2012 Training Camp Competitions Open Discussion

[30gut]

Originally Posted by Chico23231

Please tell me why the Shanny's go out and get least talented players to start over Reed? Reed is a backup at best. Another instance of stats lying to ya.

I wasn't aware anyone had been named or given the starting job.
Shanahan is all about competition and if Meriweather, Jackson or M.Williams prove to be better then I'm sure they'll start.
And my guess as Shanny's thinking behind bringing in those players is the hope that they can resurrect their careers and return to a level of play that might only exist in the past.
If Meriweather or Jackson could return to the players they were 2 and 3 years ago it would be sweet.
All, I'm saying is that I doubt it.

When you compare each player you would be lying if you said that last year any of them played better then Reed. (that's despite the fact that Reed had a bad year.

Personally, I think we should placed greater priority on addressing the safety position then we did.

But, short of that if all things are equal I want to see youth.

BTW-
football outsider/profootball focus go to great lengths to ensure the validity of their metrics

[30gut]

Originally Posted by mooby

I agree. If the coaches felt Reed didn't bring anything to the table, they wouldn't be wasting a roster spot on him.

Yup, Reed survived the purging of a regime change with coaches that owed him no allegiance.

Originally Posted by Lotus

Oh, I disagree. Doughty is very capable as a backup.

But he should be a backup only. Having him start would speak negative volumes about our talent/skill level at safety.

Reed has been a capable starting SS, just not well liked or appreciated by fans.
2011-11 starts
2010-9 starts
2009-7 starts

I would love it if we found a Safety or 2 that are better then Doughty.
Nothing would make me happier.
I just question whether the guys we brought in are them.
Its gonna be an interesting competition to watch.

[Gary84Clark]

Originally Posted by 30gut

Yup, Reed survived the purging of a regime change with coaches that owed him no allegiance.

Reed is okay but we need a FS that can cover like a corner.

[Lotus]

Originally Posted by 30gut

Yup, Reed survived the purging of a regime change with coaches that owed him no allegiance.

Reed has been a capable starting SS, just not well liked or appreciated by fans.
2011-11 starts
2010-9 starts
2009-7 starts

I would love it if we found a Safety or 2 that are better then Doughty.
Nothing would make me happier.
I just question whether the guys we brought in are them.
Its gonna be an interesting competition to watch.

As far as Doughty's being a "capable" starter - I appreciate his attitude. I appreciate his grit. I appreciate his understanding of the defense. I appreciate his discipline. I appreciate his play recognition. What I don't appreciate is his speed, which seems to always leave him one step too late in arriving.

[Chico23231]

Originally Posted by Lotus

As far as Doughty's being a "capable" starter - I appreciate his attitude. I appreciate his grit. I appreciate his understanding of the defense. I appreciate his discipline. I appreciate his play recognition. What I don't appreciate is his speed, which seems to always leave him one step too late in arriving.

Takes bad angles too. Reed and Rocky needed to take remedial geometry.

[Chico23231]

Originally Posted by 30gut

I wasn't aware anyone had been named or given the starting job.
Shanahan is all about competition and if Meriweather, Jackson or M.Williams prove to be better then I'm sure they'll start.
And my guess as Shanny's thinking behind bringing in those players is the hope that they can resurrect their careers and return to a level of play that might only exist in the past.
If Meriweather or Jackson could return to the players they were 2 and 3 years ago it would be sweet.
All, I'm saying is that I doubt it.

When you compare each player you would be lying if you said that last year any of them played better then Reed. (that's despite the fact that Reed had a bad year.

Personally, I think we should placed greater priority on addressing the safety position then we did.

But, short of that if all things are equal I want to see youth.

BTW-
football outsider/profootball focus go to great lengths to ensure the validity of their metrics

If Reed is starting over them this year, wow. Here we go again with bottom of the league safety play.

[30gut]

Originally Posted by Chico23231

If Reed is starting over them this year, wow. Here we go again with bottom of the league safety play.

huh?
So if Reed wins the job it means the Safety play is going to be bad?
But, if 1 of the worst 2 safeties in the NFL last year win the job the safety play is gonna be good?

[Chico23231]

Originally Posted by 30gut

huh?
So if Reed wins the job it means the Safety play is going to be bad?
But, if 1 of the worst 2 safeties in the NFL last year win the job the safety play is gonna be good?

An emphatic YES

30, I always appreciate your opinion, but dont you agree better safety play means overall better play on defense? And not just Reed, Gomes too. I mean, Jackson and Merriweather are just as responsible as well. I know both the last year have struggled, and go back and read, I was not a fan of the initial Merriweather signing one bit. But I think both bring better potential to that side of the field than Reed or Gomes. I want the youth movement too, lets see how camp plays out.

[artmonkforhallofamein07]

Jackson will play well and I think at this point at looking at players on paper he is the best we have.

[30gut]

Your answer might be emphatic, but its far from logical.
And to be clear the Redskins did not have league worst safety play last year.
They were decent in pass defense 12th.

30, I always appreciate your opinion, but dont you agree better safety play means overall better play on defense?

Of course.
But, I'm not gonna start believing in ghosts to upgrade the safety play just because it makes me feel good.

Expecting Meriweather or Tanard Jackson based on last years actual on the field play is akin to pissing on my leg and telling me its raining.

But I think both bring better potential to that side of the field than Reed or Gomes. I want the youth movement too, lets see how camp plays out

I could name a long (and recent) list of ghosts that this FO has chased that haven't panned out.
But, suffice it to say that nothing about the recent play of either Meriweather or Jackson suggest that they'll be better then Reed much less return to the players they were 2-3 years ago.
I hope like heck they do, but if i was in the FO I certainly wouldn't be going in their direction.

Me thinks you're dislike of Reed Doughty clearly clouds your evaluation of him as a player.
And what is to stop Gomes form playing at a high level?
Gomes already plays as well or better then Meriweather or Jackson played last year and there always the possiblity of improvement with young players.

The Redskins cut O.J. Atogwe and saw LaRon Landry sign with the Jets in free agency, so they will have two new starting safeties next year, and not necessarily very good ones. Tanard Jackson finished third in our broken tackle count last year, but since he only played 10 games, his 16 broken tackles work out to a horrid 33.3 percent broken tackle rate. Jackson claims that he'll be better once he recovers from a shoulder injury, but that injury is the main reason Tampa Bay cut him. The current plan is to put Brandon Meriweather next to Jackson, but the Patriots were so sick of his freelancing that they cut him before last season, and the Bears were so sick of his freelancing that they benched him after four games. When Washington inevitably gets sick of him, they still have veteran Reed Doughty and youngster DeJon Gomes, who are both strong box safeties but struggle in coverage. They also added Madieu Williams, a seven-year veteran with the Bengals, Vikings, and 49ers.

FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | Four Downs: NFC East

Reed Doughty comes in at 7th on the "Best DBs" list, with only 3 broken tackles with 75 tackles, a 3.8% rate. The surest DB, Jason Allen, comes in at a 0% rate with 0 broken with 55 tackles. The worst DB is Asante Samuel - 14 broken with 39 tackles......

...in 2010 according to Football Outsiders Doughty carried a 63% 'Success Rate' in all plays he was involved in - good enough to rank him 14th in the NFL amongst his SS peers. He has improved every year...

Top 10 Run Defense Ratings for Safeties (2011)
2011's Best Performances: Safeties | ProFootballFocus.com

1. Troy Polamalu (PIT), Wildcard at Denver (+3.8)

2t. Troy Polamalu (PIT), Week 10 at Cincinnati (+2.8)

2t. Ryan Mundy (PIT), Wildcard at Denver (+2.8)

4. Thomas Decoud (ATL), Week 13 at Houston (+2.5)

5t. Reed Doughty (WAS), Week 7 at Carolina (+2.4)

5t. Tyvon Branch (OAK), Week 9 vs. Denver (+2.4)

5t. Quintin Mikell (SL), Week 15 vs. Cincinnati (+2.4)

8t. Troy Polamalu (PIT), Week 16 at St Louis (+2.3)

8t. Kam Chancellor (SEA), Week 1 at San Francisco (+2.3)

8t. Reed Doughty (WAS), Week 13 vs. New York Jets (+2.3)

8t. Roman Harper (NO), Week 10 at Atlanta (+2.3)


https://www.profootballfocus.com/blo...fensive-backs/

[JGisLordOfTheRings]

Originally Posted by Chico23231

An emphatic YES

30, I always appreciate your opinion, but dont you agree better safety play means overall better play on defense? And not just Reed, Gomes too. I mean, Jackson and Merriweather are just as responsible as well. I know both the last year have struggled, and go back and read, I was not a fan of the initial Merriweather signing one bit. But I think both bring better potential to that side of the field than Reed or Gomes. I want the youth movement too, lets see how camp plays out.

READ THIS HOW IT IS WRITTEN, IN ALLLLLLLLL CAPS! You can have a good pass rush all day long, but if any QB can throw it up and KNOW damn good and well that no one back there is fast enough to get behind their WR to pick it or at least break it up, this year is gonna be like the Eagles Masssacre ALLLLLLLL over again.

The SS, FS and CB position scare the flying monkey shit out me this year. Remember '06? The only reason every team we played didn't score 40+ every game is because of the late, great SEAN FUGGIN TAYLOR(RIP).

[REDSKINS4ever]

Originally Posted by Gary84Clark

Reed is okay but we need a FS that can cover like a corner.

Hopefully Cedric Griffin can fill that role. He has experience playing corner and he's slated to play safety this season.

[Chico23231]

Originally Posted by 30gut

Your answer might be emphatic, but its far from logical.
And to be clear the Redskins did not have league worst safety play last year.
They were decent in pass defense 12th.

Of course.
But, I'm not gonna start believing in ghosts to upgrade the safety play just because it makes me feel good.

Expecting Meriweather or Tanard Jackson based on last years actual on the field play is akin to pissing on my leg and telling me its raining.

I could name a long (and recent) list of ghosts that this FO has chased that haven't panned out.
But, suffice it to say that nothing about the recent play of either Meriweather or Jackson suggest that they'll be better then Reed much less return to the players they were 2-3 years ago.
I hope like heck they do, but if i was in the FO I certainly wouldn't be going in their direction.

Me thinks you're dislike of Reed Doughty clearly clouds your evaluation of him as a player.
And what is to stop Gomes form playing at a high level?
Gomes already plays as well or better then Meriweather or Jackson played last year and there always the possiblity of improvement with young players.

FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | Four Downs: NFC East

Reed Doughty comes in at 7th on the "Best DBs" list, with only 3 broken tackles with 75 tackles, a 3.8% rate. The surest DB, Jason Allen, comes in at a 0% rate with 0 broken with 55 tackles. The worst DB is Asante Samuel - 14 broken with 39 tackles......

...in 2010 according to Football Outsiders Doughty carried a 63% 'Success Rate' in all plays he was involved in - good enough to rank him 14th in the NFL amongst his SS peers. He has improved every year...

Top 10 Run Defense Ratings for Safeties (2011)
2011's Best Performances: Safeties | ProFootballFocus.com

1. Troy Polamalu (PIT), Wildcard at Denver (+3.8)

2t. Troy Polamalu (PIT), Week 10 at Cincinnati (+2.8)

2t. Ryan Mundy (PIT), Wildcard at Denver (+2.8)

4. Thomas Decoud (ATL), Week 13 at Houston (+2.5)

5t. Reed Doughty (WAS), Week 7 at Carolina (+2.4)

5t. Tyvon Branch (OAK), Week 9 vs. Denver (+2.4)

5t. Quintin Mikell (SL), Week 15 vs. Cincinnati (+2.4)

8t. Troy Polamalu (PIT), Week 16 at St Louis (+2.3)

8t. Kam Chancellor (SEA), Week 1 at San Francisco (+2.3)

8t. Reed Doughty (WAS), Week 13 vs. New York Jets (+2.3)

8t. Roman Harper (NO), Week 10 at Atlanta (+2.3)


https://www.profootballfocus.com/blo...fensive-backs/

Why are we bringing all these safeties, vets and rookies, to displace this great player? Why havent we signed Reed to a long term deal? Its just not logical, is it?

[30gut]

Originally Posted by Chico23231

Why are we bringing all these safeties, vets and rookies, to displace this great player? Why havent we signed Reed to a long term deal? Its just not logical, is it?

C'mon Chico, don't do that crap bro, where have I ever said that Reed is a great player?

And if you want to play that game why was a 1st round pick safety with 2 "pro-bowls" cut by the team that drafted him signed by a team that ran a similar 2-deep scheme then benched and cut by that team?

Look it, and this is the last I'll say about it.
Reed is an average SS in the NFL.<-----not an opinion
Our safety position could stand an upgrade.
Based on how the safeties we signed performed last year(<----not an opinion they were BAD) I doubt they will provide that upgrade.
Your contention that the they will be better then Reed seems to based soley on your dislike for Reed and your desire to see improved safety play.
I guess the grass is always greener.

[30gut]

Originally Posted by REDSKINS4ever

Hopefully Cedric Griffin can fill that role. He has experience playing corner and he's slated to play safety this season.

Cedric Griffin was a poor coverage corner that couldn't tackle.
I don't understand why people think he can play FS.