08' Mercedes C-Class v.s. '08 Infiniti G35 Sedan

[EternalEnigma21]

Originally Posted by jsarno

Just remember they pay A LOT less for that car...invoice is not actually what they pay even though they will lie and tell you that. They likely pay about 3k less for it.

I know you want to believe that, but its not true. dealer holdback avgs 2% of invoice (ie 20k car = 400 bucks) and there' usually something called wholesale financial reserve, which usually equals about 1%. Some manufacturers are different, but this is the case with toyotas and hondas...



I always hated it when people came in and tried to act so sly and told me all about the business when they knew jack shit. One of the main reasons I left the business was that car buyers can turn into major dick-holes and will not allow honest salespeople to make a living.


Invioce DOES reflect the exact amount that the dealer strokes a check for, but they get refunded the amounts for holdback and financial reserve...

so its a deception, but you wouldn't believe how many people actually expect you to take a loss on a vehicle when they purchase one...



ladybrave, shop online and get a quote for what you want. dealing online will get you the best deal, and assure that you get the exact car you want without having to settle for something in someones inventory.

If you're not physically there looking at a new car (that isn't even what you had in mind in the first place) you have alot more bargaining chips.

use dealer's pricing against one another, but remember, the 2008 accord is a newly redesigned car, and hondas tend to sell for sticker when they first come out, even moreso than other manufacturers... you may have to wait a bit before you get your deal, but thats sometimes the price you pay to be the first on the block with the new toy.

if you get it for a few hundred bucks over invoice, you're doing great.

2008 Honda Accord optional equipment at Edmunds

edmunds is saying they're selling for sticker, but you may be able to find a deal at a mega volume store...

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by jsarno

You know...now that you mention it, I have never heard anything bad about a focus (other than personal opinions about power and style). I haven't heard anything bad about a Fusion either, but to be fair, I don't know a single person that owns one, or even rented one. All other Ford vehicles I have strong negative opinions of due to several people / vehicles and my own experience with Ford.

Ford is really doing a good job with their development lately. Most of their intros over the last 5-7 years have been very solid cars. The Focus is a good car and really has a lot of value for the money and everyone I know is almost raving about the Fusion. If GM could put some cars out like Ford the perception of US cars would change. It would take a while for a new image to take hold but it would change. I think any of the well rated Fords are good bets.

[EternalEnigma21]

Originally Posted by jsarno

Call another Honda dealership and ask for a sales person, when you get one, write down his name and ask him if he has any BMW 3 series, he obviously won't, but now you have his name. So when you talk to your salesman, say, "so and so from DC Honda told me he'll have my car ready for only $650 over invoice, so either you drop it to $500 over invoice RIGHT now, I'll buy, if not, I'm going over there. You have 5 minutes to make a decision."

i wouldn't deal with guys like that.... my fav. line was, "well, it looks like we're not going to do business but we'll leave friends... or you'll leave and drive to another dealer and start all over with this crap... I'll just stay here for the next customer to come to me within the next five minutes, and maybe I'll have better luck" and shake your hands.

bullying salesmen works on new guys and scared salespeople, but the old pro's will only try harder and harder to screw you... the guys who are seriously trying to make a career out of car sales won't waste alot of time with someone if they cant find a common playing field...

I did business a little different, though. I had the HIGHEST CSI (customer satisfaction index) for 3 years in the store that had the highest scores in the northern VA area, and 75th in the nation, because I didn't jerk customers around, but had the self respect not to put up with the games people play either...

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by canthetuna

I know you want to believe that, but its not true. dealer holdback avgs 2% of invoice (ie 20k car = 400 bucks) and there' usually something called wholesale financial reserve, which usually equals about 1%. Some manufacturers are different, but this is the case with toyotas and hondas...



I always hated it when people came in and tried to act so sly and told me all about the business when they knew jack shit. One of the main reasons I left the business was that car buyers can turn into major dick-holes and will not allow honest salespeople to make a living.


Invioce DOES reflect the exact amount that the dealer strokes a check for, but they get refunded the amounts for holdback and financial reserve...

so its a deception, but you wouldn't believe how many people actually expect you to take a loss on a vehicle when they purchase one...



ladybrave, shop online and get a quote for what you want. dealing online will get you the best deal, and assure that you get the exact car you want without having to settle for something in someones inventory.

If you're not physically there looking at a new car (that isn't even what you had in mind in the first place) you have alot more bargaining chips.

use dealer's pricing against one another, but remember, the 2008 accord is a newly redesigned car, and hondas tend to sell for sticker when they first come out, even moreso than other manufacturers... you may have to wait a bit before you get your deal, but thats sometimes the price you pay to be the first on the block with the new toy.

if you get it for a few hundred bucks over invoice, you're doing great.

2008 Honda Accord optional equipment at Edmunds

edmunds is saying they're selling for sticker, but you may be able to find a deal at a mega volume store...

I'm with you on this. I like to get a deal but I also don't begrudge the salesperson trying to do their job and make a profit. The dealership is a profit making venture. I know car dealers have bad reps but I'd imagine a good percentage of them are just as honest as anyone.

[mredskins]

Originally Posted by canthetuna

i wouldn't deal with guys like that.... my fav. line was, "well, it looks like we're not going to do business but we'll leave friends... or you'll leave and drive to another dealer and start all over with this crap... I'll just stay here for the next customer to come to me within the next five minutes, and maybe I'll have better luck" and shake your hands.

bullying salesmen works on new guys and scared salespeople, but the old pro's will only try harder and harder to screw you... the guys who are seriously trying to make a career out of car sales won't waste alot of time with someone if they cant find a common playing field...

I did business a little different, though. I had the HIGHEST CSI (customer satisfaction index) for 3 years in the store that had the highest scores in the northern VA area, and 75th in the nation, because I didn't jerk customers around, but had the self respect not to put up with the games people play either...

Dude my heart goes out to you I don't know how you could work in that business. So many assholes. Seriously if you are a educated buyer no one is going to screw you. There is no need to go into the dealership like you are going to do battle, they tell you a price if you don't like it walk out. No need to go back and fourth waste of time.

When I bought my 04 Accord I went to Brown Honda in Fairfax, they could have given two shits about me or my needs. So I politely said thanks but no thanks and head off to Rosethale in Tysons. Very nice people spent lots of time with me showing me the diffrent cars and which would work best for my finicial needs and personal driving needs. Halfway thur the process Brown honda calls me and offers me the same car as Rosenthal for $200 less, I told them politely no thanks I will pay a few extra dollars to a dealership that seems to guienly care about my needs.

When buying new cars espically hondas and toyotas there is very little room for huge discounts. I personally would rather go to the dealership have a nice experience, not get ripped off (educated buyer), and come home with the car I want.

[Daseal]

Canthetuna -- at the same time, many car salesman are real dick holes to. We went to a dealership to look at cars, we said from the very start we would NOT buy today, and we were simply driving to compare cars. After we left the dealership, the salesman would not stop calling us. Three times a day for a week, even after we said if we decide to buy the car, we won't be buying it from you.

I hate aggressive salesmen. You're much more likely to get my sale if you let me browse and let me come to you.

[EternalEnigma21]

Originally Posted by Daseal

Canthetuna -- at the same time, many car salesman are real dick holes to. We went to a dealership to look at cars, we said from the very start we would NOT buy today, and we were simply driving to compare cars. After we left the dealership, the salesman would not stop calling us. Three times a day for a week, even after we said if we decide to buy the car, we won't be buying it from you.

I hate aggressive salesmen. You're much more likely to get my sale if you let me browse and let me come to you.

yeah there's a double edged sword with the calling people after the non-sale... I used to discuss phone calls before people left in order to set up expectations with them...

if they told me not to call them, i would't but I would always ask if I could call and check up with them, and try to have something else to let them know...

I've had alot of customers, though, call managers, or had managers call random customers (as the good ones do) etc.. and complain that they were'nt contacted and they felt that the salesman didn't want their business since they weren't followed up with. that happens more than you can imagine and that will get a salesman fired...

Having said that, even being in sales I hate agressive salespeople myself. Especially furniture shopping... I don't know what it is about shopping for furniture. I don't think I really need a salesman to help me pick out a couch or table, and don't like them lurking when my wife and I are talking about our decor and budget... they really piss me off.

A car, or even high end electronics I completely understand and welcome help (as long as its insightful and professional) but a fucking chair? Get a real job!

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by canthetuna

I know you want to believe that, but its not true. dealer holdback avgs 2% of invoice (ie 20k car = 400 bucks) and there' usually something called wholesale financial reserve, which usually equals about 1%. Some manufacturers are different, but this is the case with toyotas and hondas...

Sound like a car salesman if you ask me.
I know the #1 salesman for the GM dealership out here, AND I know the owner of the dealership, and we have discussed this. I know for a fact that you are incorrect. (at least on GM cars) I have never bought a toyota or honda, but I find it hard to believe that GM cars are that much different from Toyota's and Hondas.

Don't give me that sob story about needing to make a living. Have you, or have you not skrewed people with high prices?

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by canthetuna

Having said that, even being in sales I hate agressive salespeople myself. Especially furniture shopping... I don't know what it is about shopping for furniture. I don't think I really need a salesman to help me pick out a couch or table, and don't like them lurking when my wife and I are talking about our decor and budget... they really piss me off.

A car, or even high end electronics I completely understand and welcome help (as long as its insightful and professional) but a fucking chair? Get a real job!

I worked for a furniture company for 3 years as their credit and collections manager. I had to start that from the ground up. The sales people there were good people, but like you said, they needed to make a living. I watched as even the owner skrewed his own relatives. He would tell them a certain price and say "that's what I paid for it". When in fact he paid about 50% less than that for it. The lowest furniture has about a 50% mark up on it, the decent furn. has about a 75% mark up, and the high end can be anywhere from 100%-200% depending on where you are.
It's a lot harder to sell furniture than it is to sell cars. Even if you do pull off a decent sale it doesn't go very far.
A good salesman will tell you what you want to hear, while they may be good people, they are ruthless when dealing with them because it is their finnacial well being you are messing with. All sales people have to be underhanded at some point to be effective. It's a shame, but it's true. Money does that to people.

[EternalEnigma21]

Originally Posted by jsarno

Sound like a car salesman if you ask me.
I know the #1 salesman for the GM dealership out here, AND I know the owner of the dealership, and we have discussed this. I know for a fact that you are incorrect. (at least on GM cars) I have never bought a toyota or honda, but I find it hard to believe that GM cars are that much different from Toyota's and Hondas.

Don't give me that sob story about needing to make a living. Have you, or have you not skrewed people with high prices?

Wow... its amazing that you have this insight that even third party websites, whose sole purpose is to inform the public of the inner workings of car dealerships, such as edmunds.com, kbb.com, and nada.com don't have access to. Hell I worked in the business on and off for over 5 years and didn't know all of the things you're telling me now....

As far as GM's go, I know there's actually less markup now then there was 3 years ago, because when GM ran a campaign to lower all of their MSRPs on their cars (as some of you will remember) a few years ago after their "employee pricing" thing, there's actually less markup in the GMs.

However, there are times when GM will give factory to dealer incentives (dealer cash) for certain units that do not have to be given directly to customers, and can be either included to make a deal, or are awarded to the dealer as profit...

these vary month to month and per unit and are far more common, and generally far greater values when it comes to domestics.

I think its great you had a conversation one time with a car salesman and now you are an auto industry expert. I was only a consistant top 5 salesman, Toyota Certified Expert, Toyota Truck Champion, and Internet Sales Manager for a few years. I saw the books and where money went.

I'll never talk about the secret society I joined and the oaths I took to never enlighten anyone about the inner secrets of the brotherhood, even when I left the business and had no reason not to tell the absolute truth about the things I experienced...


and to answer your question, NO. I never screwed anyone. Not to say that there handn't been instances where someone could've bought a car for less than what they did, but thats in all walks of business. I'm sure someone could pay someone less for what you do, but that doesn't mean you're screwing them...

My manufacturer allowed for 5-15% profit on vehicles from cost to MSRP and I never sold a car for more than MSRP. Compare that to most comsumer products, or even homes and who's screwing who?

[EternalEnigma21]

Originally Posted by jsarno

A good salesman will tell you what you want to hear, while they may be good people, they are ruthless when dealing with them because it is their finnacial well being you are messing with. All sales people have to be underhanded at some point to be effective. It's a shame, but it's true. Money does that to people.

you're dead wrong and you're stereotyping. there are salesmen who will honestly try to meet a customers needs and make sure that their experience is pleasant. these salespeople believe they will actually earn a commission instead of tricking someone into paying one.

you've got a very bleak outlook on things.

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by canthetuna

you're dead wrong and you're stereotyping. there are salesmen who will honestly try to meet a customers needs and make sure that their experience is pleasant. these salespeople believe they will actually earn a commission instead of tricking someone into paying one.

you've got a very bleak outlook on things.

It really is a shame that you think that way. I am not talking about something that is foriegn, in fact, if you do a simple google search about dealer cost you come up with sites like these:
Find Out MSRP, Invoice Price, And The Actual Price Of Your Desired Car, Step Three of NewCarInsider.com

Look at this quote:
Dealer Holdback
About 2% to 5% of MSRP cost is held back by the manufacturer of the car, and will be given to the dealer when the dealer actually sells the car. This amount does not depend on how many cars the dealer sells.

Action: Subtract this amount from the Invoice Price.

Hmmmmm, so assume a 25k car, that's $500 to $1250.

Here's another quote:
Factory To Dealer Cash
About $300 to $2000 per car is given back to the dealer to sell slow selling cars. (If the manufacturer has not made this factory rebate known to the public, the car dealers are not required to pass you this saving.)

Action: If the dealer has over 30 cars similar to the ones you are seeking to purchase, and these cars have been sitting on the lot for over 25 days, there may be manufacturer incentives that drive the Actual Cost down. Ask the dealer about his dealership's quantity of cars your seek, and factor in this information into calculating the Actual Car Cost.

That's already $1000-$3000, and that's not all the incentives yet.
SO if you actually know what you're talking about, why did all the car dealerships sell their cars at UNDER invoices, often times $500 under if invoice is what they paid? What marketing genius thought of selling their product for less than what they pay for?

You can attack me all you want sir, but like I said, there are thousands of sites YOU CAN SEARCH that will tell you exactly what I am telling you. You were a salesman, you likely did not see the truth.

ps- if you have ever sold a vehicle at MSRP, then you skrewed someone and you lied to me. Salesmen are out for themselves and you know it. How can they not be? It's their salary...the more they squeeze out of me, the more that goes in their pockets.
Shit, you need to take sales CLASSES on how to learn to combat people's concerns and pitches. What do you think those classes are for? To be as nice as possible to clients?

I didn't say a salesman won't try to meet a customer's needs...of course they will need to (ie: power windows, DVD player etc) because if they don't, then it's no sale, but when it comes to talking turkey, the salesman will try to squeeze every penny out of you. How you can deny that is laughable.

I'm sure you're right about some sales people being honest and caring...those are the ones that can't take doing the job and quit eventually...or not hit quota and quit.

So please don't give me your speech, I proved with a simple link that you are wrong, and there are plenty more where that came from. Maybe it's cause your are too close to the situation to see the truth...I don't know, but do a little research buddy, you might be enlightened.

In the end, there is MSRP, invoice, and then what the dealer actually pays. This is common knowledge, and easily found.

[saden1]

Not all sales people are out to shake you down. The guy that sold me my last car was a complete professional and he really cared about what I wanted and what I could actually afford (imagine that!). He even gave me some life lesson type info while we waited for financing to go through. He's probably retired by now but there's no question, the guy really wanted to take care of his customers.

[EternalEnigma21]

wow.. if you read my posts, I actually spell out all of what is on these websites. holdback avg.s 2%, wholesale financial reserve 1% sometimes there's dealer cash etc...

what's pissing me off is that you are completely generalizing people based on a profession, and attacking my credibility based on the fact that you shouldn't trust me because I sold cars, when everything I'm saying is absolutely true, then you post a website that basically says the same thing I'm saying... how does that prove me wrong?

On top of that Ladybrave is looking at a 25k accord and you're telling her the dealer buys them for around 3k under invoice. You are mistaken and adamantly misguiding expectations based on your unwarranted distrust.

Personally I'm done wasting time and cyber-space on this issue, as it has become more of a private issue, not a public discussion, and I apologize to all that have been exposed to a drawn out debate that you had no stake in, but I did feel a need to defend myself, as my character was attacked undeservingly.

[Monkeydad]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Buster, that story you told about the Toyota Avalon's engine seems to indicate the Toyota engineers are complete and utter morons. It's as if you think Elmo and Big Bird built the car.

That story is so sensational that it can't possibly be true. Just about every test you see done by consumer reports consistently rates Toyotas amongst the most reliable out there. By the way, I'm not a car enthusiast or anything, but you have to give the nod to consumer reports when it comes to testing just about anything. Their methods are precise, well-funded, and extremely scientific.

But I was really talking about comfort anyway. My father has an Avalon, I swear it's like riding in a battleship (assuming battleships have really big and comfortable seats with tons of leg room).

On some forums and by the Toyota rep she spoke to on the phone, this is far from a fluke/ It has happened to a lot of Avalons and Toyota knows about it, but they have not and will not do a recall. Hopefully they'll fix the future ones, but if you have one of the wet-vac versions, you'll be taking your chances with it. I'm sure it IS a comfortable car. For the price, it better be.