What is RG3 worth to us?

[That Guy]

bowen's solid at best? cofield isn't an NT? what team have you been watching.

you're arguing in circles, it's pointless. you're obviously right and no one knows what they're talking about, but its funny how the saints "build through the draft" but the best 2 players their team may have ever have are drew brees and sproles, both of whom signed as FAs.

and green bay traded for favre and got the first big FA ever in reggie white. I don't understand this crusade against FA signings. as long as the players are good it shouldn't matter. plenty of draft picks are horrible or bust, so why not take the best of both? it makes no sense to put artificial limits based on nothing beyond your opinion.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by CultBrennan59

I'm a better talker than typer; I'll have a long thought in my head and then say about 3/4's of it and leave out some key words. Thats just a bad habit I have; My bad.

That's a good thing to consider before you decide to grill somebody. You may now remove your foot from your own mouth.

[Dirtbag59]

These three plays represent best how I feel about RG3.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

Who is saying eschew the draft for free agency? In order to build a strong team we have to master BOTH avenues for acquiring players. So far, Shanahan has missed badly on two players, McNabb and Atogwe. Anyone else? You failed to mention the players we've added via free agency (Cofield, Bowen, Wilson) or via trade (Gaffney, Hightower, Carriker) that haven't been busts at all.

To try to put this back on track, he missed on:

-Donovan McNabb
-Larry Johnson
-O.J. Atogwe
-Mike Williams (this was just bizarre)
-Artis Hicks
-Jammal Brown
-Ma'ake Kemoeatu
-Joey Galloway
-Roydell Williams
-Rocky McIntosh
-Santana Moss
-John Beck

With the criteria that they must have signed for and underperformed (which is typically relative) for the current regime, that's a pretty exhaustive list. The questionable releases list is about 2/3rds that long.

[SkinzWin]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

To try to put this back on track, he missed on:

-Donovan McNabb
-Larry Johnson
-O.J. Atogwe
-Mike Williams (this was just bizarre)
-Artis Hicks
-Jammal Brown
-Ma'ake Kemoeatu
-Joey Galloway
-Roydell Williams
-Rocky McIntosh
-Santana Moss
-John Beck

With the criteria that they must have signed for and underperformed (which is typically relative) for the current regime, that's a pretty exhaustive list. The questionable releases list is about 2/3rds that long.

And why is Santana Moss on that list? I personally feel that Shanny had to scrap the bottom of the barrel in FA just to start patching the sh!# job Cerrato left the team in after all these years. That's why you have all these players that obviously weren't elite level talent.

[SkinzWin]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

To try to put this back on track, he missed on:

-Donovan McNabb
-Larry Johnson
-O.J. Atogwe
-Mike Williams (this was just bizarre)
-Artis Hicks
-Jammal Brown
-Ma'ake Kemoeatu
-Joey Galloway
-Roydell Williams
-Rocky McIntosh
-Santana Moss
-John Beck

With the criteria that they must have signed for and underperformed (which is typically relative) for the current regime, that's a pretty exhaustive list. The questionable releases list is about 2/3rds that long.

And why is Santana Moss on that list? I personally feel that Shanny had to scrap the bottom of the barrel in FA just to start patching the sh!# job Cerrato left the team in after all these years. That's why you have all these players that obviously weren't elite level talent. Rome wasn't built in a day.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

To try to put this back on track, he missed on:

-Donovan McNabb
-Larry Johnson
-O.J. Atogwe
-Mike Williams (this was just bizarre)
-Artis Hicks
-Jammal Brown
-Ma'ake Kemoeatu
-Joey Galloway
-Roydell Williams
-Rocky McIntosh
-Santana Moss
-John Beck

With the criteria that they must have signed for and underperformed (which is typically relative) for the current regime, that's a pretty exhaustive list. The questionable releases list is about 2/3rds that long.

Of these guys only McNabb, Beck, Atogwe, Brown and possibly Hicks were guys counted on to make a difference. The rest were, in my opinion, simply guys MS took a flyer on or stop gap folks who did not have a big impact on the ability to subsequently acquire talent (i.e. - delayed development of youth or limited flexibility in free agency). As to MS's "big" signings Wilson, Cofield and Bowen seem to have been solid signings. (Also, I disagree with your take on the M. Williams thing - he was dirt cheap and was progressing nicely until his injury and, if I recall your game analysis, was one of the better linemen when he played)(Also, did we overpay for S. Moss? Maybe, but, in light of our options at the position, I disagree that he was a "miss".

As for the questionable releases, I am sure there are a few. At the same time, every roster in the league (including ours: Jabar Gaffney, K. Lichten, L. Fletcher, W. Montgomery, S. Rocca) includes guys - either through free agency or outright release - that other teams gave up on, didn't value, etc. who later turn things around. Hell, B. Lloyd bilked a few teams before he got his act together. It happens. Has it happened here? Yup. You seem to believe it has happened to MS an inordinate amount. Without a detailed look at other rosters, I think that is a leap.

I get the "MS is not a good talent evaluator" line - that was his rap in Denver and it has followed him here after his epic fail on McNabb. At the same time, I look at the successes he has had in the last two years (Riley, Bowen, Cofield, Wilson, this year's crop of rookies, Carriker, D. Young, Gaffney (again)) and see the aquisition of some good young talent with a sprinkling of maturity.

Bottom line, while the talent management has not been exemplary, it has not sucked either. It seems to me to be somewhere near the league norm with the potential to be much better dependent upon this off season. All the "diamonds in the rough" were not retained for more development; at the same time, some were and some were acquired from other teams. Although MS/BA missed on a couple of important acquisitions, they hit on a few also. Other than the McNabb trade and the reliance on Beck/Grossman, there haven't been any other (in my opinion) epically bad moves. In fact, the trades of McNabb and Haynesworth seem to have gotten us something when nothing was expected. Further, to balance the mismanagement of the QB slot, we have just had the type of draft that may allow the sort of flexibility in talent development/acquisition that this franchise has not had in years, decades even. A follow-up draft in 2012 that even approaches the 2011 one would set right many a wrong. In fact, if the 2012 offseason talent acquisition/managemnt is a duplicate or approaches the 2011 offseason of the same, I will feel pretty damn good about this team for 2012 and beyond.

Like I said, to date, the MS/BA talent management team has, IMHO, been solid if unspectacular (with a couple of truly bad decisions) and, come this time next year, we will see if it can join the ranks of the well managed teams or if MS/BA are just are just singing the same old song to a different melody.

[CultBrennan59]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

That's a good thing to consider before you decide to grill somebody. You may now remove your foot from your own mouth.

When I'm wide awake, my thoughts get out, when its late at night, its like I said earlier. I should just grill you now for saying such a comment, instead of later tonight!


And Thank you for pointing out the other big name guys we got LJ Willie Parker Maake Kemoeatu, they were bad signings too. Luckily we didn't pay much to get them, however thats valuable roster spots which rookies could have had than those old vets.

[CultBrennan59]

Originally Posted by That Guy

bowen's solid at best? cofield isn't an NT? what team have you been watching.

you're arguing in circles, it's pointless. you're obviously right and no one knows what they're talking about, but its funny how the saints "build through the draft" but the best 2 players their team may have ever have are drew brees and sproles, both of whom signed as FAs.

and green bay traded for favre and got the first big FA ever in reggie white. I don't understand this crusade against FA signings. as long as the players are good it shouldn't matter. plenty of draft picks are horrible or bust, so why not take the best of both? it makes no sense to put artificial limits based on nothing beyond your opinion.

both those guys I've mentioned at the top have been solid guys for us this year. Our best DLineman was probably Carriker based on the fact he had, what like 6 sacks? I remember people here on this board questioning if cofield was suited for the NT spot after some of his performances in games this year. He wasn't a bad signing, nor was he that great difference maker. Over Maake who we had last year; yeah he was better. But was he the best option? No, not when Aubrayo Franklin was still out there and accepted a 1 year deal for 4 million.

And you didn't read my originial post. I said that these guys go out and get 1 to 2 free agents a year. Brees was in 2006. Sproles was 2011. Franklin was 2011. Greer and Sharper were 2009. They didn't get all these guys in one year. I'm saying you got to sprinkle in some free agency signings, not use them as the main ingredient to make your team.

Still confused? Message me because I don't feel like filling up a thread dedicated to RG3 be filled about FA talk.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by CultBrennan59

When I'm wide awake, my thoughts get out, when its late at night, its like I said earlier. I should just grill you now for saying such a comment, instead of later tonight!


And Thank you for pointing out the other big name guys we got LJ Willie Parker Maake Kemoeatu, they were bad signings too. Luckily we didn't pay much to get them, however thats valuable roster spots which rookies could have had than those old vets.

What valuable rookies? Who did we forego by signing LJ, Parker and Kemoetu? They were cheap bottom feeders. Given who was cut and who wasn't in 2009, I am not convinced they had any impact on this team's development at all. The only player I remember being of value was a A. Bryant who is still with the Eagles as 4-3 DT but who isn't even listed on their depth chart. Philadelphia Eagles 2011 Depth Chart - Base 4-3 D - ESPN.

When Belichick trades for trash like Haynesworth in hopes of a career renaissance it's hailed as brilliant. When we pick guys off the scrap heap in hopes of that they will have a career renaissance, it's "a waste of a roster space".

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by CultBrennan59

both those guys I've mentioned at the top have been solid guys for us this year. Our best DLineman was probably Carriker based on the fact he had, what like 6 sacks? I remember people here on this board questioning if cofield was suited for the NT spot after some of his performances in games this year. He wasn't a bad signing, nor was he that great difference maker. Over Maake who we had last year; yeah he was better. But was he the best option? No, not when Aubrayo Franklin was still out there and accepted a 1 year deal for 4 million.

And you didn't read my originial post. I said that these guys go out and get 1 to 2 free agents a year. Brees was in 2006. Sproles was 2011. Franklin was 2011. Greer and Sharper were 2009. They didn't get all these guys in one year. I'm saying you got to sprinkle in some free agency signings, not use them as the main ingredient to make your team.

Still confused? Message me because I don't feel like filling up a thread dedicated to RG3 be filled about FA talk.

Um....I think you might be this week's winner. Let me confer with GMScud

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

Of these guys only McNabb, Beck, Atogwe, Brown and possibly Hicks were guys counted on to make a difference. The rest were, in my opinion, simply guys MS took a flyer on or stop gap folks who did not have a big impact on the ability to subsequently acquire talent (i.e. - delayed development of youth or limited flexibility in free agency). As to MS's "big" signings Wilson, Cofield and Bowen seem to have been solid signings. (Also, I disagree with your take on the M. Williams thing - he was dirt cheap and was progressing nicely until his injury and, if I recall your game analysis, was one of the better linemen when he played)(Also, did we overpay for S. Moss? Maybe, but, in light of our options at the position, I disagree that he was a "miss".

As for the questionable releases, I am sure there are a few. At the same time, every roster in the league (including ours: Jabar Gaffney, K. Lichten, L. Fletcher, W. Montgomery, S. Rocca) includes guys - either through free agency or outright release - that other teams gave up on, didn't value, etc. who later turn things around. Hell, B. Lloyd bilked a few teams before he got his act together. It happens. Has it happened here? Yup. You seem to believe it has happened to MS an inordinate amount. Without a detailed look at other rosters, I think that is a leap.

I get the "MS is not a good talent evaluator" line - that was his rap in Denver and it has followed him here after his epic fail on McNabb. At the same time, I look at the successes he has had in the last two years (Riley, Bowen, Cofield, Wilson, this year's crop of rookies, Carriker, D. Young, Gaffney (again)) and see the aquisition of some good young talent with a sprinkling of maturity.

Bottom line, while the talent management has not been exemplary, it has not sucked either. It seems to me to be somewhere near the league norm with the potential to be much better dependent upon this off season. All the "diamonds in the rough" were not retained for more development; at the same time, some were and some were acquired from other teams. Although MS/BA missed on a couple of important acquisitions, they hit on a few also. Other than the McNabb trade and the reliance on Beck/Grossman, there haven't been any other (in my opinion) epically bad moves. In fact, the trades of McNabb and Haynesworth seem to have gotten us something when nothing was expected. Further, to balance the mismanagement of the QB slot, we have just had the type of draft that may allow the sort of flexibility in talent development/acquisition that this franchise has not had in years, decades even. A follow-up draft in 2012 that even approaches the 2011 one would set right many a wrong. In fact, if the 2012 offseason talent acquisition/managemnt is a duplicate or approaches the 2011 offseason of the same, I will feel pretty damn good about this team for 2012 and beyond.

Like I said, to date, the MS/BA talent management team has, IMHO, been solid if unspectacular (with a couple of truly bad decisions) and, come this time next year, we will see if it can join the ranks of the well managed teams or if MS/BA are just are just singing the same old song to a different melody.

I think it's more than possible that no team truly has sucky talent evaluation, and every GM in the league has a defense for keeping his job somewhere in his record. The Redskins may not be any different than the worst teams with the worst records in this aspect. I mean, Matt Millen hasn't been employed by an NFL team for three seasons, but he's still the go-to punchline for people making fun of talent evaluators. Al Davis isn't alive anymore.

I think the only main disagreements I have with you here are that we can look around the league and you'd be hard pressed to find a team that has managed its talent worse. I think a lot of fans will do analyses where they just write off everything that the Redskins did in 2010, blame it on Cerrato, and then compare the 2011 season to other teams and find out that the Redskins stack up pretty well with other teams, including other teams in their own division.

But if you go back to the start of Shanallen, I don't think any one franchise has done less with more. I think you can go out and find teams whose list of failed additions match the length of that list over the last two years, and you can find other teams who have made a number of really silly releases who have gone on to find success elsewhere. You can find teams like the Bears (in 2009), Cardinals, and Raiders who overpaid for quarterbacks just like the Redskins did. You can find successful teams who have struggled just as much over the last couple years to build a roster as the Redskins.

But I don't think we can stretch the evidence to put the Redskins into the middle of the pack over the timeframe of 2010-2012. They are, charitably, in the bottom third of the NFL in building up a roster in the last two years.

And the reason there is such a prolific misunderstanding for what the Redskins have actually accomplished is because it became so popular to put whatever went wrong in Shanahan's first year on what Cerrato had done the past two years. Look around these parts. It's still really popular to blame Cerrato for the lack of success enjoyed by Shanahan.

***

To try to support my point, I want to name other teams that have a talent issue, similar to the Redskins, that prevents them from being a winning team on the field.

-Jacksonville Jaguars
-Tampa Bay Buccaneers
-Minnesota Vikings
-Cleveland Browns
-St. Louis Rams
-Seattle Seahawks
-Buffalo Bills
-Arizona Cardinals
-Indianapolis Colts?

And I will open up the floor for anyone who wants to totally rip one or more of these teams for totally silly personnel moves that make us so lucky to have our roster and coaching staff lead by Mike Shanahan's wisdom. In the won/loss column, these teams have been just as bad as the Redskins. So if we're rebuilding the right way, we're doing stuff better than them, right?

Or at the very least, we should be able to get a list of personnel gaffes longer than those of the Redskins over the last two years, right?

[That Guy]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

To try to put this back on track, he missed on:

-Donovan McNabb
-Larry Johnson
-O.J. Atogwe
-Mike Williams (this was just bizarre)
-Artis Hicks
-Jammal Brown
-Ma'ake Kemoeatu
-Joey Galloway
-Roydell Williams
-Rocky McIntosh
-Santana Moss
-John Beck

With the criteria that they must have signed for and underperformed (which is typically relative) for the current regime, that's a pretty exhaustive list. The questionable releases list is about 2/3rds that long.

most of those guys were vet mins, which fail/wash out pretty consistently, and I also don't know how moss made that list. mcnabb and beck are obviously awful, and atogwe can't stay healthy (and hasn't played great either compared to his contract). I don't see a reason to ever pay safeties or RBs big money though unless they're like AP or sean taylor.

[CultBrennan59]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Um....I think you might be this week's winner. Let me confer with GMScud

What?

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by That Guy

most of those guys were vet mins, which fail/wash out pretty consistently, and I also don't know how moss made that list. mcnabb and beck are obviously awful, and atogwe can't stay healthy (and hasn't played great either compared to his contract). I don't see a reason to ever pay safeties or RBs big money though unless they're like AP or sean taylor.

Well, if you throw out the vet mins in Galloway, Williams, and McIntosh, that's still a pretty significant list. The reason I listed Galloway, Williams, and McIntosh but not Willie Parker is because Parker didn't make the roster, so like Bobby Wade or Mike Furrey, he's a meaningless signing. No harm done.

Moss is there because he got a new contract, then didn't have a very good year. Obviously the injury hurt. But not catching half the balls that come your way when you don't go deep anymore is not what you're looking for.