When is Enough ,Enough?

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Originally Posted by Chico23231

No. The media certainly has the right to critique the meeting and the signed document/agreement thingy.



But when NBC Today show starts the show with what "Trump gave away" as a headline or CNN runs headlines on the website "Nothing was changed or gained" then we have a problem with honesty. You need to provide context, perspective and all the facts. You cant provide the American People half the facts, just like you cant declare victory from yesterday. A story as big as this should be framed properly. I know you don't get it, but

I love how you refer to the actual agreement as a “thingy”. Lol. Good job.

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Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

I think it can be compared to how the praises were sung after the Iran deal.



Iran is not a much better actor than NK.



We both admit our biases here, but I think you still credit non Fox news as way too credible for what they really are.



News outlets today are simply sycophants for their preferred policies, and the politicians that support them.

But the difference is their tune hasn’t changed on the Iran deal. They have been consistent. It was not a perfect deal but it was / is better than nothing. They still say that after Trump ripped it up and replaced it with nothing. So unless he does create a better deal which is what he said he would do we have no way to judge their “potential” bias.
However Fox is completely 100% changing their tune on a POTUS meeting face to face with a foreign dictator.
Apples and oranges my friend.

[CRedskinsRule]

No you miss my point.

And it wasnt clearly expressed. Not sure i can. But here it goes.

My hypothesis is that had obama made a deal with nk instead if iran, the msm coverage would have run much like the love for obama around the iran deal. And if trump had made a deal with iran, it would have been him dealing with an evil empire and saying iran isnt trustworthy.


The news no longer cares what reality is only which side they want to present.

[Chico23231]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

I think it can be compared to how the praises were sung after the Iran deal.

Iran is not a much better actor than NK.

We both admit our biases here, but I think you still credit non Fox news as way too credible for what they really are.

News outlets today are simply sycophants for their preferred policies, and the politicians that support them.

The axis of evil....Ole Dub wasn't wrong about that.

NK and Iran are fairly dangerous in their own respect. NK being isolated really hurts their effectiveness as a country when its comes down to influence. They lack a respectable position even in their region. Militarily, they cannot fuel or feed their army either.

Iran on the other hand is the top Shai Muslim country in the world with a competent army. They have an intelligent service which is effective for that region...globally not so much. BUT, they have been have a competent money funneling system where they support Terrorism throughout the world. What is really strange about Iran is their people are relatively "modern" for the region and the country is more liberal than its Suni counterparts...Why that doesn't translate into their government is a strange....but it goes to show that the Ayatollah holds the most power in the country.

If you had to point to which is the more "dangerous" country? I think Iran easily wins...even with NK with a nuclear weapon...even if they can deliver it on a rocket. I think Iran with a nuclear weapon would be extremely dangerous with their terrorist connections.

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Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

No you miss my point.

And it wasnt clearly expressed. Not sure i can. But here it goes.

My hypothesis is that had obama made a deal with nk instead if iran, the msm coverage would have run much like the love for obama around the iran deal. And if trump had made a deal with iran, it would have been him dealing with an evil empire and saying iran isnt trustworthy.


The news no longer cares what reality is only which side they want to present.

I hear you, but,..... CRed no liberal news media outlets are ripping Trump for meeting with Kim. They are ripping what he said and accomplished (or didn’t accomplish). Maybe they would have praised Obama if he said and accomplished the same thing. But that is a huge hypothetical. The right wing news media is clearly contradicting their stance on the actual meeting itself. They are clearly applauding this as a first step and ignoring what actually happened, and they clearly scoffed at Obama for wanting to meet with Kim?
Again apples and oranges.

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I have heard the liberal news media outlets give credit to Trump on several occasions. They may not make a habit of it but as left wingers you cannot expect them to get behind much of his policy and certainly have to understand they will never get behind his persona. I can also say I have NEVER heard Fox doubt or criticize Trump for anything. The man made fun of a handicapped person for christ sake. No if ands or buts about it and it was no big deal. They actually tried to say that is just the way Trump moves. Lol. If Obama had done that exact thing he would have “a special place in hell”. He would have been sub human, and they would have bought in handicapped people by the bus load to lament the words and gestures made by Obama.
The bias swings both ways because of policy and stance on what both sides believe is right and wrong. That is completely understandable. But again ive heard some bend from the left on several things Trump has said or done or signed. Not one time have i heard negative response from the right on anything Trump has ever said or done. Not once. Maybe it is because Trump himself cannot apologize. Central park 5, birtherism? Can he just admit he was wrong? Can Fox? The left does admit wrong. Obama has apologized. The right used to. Until Trump. This isn’t a right vs left thing anymore. It is left vs one man and the rights inability to ever say he was wrong about anything. Bias pendulum is clearly heavier on one side than it ever was before Trump.

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The leftist news media is literally just saying, “hey dont trust kim jung un, he has made hollow promises before”. “Do not take our troops/insurance policy off the peninsula “. “You gave alot of concessions based on a murderous dictators umpteenth promise to de nuke”. None of them are saying it was a bad idea to go there (like Fox did when obama wanted to). It is cautious optimism. It is Kim Jung Un for crying out loud. Trump wants to hear them all sing “for he is a jolly good fellow” and he deserves the nobel peace prize.
Trump is again making the news media out to be the enemy of the state because they wont cheer the “honest, smart, loving of his people Jung un”. It is crazy. Absolutely crazy. Let Trump take his victory lap. Let Fox News slobber all over a handshake and hollow promise of a mad man. Ill be damned if I will. How can he tweet that NK is no longer a nuclear threat, and expect the praise of the news media? It is lunacy. Obama, Clinton, Bush, effin George Washington would never jump to such absurd conclusions based on a photo op.

[CRedskinsRule]

Ok, let's be clear - I'm NOT a defender of Fox News, they are a clearly biased agents.

What I do believe, and think it's amazing when rational people can't see past their biases, is that CNN, and even moreso MSNBC are very much biased agents also.

Ultimately, with every presidency and presidential action, like with NFL drafts the full scope of the actions will be judged by the annals of time.

My belief is that Trump has navigated a very bad situation (NK with nukes) in an effective way, and the people handling the negotiations (which is not Trump but Pompeo and Bolton) are people I trust to ensure that we don't make irrevocable bad deals to get to a lasting peace.

I also believe that Obama was the equivalent of Chamberlain with the Iran deal. He was intent on having peace with Iran in his legacy but instead left them in a position to expand their territory and bases like Chamberlain did with Hitler.

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Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

Ok, let's be clear - I'm NOT a defender of Fox News, they are a clearly biased agents.



What I do believe, and think it's amazing when rational people can't see past their biases, is that CNN, and even moreso MSNBC are very much biased agents also.



Ultimately, with every presidency and presidential action, like with NFL drafts the full scope of the actions will be judged by the annals of time.



My belief is that Trump has navigated a very bad situation (NK with nukes) in an effective way, and the people handling the negotiations (which is not Trump but Pompeo and Bolton) are people I trust to ensure that we don't make irrevocable bad deals to get to a lasting peace.



I also believe that Obama was the equivalent of Chamberlain with the Iran deal. He was intent on having peace with Iran in his legacy but instead left them in a position to expand their territory and bases like Chamberlain did with Hitler.

I can agree with pretty much all of this except when u called Bolton a peace maker. That made me throw up in my mouth a little bit. 🤢

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by punch it in

I can agree with pretty much all of this except when u called Bolton a peace maker. That made me throw up in my mouth a little bit. 🤢

Lol. Yeah I don't think I called Bolton a peacemaker I certainly did not mean to. What I did mean to say is that Bolton and Pompeo are going to actively make sure that any agreements signed are to the betterment of US policy and certainly if they don't get full denuclearization then Bolton particularly probably would just say "fine Nukem"

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Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

Lol. Yeah I don't think I called Bolton a peacemaker I certainly did not mean to. What I did mean to say is that Bolton and Pompeo are going to actively make sure that any agreements signed are to the betterment of US policy and certainly if they don't get full denuclearization then Bolton particularly probably would just say "fine Nukem"

I wouldn’t be too sure about that. Lol. He is probably snooping around the Oval Office looking for the codes as we speak.

[CRedskinsRule]

One last thing, and I do - strongly - believe this, if NK moves at all out of China's sway, and starts to think that maybe they could have an economy like SK, that would give us a lot of sway in terms of human rights conditions. I understand that right now NK is abysmal, but we have zero sway over that, and they use our animosity as an excuse for the impoverishment.

This was published in the normally bellicose Rodong Sinmun (NK's state controlled media)

1. The DPRK and the United States commit to establish new DPRK-U.S. relations in accordance with the desire of the peoples of the two countries for peace and prosperity.

2. The DPRK and the United States will join their efforts to build a lasting and stable peace regime on the Korean Peninsula.

3. Reaffirming the April 27, 2018 Panmunjom Declaration, the DPRK commits to work toward complete denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula.

4. The DPRK and the United States commit to recovering POW/MIA remains, including the immediate repatriation of those already identified.

This is huge that they published it after years of editorials and news articles declaring the necessity of nuclear NK. And it means that they are presenting a new face of information to their people.

It's a dictatorship, so it's not like the people are going to have a say, but it also puts denuclearization out as a real thing.

IF they really had down a different path, there is a reason to hope that the people of NK will also benefit, both from better economics - no sanctions - and friendlier relationship with their southern brethren. AND IF the NK's see the life of SK's that will open up huge opportunity for humane reforms.

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Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

One last thing, and I do - strongly - believe this, if NK moves at all out of China's sway, and starts to think that maybe they could have an economy like SK, that would give us a lot of sway in terms of human rights conditions. I understand that right now NK is abysmal, but we have zero sway over that, and they use our animosity as an excuse for the impoverishment.



This was published in the normally bellicose Rodong Sinmun (NK's state controlled media)





This is huge that they published it after years of editorials and news articles declaring the necessity of nuclear NK. And it means that they are presenting a new face of information to their people.



It's a dictatorship, so it's not like the people are going to have a say, but it also puts denuclearization out as a real thing.



IF they really had down a different path, there is a reason to hope that the people of NK will also benefit, both from better economics - no sanctions - and friendlier relationship with their southern brethren. AND IF the NK's see the life of SK's that will open up huge opportunity for humane reforms.

CRed this is not the first time the little guy has referenced denuclearization to his people or the world though. This isn’t some wow moment. It is the same old same old. Also he is telling the people of NK that we too will de nuke - which Trump has absolutely no intention of doing. They are not on the same page. This is just a-lot of talk and pompous circumstance on both sides. We aren’t giving up our nukes. NK is not giving up theirs. We can all hope for denuclearization of the entire world, but u know as well as i do it aint happening. This was sadly nothing more than a photo op for both leaders to look good. Is it a first step. Sure. So is me depositing 100 dollars in my bank account on my way to a cool million.

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by punch it in

CRed this is not the first time the little guy has referenced denuclearization to his people or the world though. This isn’t some wow moment. It is the same old same old. Also he is telling the people of NK that we too will de nuke - which Trump has absolutely no intention of doing. They are not on the same page. This is just a-lot of talk and pompous circumstance on both sides. We aren’t giving up our nukes. NK is not giving up theirs. We can all hope for denuclearization of the entire world, but u know as well as i do it aint happening. This was sadly nothing more than a photo op for both leaders to look good. Is it a first step. Sure. So is me depositing 100 dollars in my bank account on my way to a cool million.

Wrong, I actually read Rodong Sinmun regularly. I don't know why, I don't have any attachment to Korea, I served in Germany, my exwife is from Germany, and my Dad served in Germany/Vietnam, my mom is German.

But 3 or 4 years ago I started reading the NK and SK state online press, and this is a HUGELY shift in policy and opinion pieces. I promise you, NK's haven't heard the tone in the opinions in the last 4 years ever.

I remember it was around when the Kaesong Plant was closed in 2013 that I really got interested. You can go back in the Korea threads, and see my thoughts. I promise - disregarding all of US media - the tone in NK changed drastically for the better.

standard disclaimer, until NK actually has a verifiable path in place, these good will gestures are just spectacle... It does seem to have substance behind it though.

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Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

Wrong, I actually read Rodong Sinmun regularly. I don't know why, I don't have any attachment to Korea, I served in Germany, my exwife is from Germany, and my Dad served in Germany/Vietnam, my mom is German.



But 3 or 4 years ago I started reading the NK and SK state online press, and this is a HUGELY shift in policy and opinion pieces. I promise you, NK's haven't heard the tone in the opinions in the last 4 years ever.



I remember it was around when the Kaesong Plant was closed in 2013 that I really got interested. You can go back in the Korea threads, and see my thoughts. I promise - disregarding all of US media - the tone in NK changed drastically for the better.



standard disclaimer, until NK actually has a verifiable path in place, these good will gestures are just spectacle... It does seem to have substance behind it though.

05, 07? He did not pledge to denuke?