6 WEEKS AGO: Trade Ramsey, Bench/trade Gardner

[Hogskin]

Originally Posted by SUNRA

I stand corrected. Hasselbeck had 4 INTs against the 1# defense in the NFL . What games did Hasselbeck win out of the 5 ?

The only win was against the Giants. But all of the losses exept the one where TH strangely could not even hit a WALL with a ball, the losses were not his fault. They were due to a defense that was totally unable to stop a run. Hasselbeck played VERY well in all of the games but one. I sure hope he gets a shot sometime this season so we can see if he is for real. Brunell does not hurt us, but just never seems to have a big play left in him. Ramsey definitely has the big play ability, but continues to hurt the hell out of us - not by interceptions any more than by all the missed opportunities and late passes.

[Hogskin]

Originally Posted by jamf

TH stats: http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/player...e?statsId=5534
only win was against the giants. no way in hell is going to ever be a fullseason starter anywhere.

I would never say that about any young backup QB. I'm sure plenty of Atlanta fans thought that about Bret Favre before they let him get away. The simple fact is, we don't KNOW what TH's potential is yet.

Oh yeah, and some Philly fans probably thought Jurgy would never amount to anything...

[Gmanc711]

We lose one game and now its the end of the world. At this rate people are gonan wanna fire Gibbs at the end of next week

[MTK]

Originally Posted by Gmanc711

We lose one game and now its the end of the world. At this rate people are gonan wanna fire Gibbs at the end of next week

Seriously!

A win and everything is ok. A loss and the sky is falling, guys need to be cut, traded, benched, etc. Gimme a break.

[Gmanc711]

Originally Posted by Hogskin

I would never say that about any young backup QB. I'm sure plenty of Atlanta fans thought that about Bret Favre before they let him get away. The simple fact is, we don't KNOW what TH's potential is yet.

Oh yeah, and some Philly fans probably thought Jurgy would never amount to anything...

Seems like a awful lot of people in here think Ramseys not going to amount to anything. Everyones being so hipocritical, I mean this to to the upmost respect to everyone too, including hogskin. But I mean how can you all stick up for Hasslebeck and say he has potential, he has potential, and then be like, well Ramsey is just damaged goods already. Hasslebeck has so much more potential, get him in there. The simple fact is, we dont know what Ramseys potential is either. Just like they didnt knwo what Favre's was and what Jurguys was. Screw it, lets trade Ramsey, I hope he turns into a all pro qb somewhere else.

[Hogskin]

Originally Posted by Gmanc711

We lose one game and now its the end of the world. At this rate people are gonan wanna fire Gibbs at the end of next week

I am just suggesting changing 2 starters out of 22 - not armageddon. So does this mean if Gibbs DOES make these changes in the next 2-3 weeks, then YOU want him outta here? I support Gibbs no matter what happens this season. I am just projecting some changes that I think are obvious, and I think he will feel that way also. He takes his time with changes, but I really think they will happen. I'll say it one more time, the LOSS had nothing to do with this - I said all of this 6 WEEKS AGO!! Gardner always has and always will drop passes in KEY situations. (CHOKE!!) Gibbs will only tolerate it so long. And I doubt HE will be predicting the end of the world when he makes a couple changes to the starters. I wonder if you would feel so bad about the change if he benches BOWEN???? Why are you guys so hung up on Gardner and Ramsey, that you excuse their continuing, consistent, unimproving, poor play?

[Hogskin]

Originally Posted by Gmanc711

Seems like a awful lot of people in here think Ramseys not going to amount to anything. Everyones being so hipocritical, I mean this to to the upmost respect to everyone too, including hogskin. But I mean how can you all stick up for Hasslebeck and say he has potential, he has potential, and then be like, well Ramsey is just damaged goods already. Hasslebeck has so much more potential, get him in there. The simple fact is, we dont know what Ramseys potential is either. Just like they didnt knwo what Favre's was and what Jurguys was. Screw it, lets trade Ramsey, I hope he turns into a all pro qb somewhere else.

So now I'm a "hipocrit"??? Hmmm - I thought Ramsey DID get his chance - almost 2 full seasons. No improvement in obvious flaws.

[jamf]

Originally Posted by SUNRA

1.More NFL experience that Ramsey. (Throws the ball away)
2. Hasselbeck's first game as a Redskin was a victory over the Dolphins. He replaced Ramsey against a hostile Miami crowd and won.
3. Gibbs asked the question in training camp, who's that guy making those passes? He then said, we may have 3 QB's fighting for 1# spot.
4. Better footwork. Simply quicker than both Brunell and Ramsey.
5.Plays with passion. Unlike Ramsey, who looks like he's not enjoying his opportunity that few people have the priviledge to enjoy.
6. Can motivate this team to execute with confidence out of the huddle.

1: wrong. ramsey has more experience.
2: He lost his first game. but he did provide a spark and led them on a scoring drive. but that was because he had a simplified offence to run. spurrier said after the game he simplified things for him. When he tried to run the simplified offence against teams that prepared for it, HE GOT DESTROYED.

also, do you remember ramseys first game against the titans? he came into the game down 14 points and led up back to a win. http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/player...5918&year=2002
i think they had the #1 D that year. he was also sacked 5 or more times that game.

3: gibbs praises everyone in preseason. he even said mccant and jacobs will get a shot to start at WR.




4: he has good footwork and quickness, but he has the arm of elizabeth hasselbeck. arm stength isnt everything, but atleast guys like montana and even doug flutie can toss the ball 60 yards. TH cant get passed 50 yards. when you play a QB like that, the safeties just sit on the short routes becase he cant throw deep.


5: he is so passionate because he gets to bang elizabeth everyday. seriously, we see that spark every week when an underdog 3rd stringer has to to play. hell, doug flutie has built his career on that spark,he isnt starting either.


6: if coles and gardner continue to drop balls, it wont matter who we have at QB. without those drops, the game is easily won. if gardner caught that one stupid ball, we can run out the clock and make the safe throws. then then giants go into a press offence, bowen and taylor play deep and they get the INTS to close out the game not the giants.


7: stop watching "the view" and start watching some football.

[hurrykaine]

Originally Posted by SUNRA

I stand corrected. Hasselbeck had 4 INTs against the 1# defense in the NFL . What games did Hasselbeck win out of the 5 ?

Hasselback won us the Giants game last Dec - his only win as a starter. I suppose we could also credit him with the first preseason win against the Broncos in the hall of fame game, but he didn't start that one.

Just a general point....I think timing between QBs and receivers takes a lot of time to develop (unless we have a Terrell Owens or Moss who more than likely always beat their man and get open). For this reason, it is important that we not rotate the starting QB, or the receivers. Brunell is experienced enough to get it right...so we'll have a few more ugly outings in the next few weeks....so what? Until then we'll find other ways to win...running game (if Portis isn't fumble prone) or the defense.

If Brunell can't go next week, I hope they choose the QB that has the next best timing with receivers and vision and is quick with his reads - if Gibbs and co. feel Hasselback is the one that's better capable of running the offense, then so be it. However, I do think Ramsey is the one that has the better timing with Coles and Gardener since he's been here longer than anyone, and gets more reps with the 1st team offense than Hasselback. You can say he made bone head mistakes yesterday, but we got to judge him in a come-from-behind pressure situation. If he starts and the score is even, we wouldn't expect him to play so recklessly. Simply demoting him behind Hasselback based on yesterday's performance is undeserved, in my humble opinion.

Bottom line, sometimes you just gotta bow down humbly and take it up the a$$ from the alignment of the stars. Who would've thought that Portis and Brunell would reverse their respective trends of no fumbles/INTs and Warner and the Giants would get their first win in 10 starts? I supported 5 different teams in 5 different leagues/sports this weekend, and they all lost - Red Sox, US in the Ryder cup, Maryland against WVU, Skins over Giants, and India over Pakistan in cricket.

[Hogskin]

Originally Posted by hurrykaine

Bottom line, sometimes you just gotta bow down humbly and take it up the a$$ from the alignment of the stars.

LOL!!!!! Excellent point, hurry. I can not disagree with that one!! It was definitely one of those days yesterday.

[Gmanc711]

Originally Posted by Hogskin

So now I'm a "hipocrit"??? Hmmm - I thought Ramsey DID get his chance - almost 2 full seasons. No improvement in obvious flaws.

Almost two full seasons??? 6 starts in 2002 and 11 last season. With Spurrier at the helm. If you throw Joe Montana himself in our offense last season, we are still 5-11, maybe 6-10.

Jim Kelly's first season as a starter 4-12
Joe Montana's first season as a starter 2-14!!!
Peyton Mannings 3-13

Now, is Patrick Ramsey any of these guys? No. Will be be as good as any of these guys, proboly not. Does he make stupid decisions somtimes yes. Does he make good decisions too, yes. I'm just saying, cause we had one crappy season and one crappy game, lets not throw this kid out the door.

[JWsleep]

Originally Posted by hurrykaine

Bottom line, sometimes you just gotta bow down humbly and take it up the a$$ from the alignment of the stars. Who would've thought that Portis and Brunell would reverse their respective trends of no fumbles/INTs and Warner and the Giants would get their first win in 10 starts? I supported 5 different teams in 5 different leagues/sports this weekend, and they all lost - Red Sox, US in the Ryder cup, Maryland against WVU, Skins over Giants, and India over Pakistan in cricket.

Man, what a weekend! Don't worry: the worm will turn! Gibbs is a winner. He will find the way to get it done. (Don't know about the sox, though...that's a long term problem!)

[Hogskin]

Originally Posted by Gmanc711

Almost two full seasons??? 6 starts in 2002 and 11 last season. With Spurrier at the helm. If you throw Joe Montana himself in our offense last season, we are still 5-11, maybe 6-10.

Jim Kelly's first season as a starter 4-12
Joe Montana's first season as a starter 2-14!!!
Peyton Mannings 3-13

Now, is Patrick Ramsey any of these guys? No. Will be be as good as any of these guys, proboly not. Does he make stupid decisions somtimes yes. Does he make good decisions too, yes. I'm just saying, cause we had one crappy season and one crappy game, lets not throw this kid out the door.

Jim Kelly NEVER had as slow a release as Ramsey.
Joe Montana NEVER had as slow a release as Ramsey.
Peyton Manning NEVER had as slow a release as Ramsey.
Jim Kelly NEVER was as slow as Ramsey in decision-making.
Joe Montana NEVER was as slow as Ramsey in decision-making.
Peyton Manning NEVER was as slow as Ramsey in decision-making.

Jim Kelly, Joe Montana, and Peyton Manning were able to correct their faults - Ramsey has shown an inability in that area. And THAT is what has become painfully obvious, more than 25 months after he joined the team and began his tutelage.

Ramsey will not turn into Joe Montana, no matter what hopes some of us may have had.

[Gmanc711]

All I'm saying is these guys had a chance to develop, and I dont think Ramsey is being granted the same thing by us. Bottom line. I didnt call you a hypocrite (looked up the spelling on that one), I'm just saying that its werid that anyone can say that we dont know what potential Hasslebeck has, when Ramsey is in the same boat. Ramsey is clearly a better quarterback than Tim, and I just dont understand why people will stick up for him, just on the sole fact of throwing Ramsey to the wolves. No one can come here and say that Tim Hasslebeck should be starting for this team over Patrick Ramsey, and actually mean it. However, there have been quite a handful that have said that he should be the one to get the shot. Ramsey played 1 and 3/4 quarters yesterday, and people want to trade him based on that. Forget the fact he had the ball moving, forget the fact that two of those int's werent fully his fault ( the thrid one is inexcusable). We just want to get on his ass, for the sole pourpose of doing that. Again, I'm not trying to personally attack you or anything, you're one of my fav. posters and we ussually agree, but I wholeheartly 100% respectfully disagree with some of the posts people have made.

[That Guy]

We lost because of 3 INTS in the 2 half of this game.

no, we lost when the giants put up 17 points on brunell and portis in the first half, ramsey just didn't win it...

ramsey, in his last 12 games has thrown 15 TDs and 12 ints... in five games hasselbeck has thrown 5 TDs and 1 INT... that's less TDs and more INTs per game

if ramsey is bad, hasselbeck is horrible...

1.More NFL experience that Ramsey. (Throws the ball away)
2. Hasselbeck's first game as a Redskin was a victory over the Dolphins. He replaced Ramsey against a hostile Miami crowd and won.
3. Gibbs asked the question in training camp, who's that guy making those passes? He then said, we may have 3 QB's fighting for 1# spot.

1. not true
2. so what? ramsey has won games too, and besides, tim lost that game
3. he may have said that, but guess what? after that 2 int game, timmy fell back out of that competition... he never played 1st string anyways (which is harder )

5.Plays with passion. Unlike Ramsey, who looks like he's not enjoying his opportunity that few people have the priviledge to enjoy.
6. Can motivate this team to execute with confidence out of the huddle.

those are both BS, you're not in the huddle and you don't talk to them, so you don't know, sorry.

You thought Ramsey was going to grow into a great player like Tom Brady, Joey Harrington or Carson Palmer

this was quoted to matty, but joey spent a lot of time sucking before he was worth looking at, and carson sat out an entire year in his system before playing... ramsey has sat out 1 game.

shane, trading ramsey would have left us with no recourse in the event that tim also sucked... we'd be even worse off...

manning went 3-13 his first year in a new system... its not something you pick up overnight... there's no promise tim will be any better at all, so trading away depth at QB would be silly... part of the problem is the massive turnover and new systems etc, it takes time for everyone to click... its hard when all the WRs practice and get rhythm with another QB and then you get shoved in to take over and make something happen... chemistry isn't made overnight (thats for the players and the system)...

PR telegraphs plays and hold on to the ball too long, but tim has a weak arm and throws more ints and less TDs... everytime you switch out players, it just makes it harder on everyone to try and keep everything together.