Disgusting

[backrow]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

Daseal -

I agree and disagree with you. As to the kid having a right to say what he wants about Tillman. Yup. He does. I don't have to respect it, but he can say it. From what I read of the article, I happen to agree with the president of the college who described the article as "intellectually immature".

As to heroism, you make the mistake of tying heroism to a heroic death. While it is likely true that Tillman died just as many other soldiers have died in the line of duty, it is not the actual events of his death that make him heroic. Rather, it is the choices he made in life and which eventually resulted in his death that made him heroic.

Everyone, whether they do so knowingly or with some alterior motives, who joins the armed forces has made, on some level, certain choices and sacrifices and, accordingly, is in the same way "heroic" as Tillman was. In an extreme way, however, Tillman reflected the choices and sacrifices faced by all who don the uniform of our military and place their lives in our service.

Unlike the vast majority of those who have died, Tilman bypassed a life of ease and false hero-worship given to entertainers. Tillman sacrificed the luxuries given to such individuals and chose to place his life at the disposal of his country in hopes that, by doing so, he would better serve his fellow countrymen/women. By making this choice, Tillman exhibited a selflessness which, if practiced by all of us, would make our country and this world a better place. Further, the he choice made, though easy for Tillman, is incomprehensible to many of us. Can you honestly say you would sacrifice the 3.6 million and fame commensurate with being professional football player in order to serve your country in a life threatening job for low pay and relative anonymity (even if you believed the cause just)? While I would like to honestly answer "Yes". I am not sure I can.

The fact that Tillman could and did answer "yes" to this question and then followed his answer through to it its deadly end is what makes him heroic and his death tragic.
He is a hero because his choices and sacrifices set an ideal which all of us can and should strive to emulate even if we cannot hope to duplicate it.

I am a Veteran, and would be proud to go an serve again along side of anyone like Pat Tillman!
Unfortunately I'm too old, by military standards.
Would I want either my son, or son-in-law to go and serve as a result of 9-11? That would be up to them, but I would support whichever decision they made.
DaSeal disagrees with war, any war.
My contention is we were tossed into this war by an attack here on our own soil, unlike any other we have ever experienced.
In trying to rid the Middle East of the terror that was imposed upon us, we have reaped the casualties of war.
We did not ask to be in this war, but we are going to finish it!
That my friend is American Patriotism, and American Resolve!

I work for the Navy, and support my military every day!
As a Veteran and a Christian, I support my President and his prayerfully made decisions!

But I would fight for Daseal to hold his opinions!

Not all Christians feel we did exactly the right thing in either the Crusades, or in winning the West from the Native Americans.
But I know some Native Americans, and they support the same Ideals that I do, except they are free to worship as they please to their gods.
I know some Muslims, and they are free to worship as they see.

But, again, I would go back into the military today if called!
9-11-01 Will not be forgotten!
We are just not able to get out of Iraq easily, or out of Afghanistan without finishing the job. Part of the casualities of war. It takes a while to come to an end when you had no plan of action before being attacked!

[skinsfanthru&thru]

Originally Posted by Daseal

Offiss, please go educate yourself instead of lumping all Muslim people together as a godless and vicious people. They are as much human as you and I. It's because our country is so intolerent of other religions and cultures that we hate them so.

I have to strongly disagree with what offiss said by it starting with god and democracy, that's not the only way to transform into a strong nation. maybe it is in your mind and that's your perrogative.

as for daseal, aren't u doing what u just critized offiss for doing by lumping all americans into one collective that is intolerent of other religions and cultures? I know I'm not intolerent of where someone wishes to put their faith and where they come from. If anything I'm more intrigued. But yet with muslims i do have to admit I've had stereotypical thoughts since 9-11, but i ask how could any person, not just in this country, not have similar thoughts from time to time. Of course I also wonder about the people(whites, blacks, asians, and hispanics) i see on the street when there is something in the news about a serial killer or a gang-related shooting. In my mind it's self preservation to keep my guard up and to get a good read on anybody I might encounter. I know there will always be fanatics of every religion and non-religions. Sometimes people misconstrew(sp?) the messages and warp them either to cleanse themselves of any guilt from something they have done or will do or they warp the messages to misguide others who r easily swayed.


In my opinion you(daseal) and offiss are the polar opposites on this topic, but I think(and hope) the majority of people are a mixture and balance of the two. and if the people of this country and/or world with either extremist viewpoint become the majority, then god, or whomever you believe in, help us.

[offiss]

Originally Posted by skinsfanthru&thru

I have to strongly disagree with what offiss said by it starting with god and democracy, that's not the only way to transform into a strong nation. maybe it is in your mind and that's your perrogative.

as for daseal, aren't u doing what u just critized offiss for doing by lumping all americans into one collective that is intolerent of other religions and cultures? I know I'm not intolerent of where someone wishes to put their faith and where they come from. If anything I'm more intrigued. But yet with muslims i do have to admit I've had stereotypical thoughts since 9-11, but i ask how could any person, not just in this country, not have similar thoughts from time to time. Of course I also wonder about the people(whites, blacks, asians, and hispanics) i see on the street when there is something in the news about a serial killer or a gang-related shooting. In my mind it's self preservation to keep my guard up and to get a good read on anybody I might encounter. I know there will always be fanatics of every religion and non-religions. Sometimes people misconstrew(sp?) the messages and warp them either to cleanse themselves of any guilt from something they have done or will do or they warp the messages to misguide others who r easily swayed.


In my opinion you(daseal) and offiss are the polar opposites on this topic, but I think(and hope) the majority of people are a mixture and balance of the two. and if the people of this country and/or world with either extremist viewpoint become the majority, then god, or whomever you believe in, help us.

The thing you have to acknowledge is this, my view point is the one that this country was founded upon, and I think the result's have been unparalled in history, I also will say take a look at the result's of the foundation of the muslim religion, history speak's for itself. I know few these day's agree with what I am saying but I wouldn't be a friend to my fellow man if I hid the truth, which is unfortunatlly is becoming more and more less popular, I do support the right for an individual to believe what he want's to believe, but there is a big price to pay for those that choose wrongly!

[skinsfanthru&thru]

Originally Posted by offiss

The thing you have to acknowledge is this, my view point is the one that this country was founded upon, and I think the result's have been unparalled in history, I also will say take a look at the result's of the foundation of the muslim religion, history speak's for itself. I know few these day's agree with what I am saying but I wouldn't be a friend to my fellow man if I hid the truth, which is unfortunatlly is becoming more and more less popular, I do support the right for an individual to believe what he want's to believe, but there is a big price to pay for those that choose wrongly!

that's every human beings choice to make for themselves. plus by the time anyone truely learns the absolute truth, their dead. all i can do personally is live my life the best i can and I believe that if i do things will be fine when I've shed my mortal shell. I do agree that parts of the muslim belief are rather barbaric and ignorant, like how they treat their women, but I honestly don;t know about the foundations of the muslim faith so therefore I can't fully understand why they do some things the way they do.

plus I'm pretty sure this country was founded in the search of being able to practice any religion you wanted without the persecution of others.

[offiss]

Originally Posted by Daseal

I'm not a "muslim sympathizer" I'm someone who doesn't believe that we should go to war unless absolutley necessary. I don't care who it is and what religious stance they take. Your view of muslim's is exactly what's wrong with this country. Most Muslim are peace loving people. You think Muhammad Ali was a terrorist? Mushim Mahammad from the Panthers harboring terrorists? No. They are just regular (with gifted physical ability) guys. If you hate Muslim's, might be time to move. It's this countries fastest growing religion. The whole Israel mess is another topic in and of themselves, but do a little research and if say Muslims were keeping you from work every day, while Muslim's got special commuter lanes and didn't have to stop at 15 check points, you'd probably be pissed when you got fired because you never came to work. THere's a reason Israeli special forces have started refusing missions stating they won't kill any more Muslims unless it is a life or death type of threat. I'm not saying just dump food and water on Iraq, I mean EVERYWHERE. Mainly Africa. What do you hate about African's, Offiss. You obviously don't understand the hatered that accompanies ANY organized religion. Most religions are founded by war, and you mighty Christians took part in a sickening holy war, remember the Crusades? Or Killing Indians that wouldn't convert? Organized Religion normally teaches good morals, but that's all it's good for. It's been the same shit since Greek mythology recycled and regurgitated in a slightly different form. (Saints = Greek Gods. They have a god for everything, Christians have a Saint. There are tons of parrallels. Read Age of Reason by Thomas Paine (the reason our country exists is because of him) he'll be happy to show you all the problems with Christianity. Hell, at least two people were dead before they supposedly wrote their books in the bible. That's always been quite a task!

Hitler is a whole other set of rules completely. First of all, had Japan not bombed us like idiots, chances are we wouldn't have gotten involved. At least not for quite some time. We were fairly isolationist and we wouldn't have touched them. Germany wasn't exactly in a sorry economical state. I still think Russia would have eventually won, although it would have taken a lot longer, but with Hitlers medication being what it was, and his knack for strategy seemingly gone, the Nazi's were about finished. Had he not make the few mistakes he made, I think history would have been slightly different. He's the worst creature to ever walk the earth, but he was also an intelligent man who was extremely persuasive. I just don't think he had the amount of men needed to singlehandedly take over Europe. Hitler had food and wanted control, he didn't need food. And also, we did drop food on Germany, but I think it was a bit after WW2. The Berlin Air Drop, or something of the sort. That's when they were hungry because their country was wrecked.

So you're saying we should force people from another country, into a government they don't want, and then tell them to like it. Gee, Wonder why there's anti-American sentiment. Just because they want a religious leader doesn't mean they can't take care of themselves. "It starts with god and democracy." That's awful narrow minded. Our way is right, no other way can work! Our Constitution in and of itself was an experiment with many flaws in it. Not gaping flaws, and it's well written, but there are problems with it. They are not a "godless" nation. They believe in a god, just as you do. They are far from the poorest. They give us oil to run our cars. So unless you want to pay 5 bucks a gallon, you might want to salute the Muslims. Explain this to me. Saudi Arabia harbors more terrorists and almost all of the 9/11 bombers were Saudi. Why don't we go after them? Oh, we get tons of oil, so it's ok!

Offiss, please go educate yourself instead of lumping all Muslim people together as a godless and vicious people. They are as much human as you and I. It's because our country is so intolerent of other religions and cultures that we hate them so.

You think I'm vicious because I'm agnostic? Because I don't believe in your god?

And there is the problem, some moron right's a book and it becomes fact for you, no matter how ridiculous and unfactual it may be, I will tell you this, bring on Mr. Pain, we will see who straighten's who out about the fact's! no prob., I also like how you try to worm your way into the accussation of raceism, to try and congoure up sympathy for your arguement, as if I would back down from such a false attack, absolutly clintoneske, yea the muslim's here are peace loving because after 9/11 they know if they get out of line in any way they will have a real problem from the peole of this country, they are far out numbered, but if they ever took over the majority you would find out how peaceful they are the first time you refused to bow down to ala. agnostic? I don't see it, you have a stance and it's very clear it's not pro america, while you have have said nothing but glowing comment's for the muslim world, the only difference is your not man enough to admit what you are, so you bash america and praise muslim's and say I am on no one's side. You as well act as if we don't lift a finger to help other coutries with humanaterin aid, take a look at what happen's with food drop's these regimes keep it for themselves the people see very little, not in all cases, but in many, how bout the billion a year clinton gave to korea in aid? which they used to build nucleur weopon's, we have givin so much aid as well as food to these countries as a nation, as well as individual's, and what's happened? there in the same place they were before we ever gave them a nickle, why? because you can't continually beat your head against the wall, sooner or later you have to realize what your doing doesn't work, and change, but if you want to live that life, fine, if you keep to youself, but these people never keep to themselves period. WTC!

I also see you like to use the word hate to anyone that doesn't side with your view point, also clintoneske, just because I don't agree with them doesn't mean I hate anyone, including yourself daseal, but you keep telling me to educate myself, which I have, that's why I am capable of throwing your argument back in your face, case and point, you say we are so intolerable to other religion's and believe that is why we are so flawed as a country, which just show's your aboslute stupidity on how much you really know about this topic, AMERICA, is the most religous free country in the world, and more tolerent to other religion's than any other country in the world, I would like to see all the christian's in the muslim world or in the jewish world, good luck finding them, yet we open our door's to every race religion in the world and we are the bad guy's, if intolerence of certain religion breed's hatred as you have said then how do you support nation's that have no tolerence for anything but thier religion?

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by offiss

The thing you have to acknowledge is this, my view point is the one that this country was founded upon, and I think the result's have been unparalled in history, I also will say take a look at the result's of the foundation of the muslim religion, history speak's for itself. I know few these day's agree with what I am saying but I wouldn't be a friend to my fellow man if I hid the truth, which is unfortunatlly is becoming more and more less popular, I do support the right for an individual to believe what he want's to believe, but there is a big price to pay for those that choose wrongly!

I was hanging in there (mostly) with you offiss until this one. I am not sure what view point it is that you are saying the country was founded upon but I think you are tying it to christianity. If that is the case, I would have to disagree. While there was a strong belief in the existence of an almighty by the founding fathers, many of them were not christians in the traditional sense or in the manner we understand christians today. Rather, for the most part they were masonic, a sect of christianity which was based on secrecy and mysticism. Further, outside of the anglican southern elites and the northeastern puritans (or puritan-like sects), the majority of the country did not consider themselves "religious" by old-world standards.

The role and force of religion in American culture, history and politics is considerably convoluted. While almost always unanimous in the belief that we are a country "blessed by God", within certain broad parameters, the understanding and description of the God that is blessing us has varied greatly and, quite frankly, from our inception that has not necessarily involved the "Christian" God as defined in modern day society.

Also, to assert that a nation founded upon islam is doomed is, I believe, overly broad. I think (and I may be wrong) that Islam is the majority religion in the world. Further, there are many stable prosperous countries in which islam is the majority religion but not necessarily the "state religion". In countries which adopt islam as the state religion, yes there seems to be a pattern of problems. I would suggest, however, that comes more from the adoption of a "state" religion rather than from the religion chosen. (By the way, the Roman Empire, the Athenian Empire, the Han & Chin dynasties, the Khanate, the Mayan, Incan and Aztec Empires all existed for much longer time period than the US has as of yet and did so without the benefit of christianity).

IF HOWEVER, it is your suggestion that, as part of our country's founding and fundamental to our continued growth, is the recognition a "God" does exist and that we, as his creatures, must acknowledge his existence and seek his way, then yes, I acknowledge that and agree that the many ways people have done that through the history of this country has enhanced its growth and prosperity.


Damn, I am too long winded. I am sure by the time I have posted this, everyone else will have responded and rendered my (once again) brilliant points and theories moot.

[AnonEmouse]

Offiss please stop drinking or smoking whatever it is you are on, as it is obviously affecting your brain. Assuming you have one.

For one, your writing (note the spelling) style, grammar and spelling are atrocious. If you expect people to take what you have to say seriously, then I suggest you learn how to say it properly.

As to religion, you better stop talking out of your ass. Whilst this kind of talk is OK on the web, where nobody knows who you are, if you repeated some of your garbage in the street, particularly amongst the ethnic communities, you might find yourself very unwelcome in the least.

You appear to be a bigot, judging by your comments, and a particularly ignorant one at that. If you truly represent America’s views (I actually doubt that very much), then shame on America.

There are probably more Muslims in the world than Americans, and 99% of them have no desire to attack (literally not figuratively) America or it’s people. From your rhetoric and support for the crap spouted by our respective leaders (Blair and Bush in case you were unsure), you would probably be quite happy dropping nukes all over the middle east, rather than try to understand why there are elements of Muslim culture that dislike America (or more accurately it’s politics). If that’s the case, I hope you never venture overseas.

I for one happen to agree with the war in Afghanistan, considering the Taliban’s stance on terrorism. However, Iraq is a completely different kettle of oil, and if you think that has anything to do with Muslims, you really are as misguided and ill educated as you sound.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by Daseal

Most religions are founded by war, and you mighty Christians took part in a sickening holy war, remember the Crusades? Or Killing Indians that wouldn't convert? Organized Religion normally teaches good morals, but that's all it's good for. It's been the same shit since Greek mythology recycled and regurgitated in a slightly different form. (Saints = Greek Gods. They have a god for everything, Christians have a Saint. There are tons of parrallels. Read Age of Reason by Thomas Paine (the reason our country exists is because of him) he'll be happy to show you all the problems with Christianity. Hell, at least two people were dead before they supposedly wrote their books in the bible. That's always been quite a task!

Ahh Daseal, Daseal,

Your thought process sometimes shows such a waste of almost usuable raw material. And I would suggest to you, that neither Christ nor Buddha would agree with your statement that the organized religions which grew from their inspiration were "founded by war". Rather, in most cases, once a religious movement gained momentum and temporal power through the its spiritual energy and inspiration, those seeking temporal power attempted (and often succeeded) in corrupting and assimilating the power associated with the spiritual leadership. Although the ideal of closer individual and corporate communion with the ultimate "is" of the universe through ritual worship and study has, in many cases, been corrupted, to bash either the concept, accomplishments or continued potential good of organized religion is ignorant and short sighted. It is similar to saying, because business corporations do bad things, the concept of corporations is bad and came about only through greed.

Throughout history, organized religion (not just christianity) has been a vehicle through which men and women, however flawed, have attempted to pool their knowledge and understanding of the universe's infinite essence. To do so, they have adopted rituals and symbolism to address, describe and teach about the infinite. In its purest form, organized religion preserves and adds to knowledge from generation to generation. In this way, it reminds us of the focal point and helps us to remember that which has already been learned so we don't have to keep reinventing the wheel.

Does organized religion exist in "its purest form"? Yes, at times and in places. Has it been corrupted and its spiritual power been appropriated to accomplish temporal ends at odds with the religion's underlying teachings? Duh. How can this happen? Because while God inspired, organized religion is inevitably human run. Guess what? humans screw up, have flaws, get envious, greedy, etc.

You may choose to be an agnostic. That's fine. But before blasting "organized religion", please try to understand its true purpose and benefits.

Tools are what we make of them and accomplish that which we inspire. Organized religion, for the most part, through the thousands of years of human existense, has been a tool for good by operating as vehicle through which corporate knowledge is shared, deeper insights to our purpose on this world gained and practical assistance is given to those who wish to do good.

[By the way, the books entered into the Bible were decided by committee over a hundred years after most of the original disciples had died. Most of the books and letters assembled in the current Christian Bible were traditional documents of the church and the names attached to them were often in the way of communal reputation - Bible historiography and critique is actually a fascinating subject which I would gladly discuss with you.]

[MTK]

Hey guys,

Looks like things may be getting a little heated on this topic. Let's agree to disagree and move on if the discussions can't stay civilized. I'd hate to see someone get booted because they lost their cool.

Thanks

[Daseal]

Backrow: I don't agree with every war, but I do think that it should be avoided at all costs. Being in the service yourself I think you can appreciate the fact that I try to avoid war. No one want's to be put in imminent danger if it can be solved with a little bit of tact and a few concessions by both sides. I agree with the war on Afghanistan, I agree with World War II, I agree with wars when they are necessary to stop an imminent threat, we are attacked, or an ally needs help. I do however disagree with frivilous wars based on bad intelligence. I think that going to war is something you better be damn sure of before you start sending people's families in to battle. I came across a bit too harsh. I don't "hate" Christians. I think that Christianity is a great outlet for people to gather and gain spiritual health, but it's when people depend on it too much, or breathe too much into it that I get put out. The average Christian, I have nothing against, just like the average Muslim, Jew, Gypsy, whatever. It's when someone takes it to an unreal level that I get upset. The main difference is I can't bring myself to support a President who hasn't done that much in office. I wasn't exactly a huge Clinton fan, I did like the economy, I could care less about the blow job, but he did an even worse job than Bush when it came to the environmental issues.

Skinsfan: you're right. Offiss and I are on polar opposites of this issue. That's just how the ball tumbles. It's amazing how two people (Offiss and I) can agree fairly often on certain matters, but when it comes to politics we have totally opposite opinions. Part of the reason I like this country is people that have totally different opinions can be respected for having them.

Offiss: I'm suprised a Patriot such as yourself will call the man who singlehandedly sparked the revolition a moron. Without Thomas Paine and his propaganda filled pamphlet entitled "Common Sense" we would be discussing this over tea and crumpets (sorry for the stereotype, anon!). He was a great friend of Ben Franklins who brought him to this country. His paper sold like hotcakes and with it people made their congressmen vote for revolution, in states, such as Virginia, that weren't for revolution at the time. We would probably have never broken free of Brittish control if it weren't for Common Sense. The man is a great author and one of the most gifted minds to ever set foot in the country. Common Sense is not a long read, I suggest you pick it up sometime.

I'm not trying to conjure up sympathy for my stance. It's my stance, and unless I get overwhelmingly convinced the other way, I'm not going to change it. People can take my opinions or leave them, however they are my opinions and you'll have to live with this. Muslims don't want war, I promise you that. At least not most of them. There are a few crazy ones, just like there are a few crazy Christians. Did everyone say OH CHRISTIANS ARE AWFUL when Timmithy McVeigh (sp?) bombed Oklahoma? I don't think so! They said it's a crazy white guy, his religion didn't even come into play. I'm not trying to have the Muslim's come off as scott free. They make their fair share of mistakes. However, I don't have time to play both sides of the ball, and since everyone is taking your side, I want to illustrate the other. I don't see any problem in that what so ever. Look at Israel, when Britain took that land, if I were living there, I'd be mad too! You're telling me if Canada came in and said we're taking Colorodo for the Indians, because it's their favorite skiing resort (I know it's a bad analogy to compare holy lands to ski resorts, but stick with me) you'd be mad. And you don't even live in Colorodo! I don't mean to bash America. Sure, we have problems, but we also have huge upsides. We're all aware of this, and I'm not going to keep coming. If I come off as an America basher, I'm sorry. A Bush basher, definitly! The US does a lot of humanitarian aid, which I applaud them for but 40 mil more would be incrediable!

If you think that you "threw my argument back in my face" I don't think you did nearly that. I haven't said I hate anybody, at least not in the sense you refer to. I respect everyone on this board, and their opinion, not to mention your right to it! America is far from the most tolerent country. Almost any of the major countries in Europe don't care what religion you are. There is a lot of racism in our country, there's no way to deny it. It's somewhat natural in my opinion, but something we must overcome. As said above, most of the world is Muslim, so they obviously are doing something right. Not bad for being "godless" heathens, right?

Offiss, do you know what Agnostic is? It's not Atheist like often believed. It means I believe in a god, but I'm not sure exactly what. I feel that every man builds his own hybrid religion and as long as you live a good life and try your best to stick true to your morals and scrupples, then there will be no trouble in the afterlife.

JoeRedskin: I used the wrong word when I said that religions were founded by war. I didn't mean it quite like that, but most religious books have a lot of battles and fighting in them, do you not agree? I mean, Jesus himself died in quite a gruesome manner, there were wars, and religion has done a lot to fuel tensions leading to wars. I don't think someone could argue the other way very well.

I do agree that FOR THE MOST PART organized religion has done good. However, it has also done a lot of bad things. I mean warm meals for the homeless, blankets, food drives, the charitiable things that Churches do are countless. I thank them for that. However, organized religion has also caused a lot of suffering throughout the world for some times. Some of the nastiest, longest wars are because of religion. Look at the Middle East now and see how things are happening.

I would love to talk to you about religion sometime, JoeRedskin. I have quite a few questions for you, things I have always wondered. Perhaps you can clear some of them up for me. Do you have AIM? If so, try IMing me Daseal0

[offiss]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

I was hanging in there (mostly) with you offiss until this one. I am not sure what view point it is that you are saying the country was founded upon but I think you are tying it to christianity. If that is the case, I would have to disagree. While there was a strong belief in the existence of an almighty by the founding fathers, many of them were not christians in the traditional sense or in the manner we understand christians today. Rather, for the most part they were masonic, a sect of christianity which was based on secrecy and mysticism. Further, outside of the anglican southern elites and the northeastern puritans (or puritan-like sects), the majority of the country did not consider themselves "religious" by old-world standards.

The role and force of religion in American culture, history and politics is considerably convoluted. While almost always unanimous in the belief that we are a country "blessed by God", within certain broad parameters, the understanding and description of the God that is blessing us has varied greatly and, quite frankly, from our inception that has not necessarily involved the "Christian" God as defined in modern day society.

Also, to assert that a nation founded upon islam is doomed is, I believe, overly broad. I think (and I may be wrong) that Islam is the majority religion in the world. Further, there are many stable prosperous countries in which islam is the majority religion but not necessarily the "state religion". In countries which adopt islam as the state religion, yes there seems to be a pattern of problems. I would suggest, however, that comes more from the adoption of a "state" religion rather than from the religion chosen. (By the way, the Roman Empire, the Athenian Empire, the Han & Chin dynasties, the Khanate, the Mayan, Incan and Aztec Empires all existed for much longer time period than the US has as of yet and did so without the benefit of christianity).

IF HOWEVER, it is your suggestion that, as part of our country's founding and fundamental to our continued growth, is the recognition a "God" does exist and that we, as his creatures, must acknowledge his existence and seek his way, then yes, I acknowledge that and agree that the many ways people have done that through the history of this country has enhanced its growth and prosperity.


Damn, I am too long winded. I am sure by the time I have posted this, everyone else will have responded and rendered my (once again) brilliant points and theories moot.

JR the last phrase you wrote probably sum's up a lot of what I was trying to say, you are very correct that not all our fore father's were christian's, but most of our law's and thier intent of the law's were set forth according to the bible, as well if you research personal quotes of men such as washington, and jefferson, you will find quotes like, the day this nation turn's it's back on the lord god shall surely be it's end, many quotes along those lines that really give an idea behind the intent of the structure of this country, I am very aware of the critisism that comes these day's with crediting GOD for any good fortune that is bestowed upon us as individual's, as well as a country, but that lack of acknowledgement is exactly what the fore father's had warned us about, but it was only a matter of time before our country started to beat it's chest and discredit god for the abundance in which he has taken care of us, and claim credit for ourselves, it's the nature of man kind, and it's not just here in america, but we are the final frontier.

[JoeRedskin]

As with any good thing Daseal, its misuse can have evil consequences. Further, how better for evil to discredit good than by taking potent tools of good and using them for evil purposes. Undoubtedly, countless wars have been fought in the name of God; torture, greed, lust and many many other abuses have justified, sanctioned or otherwise corrupted the power created by humanity's attempt to jointly worship and understand "God". To me, however, this does not discredit the use, encouragement or growth of organized religion. Rather, what the misuse of organized religion should show us is not that organized religion itself is bad but that it is a powerful force and, as it can be manipulated, we must be careful invoking the name of God in causes which require the use of destructive force against others.

As for the middle east, is it your assertion that organized religion is the root of its current problems?? I would suggest to you (as I thought you were trying to point out in other places in this thread) that the majority of organized islam opposes the radical fundamentalism which is the root of so much of the ME's problems right now. -- In fact, I think the ME demonstrate's my point exactly. It is not Islam that calls for the destruction of the US or for sunni to kill shi'a; it is the misuse of that religion by certain radical clerics and their followers that is the root of the region's problems. By taking sayings and lessons out of context and twisting them to selfish ends in an effort to gain temproral power, these small factions corrupt the essentially peaceful, positive message of Islam.

I also am afraid I disagree with you on T. Paine being a great mind. Undoubtedly, his "common sense" was a large motivitional factor in sparking the revolution. I read it ages ago, and as I recall, it struck me as rambling, reheated, less thought out Hume w/ a pre Marxian bent. I will look at it again. It is my understanding, however, that Paine was considered pretty much "out there" by the other founding fathers. Other then his pre-revolution writings, he was not much of a mover and shaker in early American politics. Both he and Sam (not John) Adams were pretty much marginalized after the war.

I may have AIM, I don't know - what is it?. I am a completely useless on that sort of stuff. If I can't point and click, I am pretty much lost. : )

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

Hey guys,

Looks like things may be getting a little heated on this topic. Let's agree to disagree and move on if the discussions can't stay civilized. I'd hate to see someone get booted because they lost their cool.

Thanks

Please don't boot me pleeeaaaaaseeeee. I can't help it if Daseal is a godless, commie sympathizing, american bashing jerk; and that offiss is a neo-skinhead, fundamentalist uberpatriot war monger!! I must set them right, I must, I must!!!

[Dave Butz Baby!]

To come back to the original purpose of this post (and not to interrupt the debate), but it appears that the US Government has in fact declared Pat Tillman a hero. He was awarded the Silver Star today for performing his duty "without regard to his personal safety". He returned to an ambush to save the remainder of his platoon who was surrounded by hostile forces.

From the AP...

The Army gave the following account of Tillman's actions:

"Tillman's platoon was split into two sections. Tillman was the team leader of the lead section when the trail section began receiving suppressive mortar and small-arms fire. ... [The] cavernous terrain made it extremely difficult to target enemy positions, and there was no room for the trail element to maneuver out of the kill zone.

Even though his element was out of the area that had come under fire, Tillman "ordered his team to dismount and maneuvered his team up a hill toward the enemy's location," the Army said.

During the battle, he issued "fire commands to take the fight to the enemy on the dominating high ground," the statement continued.

"Only after his team engaged the well-armed enemy did it appear their fires diminished."

Because of Tillman's leadership and his team's efforts, the trail section under fire "was able to maneuver through the ambush to positions of safety without a single casualty," the Army said.

He did save many of his fellow soldiers. This would make him a hero in the traditional sense of the word.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

Please don't boot me pleeeaaaaaseeeee. I can't help it if Daseal is a godless, commie sympathizing, american bashing jerk; and that offiss is a neo-skinhead, fundamentalist uberpatriot war monger!! I must set them right, I must, I must!!!

Let's just keep things under control, that's all I ask.