Five Things I'm Sure About (sort of)

[44Deezel]

Originally Posted by 44ever

dmek25. I see your point and everyone else that looks at it this way. But, what nobody seems to be asking is: if it's a new system and Flacco, Ryan and Pennington are succesful it must also mean there teams as a whole are sucsessful.

I think it's fair to say our team as a whole is not succesful in the new system. JC didn't give up the points, the Defense did. Had Moss not dropped so many, if our O line gave better pass protection. If we had a better pass rush. If Smoot was still Smoot. ect...

Had we beat the Rams and Bengals we'd be in the playoffs. Our TEAM needs to step up. Including JC.

Randle El seemed to drop a bunch as well. They can't go another year with him as the #2. Get the rooks ready!

[44Deezel]

Originally Posted by 44ever

Excellent observation! Let's hope the JC haters seen that

Let's not forget that Ryan's a rookie. I think most fans would have been euphoric about Campbell's season if he was just a rookie. And if Ryan plateaus or regresses in the next few years, Falcons fans will skewer him just Campbell gets skewered here on a regular basis

[30gut]

Originally Posted by dmek25

the one thing that is starting to bother me Flacco, Ryan, and Pennington. all three of those guys stepped into NEW systems and had successful years.

The Falcons and Ravens both changed their offenses. The Dolphins also run a new system but, their offensive coordinator Dan Henning was Chad Penningtons OC/QB coach with the Jets during his rookie year so the offense was new to the team not to the QB.*

Smith, Harbaugh and Sparano are rookie HC but each has a *veteran
offensive coordinator/playcaller and a QB coach.* This IMO allows them time to focus attention on the big picture of being a HC. Zorn has a 1st time OC who is new to the offense that Zorn is bringing in, Zorn doesn't have a QB coach but leans on 1st time offensive assistant Chris Meidt from Div. III St.Olaf.

Also all 3 teams are *strong on the offensive line despite injuries,
all 3 teams commit to running the ball, and protecting their respective QBs.*

Comparing apples and oranges.
Look i like Matt Ryan but put Campbell on the Falcons and IMO you would get similiar if not better production then Ryan.

Did you stop to compare their situations?

Matt Ryan has a veteran OC and playcaller in Mike Mularkey. Mularkey runs a vertical play-action heavy passing attack, as opposed to JC who is in the 1st year of the WCO which takes at 3 years to master JC has a 1st time playcaller Zorn and a 1st time OC Sherman Smith (who is new to the WCO himself.)

Matt Ryan has been only been sacked 17 times he's the 8th least sacked QB in the NFL. Campbell has been sacked 38 times tied for 4th most.

Falcons have the #2 ranked rushing offense in the NFL which drives their play-action heavy passing attack. Redskins have the 8th ranked rushing offense but the WCO doesn't feature alot of play-action.

Having Mike Mularkey on staff is IMHO the number one reason for Ryan's success.

Mike Mularkey comes to the Falcons with a vast amount of coaching and playing experience in the NFL, which includes two years as a Head Coach (Buffalo Bills) and two stints as an Offensive Coordinator — one with the Pittsburgh Steelers (2001–2003), and the other with the Miami Dolphins (2006). He also forged a successfull playing career that spanned nine years in the League as a tight end for the Minnesota Vikings (1983–1988) and Pittsburgh Steelers (1989–1991).

Atlanta Falcons | People | Mike Mularkey

*Also they have a fulltime QB coach in Bill Musgrave. Zorn is JC's QB coach which is great, but Zorn is also the HC and therefore can't give JC fulltime attention therefore Zorn relies on 1st time NFL assistant Chris Meidt (Div. II HC) to help out with QB coach duties.

the new system argument seems to be the main sticky point on why Campbell hasn't stepped up to the next level of qbacking. it really carries little, to no weight

ESPN - Hasselbeck thriving in West Coast offense - NFL
^^^John Clayton article
SEATTLE -- Mike Holmgren professes that it takes three years to make a quarterback in the West Coast offense, and it takes five years for a West Coast quarterback to become a very good one.

"I thought Jason would eventually play well under Jim Zorn," ESPN Monday Night Football analyst Ron Jaworski says. "I didn't think he'd play this well, this early.

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

Let's put some perspective on this:

Matt Hasselbeck's first 3 seasons working with Zorn and Holmgren in Seattle:

2001: 176/321 54.8%, 2,023 yards, 7 TD, 8 INT, 70.9 rating
2002: 267/419 63.7%, 3,075 yards, 15 TD, 10 INT, 87.8 rating
2003: 313/513 61.0%, 3,841 yards, 26 TD, 15 INT, 88.8 rating

And here's what JC did in year 1 with Zorn:

2008: 315/506 62.3%, 3,245 yards, 13 TD, 6 INT, 84.3 rating

I think it's only fair we see how JC does in year 2 before any hard conclusions are made as to whether he can be a quality long term answer here or not. JC is already on par with what Hasselbeck did in year 2.

[SouperMeister]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

Sorry, but Jason Campbell is not a starting WCO quarterback and he never will be. The dude's 28 and we're still making excuses for him. Hes too scared to throw anything other than a check down or crossing pattern. The guy has no balls, its as simple as that.

We need to sign Garcia to groom Brennan if we plan on sticking with the WCO another year. JC will fail in the WCO in 2009 and that will only hurt his trade value. We should move him now for whatever we can get. Jason Campbell is not the future here. The sooner we move on, the better.

Following your logic, we never should have fired Al Saunders. I believe that Campbell has the requisite skills to succeed in any system if we would pick one, stick to it, and allow him to develop. Campbell was MUCH better in his first year starting in a WCO than Hasselbeck was in Seattle, and we can all agree that Hasselbeck developed into a pretty good WCO QB. Note that it wasn't until his 3rd year running Seattle's WCO that Hasselbeck started playing at a Pro Bowl level.

[53Fan]

Originally Posted by SouperMeister

Following your logic, we never should have fired Al Saunders. I believe that Campbell has the requisite skills to succeed in any system if we would pick one, stick to it, and allow him to develop. Campbell was MUCH better in his first year starting in a WCO than Hasselbeck was in Seattle, and we can all agree that Hasselbeck developed into a pretty good WCO QB. Note that it wasn't until his 3rd year running Seattle's WCO that Hasselbeck started playing at a Pro Bowl level.

Man would'nt that be great. I just heard Jeff Fisher say how important continuity and stability is to an organization. I'd be pretty happy to just have the same offense for 3 years in a row. I'm sure JC would too.

[GusFrerotte]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

Sorry, but Jason Campbell is not a starting WCO quarterback and he never will be. The dude's 28 and we're still making excuses for him. Hes too scared to throw anything other than a check down or crossing pattern. The guy has no balls, its as simple as that.

We need to sign Garcia to groom Brennan if we plan on sticking with the WCO another year. JC will fail in the WCO in 2009 and that will only hurt his trade value. We should move him now for whatever we can get. Jason Campbell is not the future here. The sooner we move on, the better.

I agree to some extent about JC and then some. JC definitely has the tools and I can understand some optimism about him if the line is upgraded for next season. The thing that bothered me was that during the last several weeks of the season, during the worst time of the collapse, he showed no leadership, or urgency. It took him almost the end of the year to learn to take off with the football if everyone was blanketed? God damn, Flacco did that all year!!!!!! You can say all you want about having 3 different offensive schemes thrown at you in 5 seasons, but you still should know how to run with it or show leadership at the NFL level. Also about JC is the fact Gibbs drafted him with HIS offense in mind, so JC just might be hindered by that fact you have mentioned that he might not be a WCO QB. At Auburn he was accustomed to an offense that was sort of like Gibbs, a strong running game with a downfield passing attack. I am hoping he can adjust to the WCO in '09 like the Goat thinks he will, but to me it is still a 50-50 proposition.

[44ever]

Originally Posted by GusFrerotte

I agree to some extent about JC and then some. JC definitely has the tools and I can understand some optimism about him if the line is upgraded for next season. The thing that bothered me was that during the last several weeks of the season, during the worst time of the collapse, he showed no leadership, or urgency. It took him almost the end of the year to learn to take off with the football if everyone was blanketed? God damn, Flacco did that all year!!!!!! You can say all you want about having 3 different offensive schemes thrown at you in 5 seasons, but you still should know how to run with it or show leadership at the NFL level. Also about JC is the fact Gibbs drafted him with HIS offense in mind, so JC just might be hindered by that fact you have mentioned that he might not be a WCO QB. At Auburn he was accustomed to an offense that was sort of like Gibbs, a strong running game with a downfield passing attack. I am hoping he can adjust to the WCO in '09 like the Goat thinks he will, but to me it is still a 50-50 proposition.

I think that's a fair argument. I'll tell you what perplexed me more is why he looked so different from the first part of the season to the last. He looked very good for a while. So he can do it. Were going to have to wait and see

[The Goat]

Thanks to 30Gut for a very informative/important post.

Just want to reiterate that it is Zorn as HC and QB coach that gives me more confidence in JC than anything else. My intuition is Zorn knows exactly what he wants in his QB, he knows what to look for, and already he's said Jason can be successful. Sure Zorn could be wrong but I think his history as a QB and QB coach indicates this is an area of real expertise. Also worth mentioning JC is an extremely hard worker/studier.

The two legitimate criticisms of Jason that may be impossible for Zorn to "coach" IMO are leadership and accuracy. I believe the leadership is coming. Have to give JC the benefit of the doubt on this one because he started here w/ the league's most outspoken RB and a coaching staff/FO that has always seemed to cow-toe to CP and his antics. Again just guessing here but Portis' antics regarding Zorn probably took him out of the leadership role. As the QB Jason is the natural leader and now is his time to establish this - I think we saw hints of it in SanFran from Jason's decision to move the ball on his own and his show of emotion. More of this to come I would guess.
That leaves the accuracy question. So many QBs and coaches have said you got it or you don't. JC does really struggle to be accurate w/ the long ball and it's a real concern. To his credit Jason got more accurate this year on short/intermediate passes. He did a nice job of getting more of his passes down to our shorty's @ WR. Hopefully this is indicative of his ability to improve accuracy in general.

... Jason throws such a nice deep shot - some describe it as pretty even - it would be a GD travesty for him not be able to guide it for completion on a regular basis.

[tryfuhl]

Originally Posted by The Goat

1.) Addressing the offensive line must be the #1 priority. Actually tough to know where to begin here. Just consider for a moment the '07 unit, which endured an uncanny series of injuries, gave up 28 total sacks, while this season's relatively healthy unit gave up 38 total sacks. Certainly young talent is needed; however, am I the only fan wondering whether it's time for a new position coach? Absolutely no disrespect to Buges. Can't even imagine what he endured over the course of the season w/ his daughter passing away, but I wonder whether he is looking beyond football at this point (and rightfully so).

Agreed, though I'm sure Buges still has it in him. It being the ability that is.

2) Shawn Springs will not be a Redskin in '09. Way too much time on the sideline, and his final showing was anything but impressive. Also, consider the cap hit.

Man he was money at the beginning of the season, unfortunately, he was too much money for a sideline player.

3) Smoot... holy crap! I can't believe this is the same player I watched pick off passes left and right opposite Bailey. He's gone or there's some kind of conspiracy.

He's alright for a nickel

... implications of Springs/Smoot: Hall will be signed and Rogers retained. I think the rumors surrounding Rogers departure must be bogus. The guy's only real issue was the hoof-hands and he finally makes a pretty impressive INT to end the season. C'mon, we have to keep him. But we need a third corner, and here's where cutting Torrence was a mistake IMO.

We definitely need to keep Rogers, especially if Springs and/or Smoot is gone. Need to find out if Blache is dogging him and what's up with that. If you start putting D. Hall onto number 1 WR's all year long we're not gonna be nearly as happy with Hall. All CB's should have mandatory practice with Collins and/or Colt, more than last year where it was only mentioned during one week.

4) Stan Hixon must go. Nuff said.

Someone's gotta take the fall. Is it his fault? Maybe. Should we find out? Yep.

5) Campbell will be money next year (mark it, dude). He's started coming into his own. I loved the way he took off for yards when everybody was covered. But most importantly, Zorn has committed to developing JC into a great QB. JC will be much improved therefor, so long as we make some smart personnel/staff changes, our offense will be much improved.

Hail.

Here's to hoping. I think that he will be, especially if Zorn lets off of the reigns a bit, especially when we have some sort of momentum going. Campbell looked good when he was pretty much running his 2 min drills year before last, if we were getting past the markers at least.

[30gut]

Originally Posted by GusFrerotte

The thing that bothered me was that during the last several weeks of the season, during the worst time of the collapse, he showed no leadership, or urgency.

C'mon bro, you didn't see leadership?

Why because JC doesn't yell at lineman when they miss blocks or receivers when they drop passes?

I saw leadership when he marched down the field and scored against the 49ers.

I saw leadership when he lead the team down the field against the Bengals. (Sellars couldn't get in for the score though)

I saw leadership when he was delivering passes on target in the face of oncoming rush then getting blasted by defensive lineman and getting right back up.

I saw leadership in the comeback victories.

It took him almost the end of the year to learn to take off with the football if everyone was blanketed? God damn, Flacco did that all year!!!!!! You can say all you want about having 3 different offensive schemes thrown at you in 5 seasons, but you still should know how to run with it or show leadership at the NFL level.

Did you watch the games? B/c JC has been picking up yards all season.

Flacco rushing yards: 52 attempts 180 yards 3.5 avg 2 TDs
Campbell: 47 attempts 258 yards 5.5 avg 1 TD

Actually QFT:

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Campbell is one of the best quarterbacks in the league in terms of carrying the football, only Matt Cassel was a more effective runner this year according to Football Outsiders.

so JC just might be hindered by that fact you have mentioned that he might not be a WCO QB.

Not a good fit huh?

Do you just ignore the posts that you don't agree with?

2001: 176/321 54.8%, 2,023 yards, 7 TD, 8 INT, 70.9 rating
^^Hasselbecks 1st year running the WCO after a year watching in GB

2008: 315/506 62.3%, 3,245 yards, 13 TD, 6 INT, 84.3 rating
^^ JC 1st year in Zorn's WCO

It would appear that our QB is ahead of the WCO learning curve huh?
Looks like he's a good fit huh?

"I thought Jason would eventually play well under Jim Zorn," ESPN Monday Night Football analyst Ron Jaworski says. "I didn't think he'd play this well, this early.
"I've seen his game ascending. He can make every throw a quarterback has to have, the tough stick throw, the deep out, the seam route. He has great anticipation. I thought he'd become a rock-solid quarterback.
"That it's happened this quickly really is a tribute to Jim Zorn."

At Auburn he was accustomed to an offense that was sort of like Gibbs, a strong running game with a downfield passing attack.

Wrong again. In JC final year when Auburn went undefeated and JC was SEC offensive player of the year and SEC Championship MVP JC under OC Al Borges ran the drum roll please...the WCO

[sportscurmudgeon]

1. Springs is a superior defensive back compared to Smoot. If cap issues don't matter, keep Springs and cut Smoot.

HOWEVER, since Tryon showed exactly ZERO readiness for NFL play in the exhibition games and never made the field for any meaningful defensive snaps this year, I have to think he has a lot of "developmental work to do" in order for the Skins to count on him as a nickel back next year.


2. Someone said Marcus Washington is great when he is on the field but he is hurt too much. Sorry, I think Marcus Washington used to be an excellent OLB but now he is in a serious decline. Maybe they can squeeze another season out of him as a part time player - - maybe not.


3. The three young pass catchers (Davis, Kelly, Thomas) all need to improve about 100% in the off season because at least two of them will need to catch about 50 balls next year to make last year's draft come up to the level of acceptable. The WRs were the weak link of the team in 07; the FO recognized that because they went out and spent three draft picks to make changes there; sadly, the FO drafted guys who contributed next to nothing in 2008. Don't tell me that's because they are rookies; Deshawn Jackson plays in a similar system and he contributed lots in 2008; Eddie Royal and Donnie Avery contributed plenty too.

Kelly and Thomas got chewed out by Zorn for showing up out of shape for OTAs/training camp and then never got with the plan all year long. They don't keep these kinds of stats but I think Kelly may have dropped more balls that hit him in both hands than any other rookie WR this year. Thomas scored a TD on a reverse in a game the Skins lost; that was his highlight for the year. Davis' main accomplishment for the year was sleeping late and missing meetings/practice. Oh swell... By the way, folks in SoCal were not shocked to learn that Davis had done something like that; he just may have had "similar incidents" whilst at USC...

If the 09 Skins play Moss, Randle-El and Thrash as the WR tandem more than a handful of times, then 2009 will be another year of sitting at home and watching the playoffs on TV for the Skins.

Someone suggested trading Randle-El. Maybe the Skins could get a used kicking tee for him given that he carries the back end of a $30M contract with him to wherever he may be traded...


4. Jason Campbell will be the QB next year barring injury - - and he should be. There really are not any great QBs out there on the FA market this year but it will take lots of money to sign one in any event. For the Colt Brennan acolytes, be sure to set your VCRs to record all the Skins exhibition games next year so you can go back and watch him play in those games. Barring catastrophic injuries - - such as the ones the Browns suffered at QB this year - - that is all you will see of Colt Brennan in 2009. Maybe 2010? Maybe not...


5. Offensive line needs major reconstruction. I am not enamored with any of the five starters beyond 2008 although Samuels and Thomas still have servicable years in their careers. The older offensive linemen are over the peak of their careers; the younger ones have shown nothing to make me think they will be the answer in 2009. Blame the FO for that. It is possible to get good offensive linemen who contribute in their first year or two in the league; this FO just hasn't found any recently.

I'm sure the coaches are being honest when they talk about how hard players like Heyer and Rhinehart work during the week. I'm equally sure that it hasn't mattered a whole lot when it comes to the ability to produce on Sundays - - which is the purpose of paying these guys in the first place.


6. If Brett Favre retires, Clinton Portis will move into the Top Five on the list of NFL divas in 2009.


7. The D-line needs some upgrading too. When it came to the question of a pass rushing DE, the skins FO passed on any bidding for Jared Allen in a trade last year. They thought what they had was adequate. Then injuries in training camp convinced them to spend resources (picks and dollars) on Jason Taylor. Question: Who is the better DE - - Allen or Taylor? Why no interest in the better one?


8. Skins are fine at MLB - - unless Fletcher gets hurt. Then they will be in the situation they found themselves in with Jason Taylor this year; they will have to go out and find someone to plug in on short notice. Anyone got Jeremiah Trotter on speed-dial?

[markymark]

any word on when they well start resigning and restructuring our players?

[FlyWonderful23]

i agree. be like the nature of water...