All things Middle East related

[JackLord]

Originally Posted by Giantone

.............you should be tried for treason chico.

It actually was his plan. You can take a look at the deal we signed in Doha under his administration. Should be noted that Trump as well wanted to meet with the Taliban at Camp David.

Here's what was in the agreement:

We would withdraw by May 1st (Original withdrawal deadline)
We release 5,000 Taliban fighters that were captured by us.
We lift all sanctions against the Taliban

This is what Trump said after the deal was signed:

"It's time after all these years to bring our people back home"
"time for someone else to do that work and it will be the Taliban and it could be surrounding countries"
"I really believe the Taliban wants to do something to show we're not all wasting time,"

Joe Biden has had no problem whatsoever revoking agreements and policies made by Trump as well as charting his own coarse on just about everything. He could have done so here or at least made it clear to those goons that we were getting our people out without their interference and that they best back off lest we send the B-52s their way.

Trump is blowhard and cannot find Afghanistan on a grade school map. He is also out of office.

One would expect a former Senator, former Vice-President, and Current President to do just a bit more than lay low at Camp David.

[Giantone]

Originally Posted by JackLord

Joe Biden has had no problem whatsoever revoking agreements and policies made by Trump as well as charting his own coarse on just about everything. He could have done so here or at least made it clear to those goons that we were getting our people out without their interference and that they best back off lest we send the B-52s their way.

Trump is blowhard and cannot find Afghanistan on a grade school map. He is also out of office.

One would expect a former Senator, former Vice-President, and Current President to do just a bit more than lay low at Camp David.

Like what dance in front of the TV for you like trump would, maybe have a rose garden press conference? trump is very much apart of this it was his withdrawal plan and since he is the head of the republican party and still running for Office he is relevant.

[SunnySide]

Originally Posted by JackLord

Joe Biden has had no problem whatsoever revoking agreements and policies made by Trump as well as charting his own coarse on just about everything. He could have done so here or at least made it clear to those goons that we were getting our people out without their interference and that they best back off lest we send the B-52s their way.

Trump is blowhard and cannot find Afghanistan on a grade school map. He is also out of office.

One would expect a former Senator, former Vice-President, and Current President to do just a bit more than lay low at Camp David.

Did you want to stay in Afghanistan? We sent a group to meet with the Taliban and allow the peaceful evacuation of our Embassy. All embassy personnel and diplomats have been evacuated.

We are now flying up to 5k afghan translators, contractors etc out per day.

We sent an addl 5k US troops to secure the translators, contractors evacuations.

This is what a withdrawl from a hostile country looks like.

You talk like we had diplomats killed and taken hostage.

https://www.npr.org/2021/08/16/10280...kabuls-airport

[nonniey]

Originally Posted by SunnySide

Did you want to stay in Afghanistan? We sent a group to meet with the Taliban and allow the peaceful evacuation of our Embassy. All embassy personnel and diplomats have been evacuated.

We are now flying up to 5k afghan translators, contractors etc out per day.

We sent an addl 5k US troops to secure the translators, contractors evacuations.

This is what a withdrawl from a hostile country looks like.

You talk like we had diplomats killed and taken hostage.

https://www.npr.org/2021/08/16/10280...kabuls-airport

Staying in Afghanistan would have been the correct and best decision. Already pointed out we were rarely taking casualties (Last one was in February/March 2020 timeframe) and we weren't even spending much money there anymore. Pretty sure this decision will end up costing us more in US lives and treasure than it would have if we had stayed.

[SunnySide]

Originally Posted by nonniey

Staying in Afghanistan would have been the correct and best decision. Already pointed out we were rarely taking casualties (Last one was in February/March 2020 timeframe) and we weren't even spending much money there anymore. Pretty sure this decision will end up costing us more in US lives and treasure than it would have if we had stayed.

Thats interesting .. dont see many people thinking we should have stayed.

I get the impression those ANA guys we were training for the past 20 years were just Taliban fighters.

Now we get to save our 4.9B in aid annually.
Get to stop training Taliban fighters.
Save tons of money not needing to maintain 5k or so troops plus contractors.

I just feel so bad for the woman and little girls in Kabul and the urban areas.

[nonniey]

Originally Posted by SunnySide

Thats interesting .. dont see many people thinking we should have stayed.

I get the impression those ANA guys we were training for the past 20 years were just Taliban fighters.

Now we get to save our 4.9B in aid annually.
Get to stop training Taliban fighters.
Save tons of money not needing to maintain 5k or so troops plus contractors.

I just feel so bad for the woman and little girls in Kabul and the urban areas.

As I said - I'm pretty sure leaving will ultimately will cost more in both lives and treasure (The 4.9B annually and other costs you mentioned), and significantly so. Most Americans were against lend lease in 1940-41. Good leadership sells it to them or even ignores it if they can withstand the political cost (Roosevelt did both). The best decision for US interests would have been to stay. The effects of this decision will not be localized look for China to become even more aggressive in the west Pacific.

[SunnySide]

Originally Posted by nonniey

As I said - I'm pretty sure leaving will ultimately will cost more in both lives and treasure (The 4.9B annually you mentioned), and significantly so. Most Americans were against lend lease in 1940-41. Good leadership sells it to them or even ignores it if they can withstand the political cost (Roosevelt did both). The best decision for US interests would have been to stay.

I just dont see it as being in our interest.

save lives - bc our presence would prevent some future 9/11 event?

save treasure - cant think of any way staying would save us money.

Can you explain the lives and treasure thing?

[JackLord]

Originally Posted by Giantone

Like what dance in front of the TV for you like trump would, maybe have a rose garden press conference? trump is very much apart of this it was his withdrawal plan and since he is the head of the republican party and still running for Office he is relevant.

No, at this juncture it is Joe Biden who is both President and Commander in Chief. He makes the decisions, not Donald Trump or Donald Duck.

He had the numerous options up to and including unleashing a lethal military strike on them while we extracted our people and our allies. He failed to do so.

And Jintsfan- I vote for Joe Biden. So throwing the Trump name at me is not going to do much good.

And you know damn well that if Trump were POTUS right now, you would be going completely nuts. And for good reason.

[nonniey]

Originally Posted by SunnySide

I just dont see it as being in our interest.

save lives - bc our presence would prevent some future 9/11 event?

save treasure - cant think of any way staying would save us money.

Can you explain the lives and treasure thing?

Well future terrorist events you raised (Doesn't have to be at 9/11 level - just an increased level of international terrorism). Additionally, it wouldn't surprise me that we lose some of the 5K soldiers deploying to the airport (They are in a pretty risky position/situation) and the potential exists we might actually have to reoccupy (Don't expect this but if another 9/11 occurs related to the Taliban....).

Other states/groups becoming more aggressive due to showing a weak hand (This always happens, always) will cost treasure and potentially lives depending on the situation/action. Russia getting more aggressive in the Ukraine, China in the western Pacific, Iran in the Persian Gulf, would not be surprising.

[JackLord]

Originally Posted by SunnySide

Did you want to stay in Afghanistan? We sent a group to meet with the Taliban and allow the peaceful evacuation of our Embassy. All embassy personnel and diplomats have been evacuated.

We are now flying up to 5k afghan translators, contractors etc out per day.

We sent an addl 5k US troops to secure the translators, contractors evacuations.

This is what a withdrawl from a hostile country looks like.

You talk like we had diplomats killed and taken hostage.

https://www.npr.org/2021/08/16/10280...kabuls-airport

I always thought nation building in Afghanistan was not the best of ideas.

But that is not the issue. The issue is allowing them to advance without getting our people out. At the moment, all our people are not out.

[SunnySide]

Originally Posted by JackLord

No, at this juncture it is Joe Biden who is both President and Commander in Chief. He makes the decisions, not Donald Trump or Donald Duck.

He had the numerous options up to and including unleashing a lethal military strike on them while we extracted our people and our allies. He failed to do so.

And Jintsfan- I vote for Joe Biden. So throwing the Trump name at me is not going to do much good.

And you know damn well that if Trump were POTUS right now, you would be going completely nuts. And for good reason.

If your goal is having our people and allies extracted ... that is exactly what is happening. Our embassy has been completely evacuated.

We have over 5k troops patrolling/controlling the airport while the US,France, Turkey, Britain and all these other countries fly "friendlies" out. Biggest problem is airplanes cant land bc of all the people on the tarmac. A Turkish 757 was able to land and then depart today.

Taliban is staying away from the airport, like we asked them to. 2 gunman were shot and killed today by US forces.

So far .. we are done evacuating our people and are working to get as many friendlies out for as long as the taliban will uphold this appearance of peaceful transfer.

Biggest worry is the contractors and friendlies trapped in their apartments or unable to make it to the airport.

I imagine there are some real deal US special force covert ops going on right now trying to get to some homes and evacuating those people to the airport.

[SunnySide]

Originally Posted by nonniey

Well future terrorist events you raised (Doesn't have to be at 9/11 level - just an increased level of international terrorism). Additionally, it wouldn't surprise me that we lose some of the 5K soldiers deploying to the airport (They are in a pretty risky position/situation) and the potential exists we might actually have to reoccupy (Don't expect this but if another 9/11 occurs related to the Taliban....).

Other states/groups becoming more aggressive due to showing a weak hand (This always happens, always) will cost treasure and potentially lives depending on the situation/action. Russia getting more aggressive in the Ukraine, China in the western Pacific, Iran in the Persian Gulf, would not be surprising.

'future terrorist event" ... I dont know, that seems like a future hypothetical that is impossible to answer. a future terrorist event will occur on US soil again but whether its bc we left afghanistan or not is impossible to prove.

"weak hand" ... again, these are philosophical ivory tower debates imo. When trump puled us out of Syria the same arguments were made so I guess its fair here. Although both parties presidents wanted to pull out.

"5k troops remaining to secure airport while we evacuate our friendlies" -- Im worried about that was well. Seems like taliban understands the long game and the benefit of patience. They waited 20 years knowing we would eventually leave.

They seem to be patient now as we pack up and go.

Theres a female CNN reporter on the streets and so far she was only asked to stand aside by the taliban. Next week im guessing shes tortured, raped and beheaded if shes not out of there.

I just dont see any US upside to staying.

this is very interesting seeing it play out live. i just hope we get as many people out asap. Then I have to turn my american eye blind to Kabul .. I cant handle the weight of thinking about what they will be going through. They have my heart, thoughts and prayers ... but I cant let world suffering and events get in my head otherwise I dont think I could get up out of bed.

[JackLord]

Originally Posted by SunnySide

If your goal is having our people and allies extracted ... that is exactly what is happening. Our embassy has been completely evacuated.

We have over 5k troops patrolling/controlling the airport while the US,France, Turkey, Britain and all these other countries fly "friendlies" out. Biggest problem is airplanes cant land bc of all the people on the tarmac. A Turkish 757 was able to land and then depart today.

Taliban is staying away from the airport, like we asked them to. 2 gunman were shot and killed today by US forces.

So far .. we are done evacuating our people and are working to get as many friendlies out for as long as the taliban will uphold this appearance of peaceful transfer.

Biggest worry is the contractors and friendlies trapped in their apartments or unable to make it to the airport.

I imagine there are some real deal US special force covert ops going on right now trying to get to some homes and evacuating those people to the airport.

One might think it would have been more prudent to extract everyone long before the Taliban even reach the outskirts of Kabul. Friendlies trapped in apartments is rather frightening.

I vote for Biden. I do not take pleasure in seeing him humiliated. But this is a disaster by any definition.

[mooby]

Originally Posted by JackLord

One might think it would have been more prudent to extract everyone long before the Taliban even reach the outskirts of Kabul. Friendlies trapped in apartments is rather frightening.

I vote for Biden. I do not take pleasure in seeing him humiliated. But this is a disaster by any definition.

I agree, it pains me to think about what those people and their families will face if they can't get out.

It is a failure of Biden. I am comfortable laying the blame at his feet for the poor execution of the withdrawal, and his "blame the last guy" message that the last guy made famous.

But in the end, I also agree with the decision to leave. Just wish the plan and execution had been better.

My sympathy to those who have worked their lives to affect change for the better in Afghanistan, and whose rewards will be nil - or worse - death and/or suffering.

[Chico23231]

Imagine trying to defend Biden actions as the Taliban start to impose terror upon its people.

Jfc

Also we know Americans are in the country and can’t get our. What a disgrace

This is the worst foreign policy fuck up in our lifetime.

Nope, Trump never fucked up this bad. That’s a fact.

Own it!

Adults are back in charge…imagine being this retarted