Sally J.'s latest is spot on

[Spence]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

What matters is that you simply believe what you want to believe. Snyder could die today, we could go 1-15 for the next 10 years and you'd probably still say "Well Snyder is the one making the personnel decisions." And whatever you think of Cerrato (and Scott Campbell and Morocco Brown) what do you think they've been doing their adult lives? Do you think they were plucked from playing the piano at Nordstrom's?

No, I'm pretty sure I would not decide that a corpse is making the personnel decisions for the Washington Redskins. Yes, I'm pretty sure of that. As for Vinny Cerrato, Scott Campbell and Morocco Brown, I don't know what they've been doing their entire adult lives, but I know what they have not been doing: Building Super Bowl champions. And by the way, I believe what the facts tell me to believe.

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

It's divided into two opposing camps. One camp that is frustrated at the .455 winning percentage, wants to win the Super Bowl, accepts that as a franchise we have made mistakes, realizes that we have also made wise decisions, recognizes that perception is not always reality, understands that past ownership had its "flaws", realizes this ownership isn't going anywhere anytime soon, and doesn't assume what this ownership group does and what other owners do...the other camp believes what they want to believe

You're right, perception is not always reality. You know what IS reality? Reality. And the reality is a .455 losing percentage. Reality is losing to the Lions and then having a coach tell the public that the team is improving. Reality is watching every team in the NFC East win a division championship, except the Redskins, since Dan Snyder started making decisions. Reality is cutting Brian Mitchell so the team could rent 9-toe Deion Sanders for one season. That is the savage, inevitable, remorseless reality.

I certainly accept that past ownership has its flaws. Past ownership hired Norv Tuner and continued to employ him for years after it was abundantly clear that he was a poor head coach and a godawful talent evaluator. If Dan Snyder has made one good decision it was firing Norv Turner, though he did it at the wrong time and in the wrong way. Desmond Howard, Tom Carter, Heath Shuler, Michael Westbrook and Andre Johnson were all drafted in the first round by past ownership. It was past ownership that brought that fat, lazy pantload Dana Stubblefield to Washington. Past ownership screwed up plenty from 1992-1998.

None of that excuses Dan Snyder for what he has done. And none of that erases the three Super Bowls past ownership did win before it went senile and couldn't tell its ass from its elbow.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by Spence

No, I'm pretty sure I would not decide that a corpse is making the personnel decisions for the Washington Redskins. Yes, I'm pretty sure of that. As for Vinny Cerrato, Scott Campbell and Morocco Brown, I don't know what they've been doing their entire adult lives, but I know what they have not been doing: Building Super Bowl champions. And by the way, I believe what the facts tell me to believe.

Perhaps I was mildly hyperbolic As for Cerrato, Campbell, and Brown my point was simply that too many people say "we need to hire football guys" or "guys that have spent their adult lives studying football" Which is exactly what those three have done

You're right, perception is not always reality. You know what IS reality? Reality. And the reality is a .455 losing percentage. Reality is losing to the Lions and then having a coach tell the public that the team is improving. Reality is watching every team in the NFC East win a division championship, except the Redskins, since Dan Snyder started making decisions. Reality is cutting Brian Mitchell so the team could rent 9-toe Deion Sanders for one season. That is the savage, inevitable, remorseless reality.

Reality is also making the playoffs in two of Gibbs four years here under Snyder. Reality is drafting Cooley in the 3rd round, Mitchell in the 7th, signing London Fletcher, not signing Courtney Brown.

And reality is actually a .455 winning percentage. Which of course I'm frustrated with. Any fan would be.

I certainly accept that past ownership has its flaws. Past ownership hired Norv Tuner and continued to employ him for years after it was abundantly clear that he was a poor head coach and a godawful talent evaluator. If Dan Snyder has made one good decision it was firing Norv Turner, though he did it at the wrong time and in the wrong way. Desmond Howard, Tom Carter, Heath Shuler, Michael Westbrook and Andre Johnson were all drafted in the first round by past ownership. It was past ownership that brought that fat, lazy pantload Dana Stubblefield to Washington. Past ownership screwed up plenty from 1992-1998.

None of that excuses Dan Snyder for what he has done. And none of that erases the three Super Bowls past ownership did win before it went senile and couldn't tell its ass from its elbow.

I'm glad someone recognizes that past ownership was not perfect

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by Spence

I think it means two things.

1. The meaning of what Michael said about Snyder's role is perfectly plain;
2. Those who like Snyder do not judge him by any tangible criteria [such as wins and losses] and are therefore unlikely to be impressed by any sort of argument against him, regardless of the facts or supporting evidence.

Therefore, debates like these can be diverting for a few minutes, but are ultimately fruitless. Two people will never agree on something if they use entirely different criteria to judge that subject. People like me judge Snyder based on the available evidence -- wins and losses. People who oppose my view of Snyder judge him on other criteria. I do not pretend to know exactly what that criteria might be, but I know it isn't wins and losses.

I can appreciate the evaluation of Snyder on wins and losses. Ultimately it is a completely worthless discussion though. We acknowledge he isn't very good based on perfectly empirical evidence and then what? Nothing. We get nothing out of that other than stating the plainly obvious. What I don't appreciate are your assumptions as to WHY he isn't very good. Or more accurately I'd rather have a discussion as to the WHY and I'd like people to state what it is exactly that he does that is wrong. I can appreciate an opinion in this regard but state it plainly as an opinion. If you're stating it as a fact, like so many seem to do, then give some support for it. I don't ask this of you or anyone out a challenging spirit but rather out it out a desire for real discussion and understanding of what's wrong. For example: no one has yet convinced me, or some others apparently, that the way Snyder operates talent acquisition is all that different than anywhere else. And if it isn't all that different then maybe it isn't the problem. Maybe the problem is that Snyder isn't very good at hiring the right football people. Just throwing that out there as a hypothetical alternative. If that is the case then the argument that he needs to hire a "real football" guy to run things takes a big dent because now we're relying on a guy, who isn't good at identifying "good football people", to hire a "good football guy" to run things. In which case we're screwed. Basically I want to know WHY we're in the state we're in. And just throwing out the same old Snyder bludoblahdeblugdeblammo... isn't very insightful.

[TheMalcolmConnection]

Maybe it's a cop-out, but sometimes I just think the Redskins are the unluckiest franchise in the NFL.

I'm not going to give you a bunch of numbers or stats here, but just think about the injuries and problems we've had over the years. I mean things are the tragic, such as possibly the best safety to ever play the game being murdered, to the insanely unlucky like Portis hurting himself TACKLING someone in preseason.

Maybe it's because I don't follow other teams to know their "luck", but it's always a key injury here or a bad draft pick there that causes a problem. I don't care who you are, who would have said Desean Jackson would have been eating people up at WR? Who would have said that numerous other rookie picks by the Redskins, while serviceable, would pale in comparison to the rest of the NFC East?

Blame it on Snyder, blame it on Cerrato, blame it on Gibbs, Turner, Spurrier... I don't care who you blame it on, but it always seems this team is in a perpetual cycle of wrong place at the wrong time.

[firstdown]

I think it was Sally getting it on with Mr Irvin in the stall.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by TheMalcolmConnection

Maybe it's a cop-out, but sometimes I just think the Redskins are the unluckiest franchise in the NFL.

I'm not going to give you a bunch of numbers or stats here, but just think about the injuries and problems we've had over the years. I mean things are the tragic, such as possibly the best safety to ever play the game being murdered, to the insanely unlucky like Portis hurting himself TACKLING someone in preseason.

Maybe it's because I don't follow other teams to know their "luck", but it's always a key injury here or a bad draft pick there that causes a problem. I don't care who you are, who would have said Desean Jackson would have been eating people up at WR? Who would have said that numerous other rookie picks by the Redskins, while serviceable, would pale in comparison to the rest of the NFC East?

Blame it on Snyder, blame it on Cerrato, blame it on Gibbs, Turner, Spurrier... I don't care who you blame it on, but it always seems this team is in a perpetual cycle of wrong place at the wrong time.

[JGisLordOfTheRings]

^^^^I needed this.

Thank you so much.........

[Counter-Tre]

Speaking of things that are spot-on, who could forget Vinny Cerrato's spot-on portrayal of police seargent Antonelli in the highly underrated gem, "Kindergarten Ninja".

D.C. Sports Bog - Vinny Cerrato's First Ninja Scene

even more Vinny!

<object width="400" height="302"><param name="allowfullscreen" value="true" /><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always" /><param name="movie" value="http://vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip_...p;fullscreen=1" /><embed src="http://vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip_...p;fullscreen=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always" width="400" height="302"></embed></object><p><a href="http://vimeo.com/3454205">Untitled</a> from <a href="http://vimeo.com/user1213443">Dan Steinberg</a> on <a href="http://vimeo.com">Vimeo</a>.</p>

[DynamiteRave]

Originally Posted by TheMalcolmConnection

Maybe it's a cop-out, but sometimes I just think the Redskins are the unluckiest franchise in the NFL.

I'm not going to give you a bunch of numbers or stats here, but just think about the injuries and problems we've had over the years. I mean things are the tragic, such as possibly the best safety to ever play the game being murdered, to the insanely unlucky like Portis hurting himself TACKLING someone in preseason.

Maybe it's because I don't follow other teams to know their "luck", but it's always a key injury here or a bad draft pick there that causes a problem. I don't care who you are, who would have said Desean Jackson would have been eating people up at WR? Who would have said that numerous other rookie picks by the Redskins, while serviceable, would pale in comparison to the rest of the NFC East?

Blame it on Snyder, blame it on Cerrato, blame it on Gibbs, Turner, Spurrier... I don't care who you blame it on, but it always seems this team is in a perpetual cycle of wrong place at the wrong time.

I definitely thought of blame it on the alcohol, right away.

Milli Vanilli is a little bit before my time.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

SS great job!

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by over the mountain

Spence there is no reasoning with SS on the topic of the DS. he has his opinion, the majority of skins fans have a different one.

Count me in with SS.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by PennSkinsFan

Embraced! Ten years of losing. Kind of makes you embrace it with arms wide open.

Playoffs 1999, 2005, 2007.

[The Goat]

The article tells it exactly like it is.

"I've said it before, and I say it again more than ever: It looks to me like Snyder would rather be the center of power on a losing team than a peripheral figure on a winning one."

That is one of the most honest and cogent statements about Dan Snyder I've ever heard...it is the bottom line IMHO and Snyder apologists will write themselves in endless circles searching for an escape from that reality.

My biggest fear when it comes to my Skins is Snyder will own the team for as long as I'm alive...

[freddyg12]

Originally Posted by DynamiteRave

I definitely thought of blame it on the alcohol, right away.

Milli Vanilli is a little bit before my time.

girlfriend, you don't know what you're missin!

Then again, neither do we older ones, since MV wasn't who we thought they were!

[CRedskinsRule]

does anyone else suspect Zorn is lipsynching and it is actually Snyder sending the plays in to Campbell?