There goes the neighborhood - Tunisia Edition

[That Guy]

Originally Posted by Alvin Walton

Cracks me up when people bring up the Crusades.
How long ago was that?

to those in the middle east, the stories are retold as if it happened yesterday. they can hold a grudge.

[los panda]

i always accept what i'm told as the truth

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by BleedBurgundy

Might want to broaden your frame of reference a bit. Once you do, I'm sure you'll find plenty of violent behavior attributable to the western religions you mentioned. (hmm... Crusades? Salem witch trials? Catholic persecution of scientists)

Of course you're right, Christians do nothing but perpetrate violence on others. Nice you needed to reach back hundreds of years for your references.

And regarding the US, let's cut the shit. Any dollar that makes its way into the ME is sent with the underlying purpose of subverting their chosen way of life in favor of the western style which we, in our infinite wisdom, have decided to force upon the rest of the world. If they want to live under an Islamist government, that's their right. We don't have the moral authority to get involved. If we had abstained from being so goddamned proactive in the affairs of other nations, there's a good chance that there would never have been a 9/11. Just because we send some funds their way does not mean we have the right to interfere.

Any interference/funding in the ME has a lot more to do with secular U.S. interests (goodwill/positive outreach are generally better for business than violence) that promoting a religious agenda.

With regards to the violence we're discussing, it can be boiled down to two simple factors:

1) religion provides the moral authority to do violence against those who have beliefs contrary to yours. (contrasted with agnostics and atheists who don't have any supernatural father figure to tell them it's alright to go mass murder each other)

2) the US has repeatedly ****ed with these people in such various and obscenely short sighted ways that we are now collectively reaping what we have sewn.

Those two pieces combined result in what we are experiencing now. Impossible to deny.

While we're cutting through shit, let's cut through your shit. You're quite anti-religious and paint with a very broad brush in your negative (and very condescending) statements against those who are religious. While you focus on the violence done by religious extremists, or those who manipulate people using religion, you never mention the vast good people who are religious do everyday in the name of their God/religion.

And while agnostics/atheists may not have a "supernatural father figure" that tells them to commit murder, those that want to commit violence for secular reasons (money/power/statism) don't have any moral compass to hold them back from mass murder. For example; tens of millions murdered by Communist regimes such as the USSR, China, Cuba, etc. Japan's persecution of Christians in the 1600-1800s, Mexico's persecution in the early 1900s.

Look at the violence in U.S. society today, most of it is over $$$, drugs, etc....purely secular. It's pretty old to hear athetists/agnostics bash religion every chance they get with weak arguments.

[Alvin Walton]

Originally Posted by That Guy

to those in the middle east, the stories are retold as if it happened yesterday. they can hold a grudge.

Suck to be that medieval.....
The can also hold a drone dropped JDAM up their wazoo then.

[Alvin Walton]

Originally Posted by BleedBurgundy

Don't you just love religion. Look at our omnipotent deity working in mysterious ways! Isn't it glorious? Praise jeebus. Also, way to go America for sticking your collective nose where it doesn't belong for decades. That policy is clearly working out for you. You should stick with that.

Purely a matter of opinion, and since we are invited their by their govts in most cases that argument never held any water with me. Especially in Bin Ladens case.
Islam and Islamic extremists are not a govt nor are they a uniformed army.

[That Guy]

if bombs solved everything, america would be issue free. things just typically aren't that simple though.

[BleedBurgundy]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

Of course you're right, Christians do nothing but perpetrate violence on others. Nice you needed to reach back hundreds of years for your references.

A recent example? Damn, you got me... wait, except for this minor incident. And these...

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

While we're cutting through shit, let's cut through your shit. You're quite anti-religious and paint with a very broad brush in your negative (and very condescending) statements against those who are religious.

All true, and I often forget to account for the power of prayer. (Now that's condescending!)

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

And while agnostics/atheists may not have a "supernatural father figure" that tells them to commit murder, those that want to commit violence for secular reasons (money/power/statism) don't have any moral compass to hold them back from mass murder. For example; tens of millions murdered by Communist regimes such as the USSR, China, Cuba, etc.

No these regimes do not require holy authority, which is why in addition to my normal anti-religion shit talking I was also coming out against US Foreign Policy. (remember, there were two components of my argument...) We potentially kill innocents with every drone strike, let's not pretend we operate on a higher moral level. Also... with all of our awesome dedication to the sanctity of human life, we're still the only society that's ever done this:

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

Look at the violence in U.S. society today, most of it is over $$$, drugs, etc....purely secular.

Sammy, I don't know you personally, but I love you. In a completely old testament, love thy neighbor sort of way. That said, the above quote is borderline retarded. It's a complete straw man argument in that I never said Christians were run amok throughout the US causing mayhem. Or the majority of mayhem. But certainly SOME mayhem. When I think of crimes involving money, sex and drugs (oh so secular), i can't help but think of this and this, and, just because I'm originally from Lancaster, PA, i've got to include this.

[Alvin Walton]

pfffftttt
You played the Hiroshima card?
Do you have any clue how many people would have died if we would have had to invade Japan?
You may be polarized by the atomic bomb but it was the best option at the time.

[BleedBurgundy]

Originally Posted by Alvin Walton

Purely a matter of opinion, and since we are invited their by their govts in most cases that argument never held any water with me. Especially in Bin Ladens case.
Islam and Islamic extremists are not a govt nor are they a uniformed army.

Surely, and of course the opinion of the invaders should carry more weight than that of the invaded. Also... for ****'s sake, let's remember that the US and USSR played a role in creating these terrorists. Would they exist in the same context as they currently do had those two nations not spent decades using them as pawns? I think it might have played a role. /condescending!

Sure, I'm a commie bastard... but what about our Secretary of State?

[BleedBurgundy]

Originally Posted by Alvin Walton

pfffftttt
You played the Hiroshima card?
Do you have any clue how many people would have died if we would have had to invade Japan?

No, do you?

And by the way... played the Hiroshima card? Seriously??? We vaporized two cities. And then have the audacity to make sure that other nations never get their hands on this dangerous technology (yet we made sure to buy enough of them to wipe out all life on the planet) because we can't trust them not to use it. We can't be trusted not to use it! In short... that's a big ****ing card when you're talking about hypocrisy.

I can't say whether that was right or wrong. Not making that argument. Just saying that we as country get really preachy when history shows that we're not shy about ****ing people up who are ideologically opposed to us.

[Alvin Walton]

Originally Posted by BleedBurgundy

No, do you?

Yea, and so do a lot of other people.
Far more than that what the nukes killed.

[Alvin Walton]

Originally Posted by BleedBurgundy

No, do you?

And by the way... played the Hiroshima card? Seriously??? We vaporized two cities. And then have the audacity to make sure that other nations never get their hands on this dangerous technology (yet we made sure to buy enough of them to wipe out all life on the planet) because we can't trust them not to use it. We can't be trusted not to use it! In short... that's a big ****ing card when you're talking about hypocrisy.

I can't say whether that was right or wrong. Not making that argument. Just saying that we as country get really preachy when history shows that we're not shy about ****ing people up who are ideologically opposed to us.

If you understood and or lived thru the entire cold war you would understand why we did that.

[BleedBurgundy]

Originally Posted by Alvin Walton

Yea, and so do a lot of other people.
Far more than that what the nukes killed.

I'm looking for a number, since you're being definitive on one quantity vs. another. Obviously there is no such number. It's hypothetical.

That said, I think we can agree that it was the biggest single attack on a civilian population in the entire history of human civilization. And why do we hate terrorists? Oh yeah, because they're willing to blow up non-combatant citizens. You can't make the argument for one and not the other. It just doesn't exist. The only differentiator is scale.

[Alvin Walton]

Originally Posted by BleedBurgundy

I'm looking for a number, since you're being definitive on one quantity vs. another. Obviously there is no such number. It's hypothetical.

That said, I think we can agree that it was the biggest single attack on a civilian population in the entire history of human civilization. And why do we hate terrorists? Oh yeah, because they're willing to blow up non-combatant citizens. You can't make the argument for one and not the other. It just doesn't exist. The only differentiator is scale.

Hiroshima was a military target that was chosen because of its industry, naval ports and military headquarters. Not because of its civilian population.
Pretty common knowledge.....

[BleedBurgundy]

Originally Posted by Alvin Walton

If you understood and or lived thru the entire cold war you would understand why we did that.

Would there have been a cold war if the US wasn't so goddamned self assured that their form of government didn't have to be the prevailing form of government for other nations? No, we played the who's got a bigger dick game and, luckily, won. Doesn't mean that we didn't open pandora's box.

Look, this is getting really off track... I think i've made my case, which is simply that the US is both hypocritical and grossly arrogant in it's foreign policy, and that as a partial result of that hypocrisy/arrogance the Middle East pays a price in terms of borderline constant destabilization. The region has historically been a cluster ****, but that doesn't mean we haven't contributed a whole lot of f*ckery to the equation.