Kudos to Dan Snyder and Vinny Cerrato

[djnemo65]

Originally Posted by memphisskin

I think the issue with Zorn is his experience level, the three coaches you mentioned had been coordinators before and Turner and Phillips had been head coaches at multiple stops. I don't mean to be pessimistic, but rather realistic. We all saw what happened when Saunders first installed his offense, there are going to be hiccups.

Tomlin was a coordinator for exactly one year. I would say that, if its true that the Skins hired someone whose lack of experience precludes him from immediate success, then Vinny and Dan don't deserve any kudos at all. I for one am willing to give both them and Zorn the benefit of the doubt, and everything I have heard from training camp suggests that Zorn has hit the ground running.

By your reasoning we would be much better off with Fassel now, who achieved more with the Giants than either Phillips or Turner ever did with their former teams. Personally, while "hiccups" are perhaps inevitable, I don't lament us passing on Fassel for Zorn. I also think that, had we gone with Fassel, the exact same people would be complaining now.

[memphisskin]

Originally Posted by djnemo65

Tomlin was a coordinator for exactly one year. I would say that, if its true that the Skins hired someone whose lack of experience precludes him from immediate success, then Vinny and Dan don't deserve any kudos at all. I for one am willing to give both them and Zorn the benefit of the doubt, and everything I have heard from training camp suggests that Zorn has hit the ground running.

By your reasoning we would be much better off with Fassel now, who achieved more with the Giants than either Phillips or Turner ever did with their former teams. Personally, while "hiccups" are perhaps inevitable, I don't lament us passing on Fassel for Zorn. I also think that, had we gone with Fassel, the exact same people would be complaining now.

I would be happy to debate Zorn-Tomlinson-Phillips and the whole Fassel fiasco, but this thread is about kudos to Vinny and Danny, which I think is a little premature. The results of this draft won't be known for a couple of years, but we already know that we didn't address the defensive or offensive lines, which are both old.

Judging the offseason as a whole, including the coaching search, its seems that this thread is much ado about nothing. We were finally quiet in free agency, but we did nothing to address the holes on our offensive and defensive lines. Our coaching search took a month, we hired an offensive coordinator (who I thought would be an excellent QB coach for Campbell) before a head coach and then turned around and acted like we had our guy the whole time. I want to see the Skins win, we'll see if that happens this year or not but I'm not ready to go sucking on everybody's popsicles just because Dan didn't write any checks for one summer.

[Paintrain]

Originally Posted by memphisskin

I would be happy to debate Zorn-Tomlinson-Phillips and the whole Fassel fiasco, but this thread is about kudos to Vinny and Danny, which I think is a little premature. The results of this draft won't be known for a couple of years, but we already know that we didn't address the defensive or offensive lines, which are both old.

Judging the offseason as a whole, including the coaching search, its seems that this thread is much ado about nothing. We were finally quiet in free agency, but we did nothing to address the holes on our offensive and defensive lines. Our coaching search took a month, we hired an offensive coordinator (who I thought would be an excellent QB coach for Campbell) before a head coach and then turned around and acted like we had our guy the whole time. I want to see the Skins win, we'll see if that happens this year or not but I'm not ready to go sucking on everybody's popsicles just because Dan didn't write any checks for one summer.

What holes exist on the OL that needed filling? We drafted a backup C/G in Rienhart and have Heyer & Wade to backup at tackle. Hopefully we don't need them as much as they played last year, but if so it wasn't a disaster.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

What holes exist on the OL that needed filling? We drafted a backup C/G in Rienhart and have Heyer & Wade to backup at tackle. Hopefully we don't need them as much as they played last year, but if so it wasn't a disaster.

And Erasmus James could prove to be a steal as well. I think it's odd to say that to give kudos is premature, and then say we already know they didn't address the line without even seeing the players step on the field.

[Paintrain]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

And Erasmus James could prove to be a steal as well. I think it's odd to say that to give kudos is premature, and then say we already know they didn't address the line without even seeing the players step on the field.

I'm not going to tell you again to stop using logic and common sense on a message board. You know better.

[Schneed10]

Too many posts to respond to by quoting, so I'll do it all here:

1) The change from Gibbs to Zorn could very well be an upgrade on offense, who knows. But I promise you, not in the motivational category. Gibbs' December record was crazy. Let's not forget that we were a very mediocre team until Taylor died and Gibbs willed the team forward, and Collins came in to execute a system he's been in long enough to teach it at Harvard.

2) Wade Phillips and Mike Tomlin, huh. Let's see, what do they have in common? Oh yeah, they took over a team with unquestioned leaders at QB who had kick-ass seasons in their recent pasts. The year before Wade took over, Romo started 10 games after taking over for Bledsoe, getting red hot, and posting a QB rating of 95. Tomlin took over a team that went 8-8 the year before and guided them to a 10-6 record a year later. That 8-8 season, Roethlisberger was coming off his career worst season. Reason? He had Hines Ward and a bunch of chumps to throw to. Last year Tomlin takes over, and Santonio Holmes and Heath Miller grow out of their rookie seasons into decent targets. Point being, give an established QB like Big Ben multiple reliable targets, and he's going to do well. Norv Turner? He took over Phillip Rivers, who's nothing to write home about. Maybe that's why the Chargers took a step back last year in regular season record. They still made the playoffs because they easily have the most talent in the NFL. They made the playoffs DESPITE Norv.

Let's think about another instant success. Sean Payton... Drew Brees.

Point being? What do we have at QB? A question mark, that's what. Campbell is promising, but it's not like taking over a real strong QB situation. Phillips, Tomlin, and Payton aren't comparable situations. It's not fair to Zorn.

[memphisskin]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

What holes exist on the OL that needed filling? We drafted a backup C/G in Rienhart and have Heyer & Wade to backup at tackle. Hopefully we don't need them as much as they played last year, but if so it wasn't a disaster.

OK, maybe saying "holes" on the o-line is a bit strong, although there's a reason Pete Kendall didn't get a long term deal from the Jets and I'm guessing it rhymes with Darthritis Peas.

[memphisskin]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

And Erasmus James could prove to be a steal as well. I think it's odd to say that to give kudos is premature, and then say we already know they didn't address the line without even seeing the players step on the field.

I think you just proved my point about kudos SS. The Vikings had WAIVED James, meaning he was going to be free to sign with any team but we had to have him so we ended up trading for him. So instead of signing him AFTER he cleared waivers we trade a 7th round pick for him and hope he turns out? I think we agree that we need an upgrade at DE over Daniels, I just don't think that EJ is going to be that. Danny & Vinny getting kudos for this offseason really shows me how awful their past offseasons have been. DE has been a problem since Charles Mann retired, but we haven't drafted a DE before the 6th round since 1997? I'm not withholding kudos, I'm about to start booing!

[djnemo65]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Too many posts to respond to by quoting, so I'll do it all here:

1) The change from Gibbs to Zorn could very well be an upgrade on offense, who knows. But I promise you, not in the motivational category. Gibbs' December record was crazy. Let's not forget that we were a very mediocre team until Taylor died and Gibbs willed the team forward, and Collins came in to execute a system he's been in long enough to teach it at Harvard.

2) Wade Phillips and Mike Tomlin, huh. Let's see, what do they have in common? Oh yeah, they took over a team with unquestioned leaders at QB who had kick-ass seasons in their recent pasts. The year before Wade took over, Romo started 10 games after taking over for Bledsoe, getting red hot, and posting a QB rating of 95. Tomlin took over a team that went 8-8 the year before and guided them to a 10-6 record a year later. That 8-8 season, Roethlisberger was coming off his career worst season. Reason? He had Hines Ward and a bunch of chumps to throw to. Last year Tomlin takes over, and Santonio Holmes and Heath Miller grow out of their rookie seasons into decent targets. Point being, give an established QB like Big Ben multiple reliable targets, and he's going to do well. Norv Turner? He took over Phillip Rivers, who's nothing to write home about. Maybe that's why the Chargers took a step back last year in regular season record. They still made the playoffs because they easily have the most talent in the NFL. They made the playoffs DESPITE Norv.

Let's think about another instant success. Sean Payton... Drew Brees.

Point being? What do we have at QB? A question mark, that's what. Campbell is promising, but it's not like taking over a real strong QB situation. Phillips, Tomlin, and Payton aren't comparable situations. It's not fair to Zorn.

Well it goes without saying that those of us who are optimistic about next season are absolutely assuming Campbell will develop into the player we think he can be: a legitimate winning NFL starting quarterback. To argue that, should our QB not take some significant steps forward over the course of the next year we will be in trouble, is one thing. To argue that the change at coach somehow precludes this is another entirely. I for one think that our offense will be improved next year, and thus remain optimistic.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

What did Philly do to leapfrog over the Skins?

I didn't think we were better than them last year. I'd say we were about even. Now we've lost #21, they've added Samuel, plus we're learning a new offense and all the old guys that we're really counting on are a year older. And right now they've got a better QB.

[memphisskin]

After a good night's sleep and a big glass of Kool-Aid (what happened to the Kool Aid avatar btw?) here's my new view on D&V.

You know what, screw it. The right side of our line is back, Zorn is going to find a way to get Portis and Betts involved in the passing game, and Campbell has another year under his belt. Maybe the FO did need to take a reprieve and let the jet cool for a summer. The one thing D&V deserve kudos for is that they have done nothing to overshadow Coach Zorn, they are letting him do his thing and they went out and got him the weapons he needs to run his offense.

Smootsmack, you are absolutely right on James, he could be a steal and if not he only cost us a 7th round pick next year so its worthwhile. I have been anti-VC for so long that I am just accustomed to panning everything he does, I will give him and the team a chance. And they do deserve kudos for not trying to win their 8th consecutive Summer Super Bowl title. I see the o-line being a force, Jason Campbell spreading the ball, and Clinton Portis running buck wild. I'm officially on board!

[MTK]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

I didn't think we were better than them last year. I'd say we were about even. Now we've lost #21, they've added Samuel, plus we're learning a new offense and all the old guys that we're really counting on are a year older. And right now they've got a better QB.

I think it's fair to say the Eagles have their share of question marks as well. McNabb's health being the main one. He's already missed some time this offseason with a sore shoulder.

-They have some potential drama brewing with Sheppard still on the roster.

-They still don't scare anyone at WR.

-Westbrook is a gamer but he's also inching towards 30 and with his workload a breakdown could come at any time.

[Paintrain]

Originally Posted by memphisskin

OK, maybe saying "holes" on the o-line is a bit strong, although there's a reason Pete Kendall didn't get a long term deal from the Jets and I'm guessing it rhymes with Darthritis Peas.

SO drafting his eventual (either this year or next) replacement wasn't addressing that need?

** Sorry, posted this before reading your response just above.. Was arguing with the GF until 3am so I'm still a bit feisty! **

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by djnemo65

Well it goes without saying that those of us who are optimistic about next season are absolutely assuming Campbell will develop into the player we think he can be: a legitimate winning NFL starting quarterback. To argue that, should our QB not take some significant steps forward over the course of the next year we will be in trouble, is one thing. To argue that the change at coach somehow precludes this is another entirely. I for one think that our offense will be improved next year, and thus remain optimistic.

On the bolded part, I vehemently disagree. The fact that Campbell has not yet established himself as a stud QB, COMBINED with the fact that he'll be working under a new coach in a new system in Zorn, reduces the chances that the offense will click successfully in year 1.

Because with Brees, Payton got a QB who already had a stud season. With Roethisberger, Tomlin got a guy who had led his team to a SB win. With Romo, Wade got a guy who set the world on fire in the final 10 games of the previous season.

Turner? He got an up and coming QB in Rivers, who hadn't yet arrived. What happened? The coaching change resulted in a worse record than the year before. Now when you've got that line, plus Tomlinson, plus that defense, you can still make the playoffs. But the Redskins don't have SD's talent to get them through the flux of a coaching change.

There's not a lot of precedence for instant success when you combine a new head coach with a not-yet-established NFL QB. Can you think of any recently? I can't.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by memphisskin

After a good night's sleep and a big glass of Kool-Aid (what happened to the Kool Aid avatar btw?) here's my new view on D&V.

You know what, screw it. The right side of our line is back, Zorn is going to find a way to get Portis and Betts involved in the passing game, and Campbell has another year under his belt. Maybe the FO did need to take a reprieve and let the jet cool for a summer. The one thing D&V deserve kudos for is that they have done nothing to overshadow Coach Zorn, they are letting him do his thing and they went out and got him the weapons he needs to run his offense.

Smootsmack, you are absolutely right on James, he could be a steal and if not he only cost us a 7th round pick next year so its worthwhile. I have been anti-VC for so long that I am just accustomed to panning everything he does, I will give him and the team a chance. And they do deserve kudos for not trying to win their 8th consecutive Summer Super Bowl title. I see the o-line being a force, Jason Campbell spreading the ball, and Clinton Portis running buck wild. I'm officially on board!

On a slightly related note, Clayton picked Portis as the NFC East's Most Improved Veteran in 2008. I don't really even know what he meant by that. But it sounds pretty awesome!