Dawkins Does Denver; Fickle Philly Fans Frustrated

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by Lotus

Yet for some reason Eagles fans keep calling for McNabb's head.

Because using the same excuse for 8 years gets old. They've moved on to another argument, misguided as it is.

[tootergray34]

big mistake by the eagles. I'm glad to see him go. He was a heck of a player that played with a lot of heart. What are the eagles thinking getting rid of him and Lito?

[GMScud]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

The reason the Eagles win more often than we do isn't their front office and their scouting. The reason is the QB. Donovan McNabb is (and has been) a far better QB than anybody we've been put on the field during the past 10 years. Other than that, their front office has not acquired an appreciably greater level of talent than the Redskins have.

Their first round DTs, Bunkley and Patterson are starting to come into their own, but neither has reached the Pro Bowl, and when you're picked that high you should. Their attempts to find a TE worth a darn have been a dismal failure - franchising LJ Smith and giving him top 5 TE money? Their best offensive lineman, Shawn Andrews, has major mental problems and has trouble staying on the field. The rest of the linemen can't drive block to save their lives, and consequently the Eagles can never run the ball successfully on 3rd and 1 or 4th and 1. Their linebackers are solid, but underwhelming. Safeties and corners are underwhelming, except for Asante Samuel. And I don't think I need to get into the WRs.

The Eagles have had some success, but so have we. You have to be thrilled with Brian Westbrook in the 3rd round, just like you do with Chris Cooley. Trent Cole has developed into an impact player, just like Mike Sellers. Overall, there is nothing about the non-QB personnel that makes me think the Eagles are better than the 'Skins. And it showed last year, we swept them.

While the Redskins have made boneheaded mistakes in free agency, like Adam Archuleta, the Eagles have made the mistake of doing too little. What's the bigger crime? Having a franchise QB capable of taking you all the way, and doing NOTHING to give him a significant weapon in the passing game, even though your team has both the cash and the cap space to do so? Or shelling out as much money as the cap allows to fill out your team, but missing badly?

See, the thing is, if the Eagles were willing to spend in free agency like the Redskins, combining that with Philly's ability to avoid the blunder on such decisions, and combining that with a franchise QB? You'd have at least one Super Bowl right now, and there's no Eagle fan that doesn't feel that way right now. How can you leave your fans thinking that McNabb's great career was wasted, all because the front office wouldn't sack up and pay a receiver?

I'd rather have Danny and Vinny any day. They'll make mistakes, but at least they'll try. And hell, even a blind squirrel has to find a nut eventually. When McNabb is done in Philly and they have to rely on Kevin Kolb, that team will enter a VERY dark period.

So you say the reason they win is McNabb. Ok. They drafted him, didn't they? Bunkley and Patterson, as you say, are coming along very well. They weren't immediate stars, but the Eagles are clearly developing their talents. There's no reason to think they won't be pretty high level starters for years to come. And they drafted both of them.

Shawn Andrews definitely has some mental issues, but there weren't any red flags as far as I know when they drafted him. When his head is in the right place he's a pro-bolwer. You mentioned Trent Cole- they also drafted him in the 5th round and turned him into a stud.

They understand the game is won on the line of scrimmage and they draft accordingly. I hear your point about their struggles running on 3rd/4th and short, but keep in mind when they decide to commit to the run it usually works out really well for them. I think the majority of their struggles in the running game are more a function of how quickly Reid abandons it.

To me it seems like the main leg of your argument against their FO is the lack of a WR. But consider a few things- In the past 5 or so years they've done the following: used two high draft picks on receivers in Reggie Brown and DeSean Jackson. Brown isn't that great and gets hurt a lot, but Jackson looks to be a star in the making. They also signed TO, and he helped take them to a SuperBowl. Of course he imploded, but they still rolled the dice on a huge name for big dollars. Then they gave Kevin Curtis a pretty penny. He's been there 2 seasons. The first he had 1,100 yards and like 80 catches. Last season he was injured half the year. Don't forget they made a huge push for Randy Moss, but he chose NE. My point is they aren't ignoring the position.

They shouldn't have franchised LJ. He's garbage. But Celek looks like a solid young player. Remember he had 2tds in the NFC Championship game this year. Not bad for another 5th round pick.

The fact that Philly hasn't gotten or developed a superstar receiver for McNabb may be a crime. But not having a franchise QB (yes, I think we have one now) for more than a decade while overspending on numerous other positions when we don't have anyone worth a damn to manage the game... That's a huge crime IMO. Brad Johnson is the only exception, and he wasn't a Snyder guy. Snyder did let him walk though, and he went on to win a Super Bowl in Tampa just a few years later.

The Eagles have plenty of homegrown talent on their roster (Westbrook!). We have some great drafted players too, and nowhere have I said our FO stinks in this argument. I just maintain that I would take Philly's over ours.

[Pocket$ $traight]

I hate to say it but I feel bad for Philly fans on this one. This guy was their most popular player and really wasn't asking for that much money. I bet he would have signed for less than Denver paid but it sounded like the Eagles offered him peanuts.

Philly has had a TERRIBLE offseason to date. They lose their heart and soul along with Sheppard and Buckhalter and they have a ton of cap space! They are probably losing two other starting linemen as well. And the rumors are that if they don't sign a wideout, McNabb wants out. I can't wait until the Kevin Kolb era!

I love it as a skins fan but how awful for the Philly fans.

[Ruhskins]

Originally Posted by GMScud

So you say the reason they win is McNabb. Ok. They drafted him, didn't they? Bunkley and Patterson, as you say, are coming along very well. They weren't immediate stars, but the Eagles are clearly developing their talents. There's no reason to think they won't be pretty high level starters for years to come. And they drafted both of them.

Shawn Andrews definitely has some mental issues, but there weren't any red flags as far as I know when they drafted him. When his head is in the right place he's a pro-bolwer. You mentioned Trent Cole- they also drafted him in the 5th round and turned him into a stud.

They understand the game is won on the line of scrimmage and they draft accordingly. I hear your point about their struggles running on 3rd/4th and short, but keep in mind when they decide to commit to the run it usually works out really well for them. I think the majority of their struggles in the running game are more a function of how quickly Reid abandons it.

To me it seems like the main leg of your argument against their FO is the lack of a WR. But consider a few things- In the past 5 or so years they've done the following: used two high draft picks on receivers in Reggie Brown and DeSean Jackson. Brown isn't that great and gets hurt a lot, but Jackson looks to be a star in the making. They also signed TO, and he helped take them to a SuperBowl. Of course he imploded, but they still rolled the dice on a huge name for big dollars. Then they gave Kevin Curtis a pretty penny. He's been there 2 seasons. The first he had 1,100 yards and like 80 catches. Last season he was injured half the year. Don't forget they made a huge push for Randy Moss, but he chose NE. My point is they aren't ignoring the position.

They shouldn't have franchised LJ. He's garbage. But Celek looks like a solid young player. Remember he had 2tds in the NFC Championship game this year. Not bad for another 5th round pick.

The fact that Philly hasn't gotten or developed a superstar receiver for McNabb may be a crime. But not having a franchise QB (yes, I think we have one now) for more than a decade while overspending on numerous other positions when we don't have anyone worth a damn to manage the game... That's a huge crime IMO. Brad Johnson is the only exception, and he wasn't a Snyder guy. Snyder did let him walk though, and he went on to win a Super Bowl in Tampa just a few years later.

The Eagles have plenty of homegrown talent on their roster (Westbrook!). We have some great drafted players too, and nowhere have I said our FO stinks in this argument. I just maintain that I would take Philly's over ours.

If the Eagles front office is so great, why haven't they won a SB? I know that sounds like a stupid question/statement, but I think in this business the end goal is winning SBs, not just making to the NFC Championship or the playoffs. Multiple playoff appearances sets the expectation of a championship and Eagles have not done so, their chance are running out. Which is why I think your comparison is not fair, given the success of the Eagles as an organization, but their lack of winning it all may be seen as a success. I personally think if they had ponied up money for T.O. they would have won a championship.

I'm sure if this were a Lions website, someone would be probably praising our team for not having losing season and making it to the playoffs. And of course, for us "not having a losing season" is nice but we want to take it to the next level. So yes, the Eagles have a good front office, who knows maybe our team would have multiple playoff appearances, but having just that sets an expectation that if the team doesn't win the big one, it has not succeed.

[tryfuhl]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

The reason the Eagles win more often than we do isn't their front office and their scouting. The reason is the QB. Donovan McNabb is (and has been) a far better QB than anybody we've been put on the field during the past 10 years. Other than that, their front office has not acquired an appreciably greater level of talent than the Redskins have.

Their first round DTs, Bunkley and Patterson are starting to come into their own, but neither has reached the Pro Bowl, and when you're picked that high you should. Their attempts to find a TE worth a darn have been a dismal failure - franchising LJ Smith and giving him top 5 TE money? Their best offensive lineman, Shawn Andrews, has major mental problems and has trouble staying on the field. The rest of the linemen can't drive block to save their lives, and consequently the Eagles can never run the ball successfully on 3rd and 1 or 4th and 1. Their linebackers are solid, but underwhelming. Safeties and corners are underwhelming, except for Asante Samuel. And I don't think I need to get into the WRs.

The Eagles have had some success, but so have we. You have to be thrilled with Brian Westbrook in the 3rd round, just like you do with Chris Cooley. Trent Cole has developed into an impact player, just like Mike Sellers. Overall, there is nothing about the non-QB personnel that makes me think the Eagles are better than the 'Skins. And it showed last year, we swept them.

While the Redskins have made boneheaded mistakes in free agency, like Adam Archuleta, the Eagles have made the mistake of doing too little. What's the bigger crime? Having a franchise QB capable of taking you all the way, and doing NOTHING to give him a significant weapon in the passing game, even though your team has both the cash and the cap space to do so? Or shelling out as much money as the cap allows to fill out your team, but missing badly?

See, the thing is, if the Eagles were willing to spend in free agency like the Redskins, combining that with Philly's ability to avoid the blunder on such decisions, and combining that with a franchise QB? You'd have at least one Super Bowl right now, and there's no Eagle fan that doesn't feel that way right now. How can you leave your fans thinking that McNabb's great career was wasted, all because the front office wouldn't sack up and pay a receiver?

I'd rather have Danny and Vinny any day. They'll make mistakes, but at least they'll try. And hell, even a blind squirrel has to find a nut eventually. When McNabb is done in Philly and they have to rely on Kevin Kolb, that team will enter a VERY dark period.

Nice analysis. You have to wonder why the Eagles, with all of their space, haven't bought the players that could lead them to a championship. WR's are available year after year in the draft, by trade, etc. You'd think even investing 10 mil a year would be a great return, does the owner really covet that 10 mil more than he would potential returns?

[Giantone]

Don't know if anyone has already mention this but don't forget that the Eagles D cordinator Jim Johnson has cancer and most likely will not be back again ,he was in his 70's anyway ...I thnk

[That Guy]

that too bad for them. johnson's a good DC.

should make those games a bit easier on us though.

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

The reason the Eagles win more often than we do isn't their front office and their scouting. The reason is the QB. Donovan McNabb is (and has been) a far better QB than anybody we've been put on the field during the past 10 years. Other than that, their front office has not acquired an appreciably greater level of talent than the Redskins have.

Their first round DTs, Bunkley and Patterson are starting to come into their own, but neither has reached the Pro Bowl, and when you're picked that high you should. Their attempts to find a TE worth a darn have been a dismal failure - franchising LJ Smith and giving him top 5 TE money? Their best offensive lineman, Shawn Andrews, has major mental problems and has trouble staying on the field. The rest of the linemen can't drive block to save their lives, and consequently the Eagles can never run the ball successfully on 3rd and 1 or 4th and 1. Their linebackers are solid, but underwhelming. Safeties and corners are underwhelming, except for Asante Samuel. And I don't think I need to get into the WRs.

The Eagles have had some success, but so have we. You have to be thrilled with Brian Westbrook in the 3rd round, just like you do with Chris Cooley. Trent Cole has developed into an impact player, just like Mike Sellers. Overall, there is nothing about the non-QB personnel that makes me think the Eagles are better than the 'Skins. And it showed last year, we swept them.

While the Redskins have made boneheaded mistakes in free agency, like Adam Archuleta, the Eagles have made the mistake of doing too little. What's the bigger crime? Having a franchise QB capable of taking you all the way, and doing NOTHING to give him a significant weapon in the passing game, even though your team has both the cash and the cap space to do so? Or shelling out as much money as the cap allows to fill out your team, but missing badly?

See, the thing is, if the Eagles were willing to spend in free agency like the Redskins, combining that with Philly's ability to avoid the blunder on such decisions, and combining that with a franchise QB? You'd have at least one Super Bowl right now, and there's no Eagle fan that doesn't feel that way right now. How can you leave your fans thinking that McNabb's great career was wasted, all because the front office wouldn't sack up and pay a receiver?

I'd rather have Danny and Vinny any day. They'll make mistakes, but at least they'll try. And hell, even a blind squirrel has to find a nut eventually. When McNabb is done in Philly and they have to rely on Kevin Kolb, that team will enter a VERY dark period.

You bring up a great point about McNabb being the difference maker between the two organizations. But I have to respectfully disagree. At least somewhat.

In my estimation, Andy Reid has been undoubtedly the difference maker, the glue, the staying power and has been the sole reason the Eagles have been a consistent playoff contender. Even through McNabb's ups and downs and eratic play. Besides, Belichek, no coach has his team consistently prepared more than Andy Reid. I don't want to turn this thread into an Eagles or Reid lovefest, but if we're thinking that the Eagles are done because they let B. Dawks go, which by the way was a dumb ass move, we're in for a rude awakening in the NFC East. This team will compete and play well in 2009.

[cdskins26]

In philly when I bring it up, their response is f**k Dawkins for walking out on us. But honestly, Dakwins was being offered signifigantly more to go to Denver, and it was obvious that the Eagles were under-valuing him. He still has a lot in him. They should blame their cheap-ass owner for the reason they never go after big names.

[Pocket$ $traight]

Originally Posted by cdskins26

In philly when I bring it up, their response is f**k Dawkins for walking out on us. But honestly, Dakwins was being offered signifigantly more to go to Denver, and it was obvious that the Eagles were under-valuing him. He still has a lot in him. They should blame their cheap-ass owner for the reason they never go after big names.

Well it seems that the Philly fans who can operate a computer (which may be the minority) understand that this falls on the FO and not Dawkins.

[GMScud]

Originally Posted by Ruhskins

If the Eagles front office is so great, why haven't they won a SB? I know that sounds like a stupid question/statement, but I think in this business the end goal is winning SBs, not just making to the NFC Championship or the playoffs. Multiple playoff appearances sets the expectation of a championship and Eagles have not done so, their chance are running out. Which is why I think your comparison is not fair, given the success of the Eagles as an organization, but their lack of winning it all may be seen as a success. I personally think if they had ponied up money for T.O. they would have won a championship.

I'm sure if this were a Lions website, someone would be probably praising our team for not having losing season and making it to the playoffs. And of course, for us "not having a losing season" is nice but we want to take it to the next level. So yes, the Eagles have a good front office, who knows maybe our team would have multiple playoff appearances, but having just that sets an expectation that if the team doesn't win the big one, it has not succeed.

Ok, you're missing my point. I never once said their front office was "so great." My discussion with Schneed10 was simply that I would take their front office over ours. No, they haven't won a Super Bowl, but going to 5 NFC Championship games in 10 years is pretty darn good, even though they haven't sealed the deal.

You mention TO and his money. It's not really up for debate that the guy is a total me-first cancer for every team he's been on. The Eagles gave him a $50M contract back in '04, and after ONE season he and Rosenshaus were "next question-ing" themselves right out of Philly, crying for more money. TO was a star before he signed that contract. If he didn't like the terms, they should have negotiated more money before he ever put on a uniform. To say Philly didn't "pony up" isn't really fair.

[KLHJ2]

Originally Posted by cdskins26

In philly when I bring it up, their response is f**k Dawkins for walking out on us. But honestly, Dakwins was being offered signifigantly more to go to Denver, and it was obvious that the Eagles were under-valuing him. He still has a lot in him. They should blame their cheap-ass owner for the reason they never go after big names.

I do not know about that. Some GM's believe that it is better to let marquis players go a little too early rather than a little too late. That way you are not overpaying them on the downside of their career. I am regurgitating something that Charlie Casserly said during the NFL combine. Not many people believe the Charlie Casserly is a bright GM, otherwise he would still be employed, but I think that there is some validity to that idea.

[cdskins26]

Originally Posted by Angry

I do not know about that. Some GM's believe that it is better to let marquis players go a little too early rather than a little too late. That way you are not overpaying them on the downside of their career. I am regurgitating something that Charlie Casserly said during the NFL combine. Not many people believe the Charlie Casserly is a bright GM, otherwise he would still be employed, but I think that there is some validity to that idea.

This is true, but for what he does for that team as a player, a leader, and a role model for other players, it should be worth trying for him to stay. Besides, his downside is still pretty good.

[KLHJ2]

Originally Posted by cdskins26

This is true, but for what he does for that team as a player, a leader, and a role model for other players, it should be worth trying for him to stay. Besides, his downside is still pretty good.

Fair enough, but I am not going to bash Philly for making a judgment move like this. Personally, I like the move.