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All things Middle East related

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Old 03-28-2016, 07:19 PM   #1
Schneed10
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Re: All things Middle East related

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in an effort to try and articulate a bit better...

170,000+ people have died in iraq (over 60% civilians) since our involvement began there, and the security situation is worse than when we started, both locally and globally - in large part because we helped to create the conditions necessary for isis to form and gain strength (and because we didn't pay enough attention to the political situation).

you literally just said that if we did the math and thought that would be the result, we shouldn't have gone in, yet in the same breath are advocating doing the exact same thing in syria, which is lunacy.

1. drop a bunch of US troops into a country where everyone hates them, blow a bunch of shit up (isis, assad, misc extremist militias), possibly get into a real war with russia.
2. ????
3. profit?

syria is one of russia's foreign bases, they have a vested interest there, while we really do not. if you think we should be world police and fight everyone all the time en masse, that's fine, but i hope you're signing up to enlist, cause we don't have that kind of manpower or budget for endless war. taking a short view of dropping US troops in an area as some kind of panacea is a view that has no common ground with reality.

what we do have is small groups of trainers and specialists that help us extend power and influence and act as force multipliers among foreign powers/armed forces. right now, believe it or not, we're actually winning in syria. we're moving slower than we could militarily because of the slow political process on the ground (which militia is going to move into this position, who's going to control or police this area once isis leaves, etc). big isis leaders are dying 2-3 times a week, and the platoons on the ground are generally dissolving once engaged now without a real fight (fading into the populace or running away).

the problem after isis (or assad/isis if that's your view) is that anyone with money (like doctors, etc) has generally left if they could, and there are real problems with basic things right now, like not starving to death. what you really need is a humanitarian/peace keeping mission after those guys are gone, and the US military is not the best avenue for that, as they're seen as an interfering foreign power and not as someone that's honestly trying to help just for the sake of helping. you need people that speak the language, aren't carrying guns and body armor, and aren't directly involved in midnight raids and arrests if you want any real trust.

anyways, my 2 cents.
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Old 03-28-2016, 08:37 PM   #2
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Re: All things Middle East related

While I generally don't agree with That Guy on a lot of politics, I am with him on this one.

Boots on the ground? If history has shown us anything, it has demonstrated that putting troops into a place is always easier than withdrawing them. Once Americans die, there had damn well better be a reason for being there and, if there is, we damn well better win. In the Middle East, barring the economic need for oil, there is no reason for young Americans to die. I bought into that theory once. Not again.

Who is in those boots? Young Americans fighting ... who? Assad? ISIS? For the rebels? For some of the Rebels but against others? With Turkey but not with the Kurds? And when in this mish mash of religious radicalism, rampant ethnic loyalty, and generally undemocratic forces, we end up siding with folks who - it turns out - also commit atrocities, we inevitably make more enemies.

ISIS is bad. Assad is bad. Many of the rebels are bad. Not a lot of folks fighting for "Truth Justice and the American Way."

I don't know what the right answer is. I am convinced, however, "boots on the ground" is the wrong answer unless their is a clear, rock-solid, exit strategy. Because war is messy - particularly the war being fought in the ME, I just don't see a scenario that warrants Americans dying in the dessert.
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Old 03-29-2016, 09:15 AM   #3
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Re: All things Middle East related

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While I generally don't agree with That Guy on a lot of politics, I am with him on this one.

Boots on the ground? If history has shown us anything, it has demonstrated that putting troops into a place is always easier than withdrawing them. Once Americans die, there had damn well better be a reason for being there and, if there is, we damn well better win. In the Middle East, barring the economic need for oil, there is no reason for young Americans to die. I bought into that theory once. Not again.

Who is in those boots? Young Americans fighting ... who? Assad? ISIS? For the rebels? For some of the Rebels but against others? With Turkey but not with the Kurds? And when in this mish mash of religious radicalism, rampant ethnic loyalty, and generally undemocratic forces, we end up siding with folks who - it turns out - also commit atrocities, we inevitably make more enemies.

ISIS is bad. Assad is bad. Many of the rebels are bad. Not a lot of folks fighting for "Truth Justice and the American Way."

I don't know what the right answer is. I am convinced, however, "boots on the ground" is the wrong answer unless their is a clear, rock-solid, exit strategy. Because war is messy - particularly the war being fought in the ME, I just don't see a scenario that warrants Americans dying in the dessert.
Here's the deal, and it's really a lot more simple than people want to make it. ISIS is coming to fight the West, whether you like it or not, no matter what.

They are either going to be permitted to operate in Iraq and Syria where they control lots of revenue-generating assets, and thus enabled to coordinate attacks throughout Europe, or someone is going to fight them on their turf, disrupting their ability to generate the cash necessary to fund their operations. But either way people are going to die, it's just a matter of how many, on whose side, and where that happens.

We are extremely fortunate here in the US that we don't face the same threat to our homeland that Europe does. Belgium demonstrates the severity of Europe's problem. So you could say there's no way we should put American boots on the ground without Europe (and Saudi Arabia and Jordan and Egypt and...) being along for the ride.

Except we were the ones who created the mess in the first place, by toppling Saddam and leaving before the power vacuum was adequately filled. So we, the United States of America, are to blame for creating an environment for ISIS to operate and fund its machine. Build a coalition, fine. But we have to go in. ISIS doesn't exist if we never toppled Saddam, and ISIS doesn't kill hundreds of Parisians and 30+ Belgians if not for our extremely serious mistakes.

Are these nations our NATO allies or not? We belong there, cleaning up our mess properly. Blame it on Bush if you want, that's appropriate. But nevertheless it's the mess we left. We can't just practice sea gull foreign policy - fly in, sqwauk a lot, shit all over the place, and fly away.

We have a responsibility to the world now, like it or not.
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Old 03-29-2016, 03:36 PM   #4
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Re: All things Middle East related

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They are either going to be permitted to operate in Iraq and Syria where they control lots of revenue-generating assets, and thus enabled to coordinate attacks throughout Europe, or someone is going to fight them on their turf, disrupting their ability to generate the cash necessary to fund their operations.
again, we're already doing this and the speed at which we're doing this is being bottle-necked by political concerns between the many groups on the ground, not by military limitations. throwing 30,000+ more americans in the way would, in all likelihood, make the situation even more complicated then it already is.
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Old 03-29-2016, 04:37 PM   #5
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Re: All things Middle East related

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again, we're already doing this and the speed at which we're doing this is being bottle-necked by political concerns between the many groups on the ground, not by military limitations. throwing 30,000+ more americans in the way would, in all likelihood, make the situation even more complicated then it already is.
2 things...essentially we will not at this point because the Iraq troops and Iranian Shia brigades have refused our help on combat troops (you know we are supporting Iranian troops on the ground...insane) You can call it an agreement or not, but right now at this moment, they don't want our help on the ground(but love our air campaign and proudly cheer it).

Now in the Peshmerga and Yadiz controlled areas(large chunk of Northern Iraq), their troops would absolutely welcome us with open arms. They have asked us to come. They have been far and away the most effective group fighting against ISIS...but we will not help them because of an agreement with Turkey. We refuse to even arm them, which is some cowardly-Obama, state department bullshit.

We do have 2 firebases right now near Mosel within the Peshmerga controlled area which will serve as artillery with the coming assault on that city. These are being run by several hundred US Marines *only* with top-line artillery pieces...we also have an airstrip built near by.

We don't need 30k troops...Im not gonna talk the past because Obama fuck it up already but before we certainly coulda handled fuckin ISIS with 5k troops at the time of the break-out...easily too.
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Old 03-28-2016, 09:05 PM   #6
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Re: All things Middle East related

I still have a hard time with folks who don't understand what's going on and who is Isis.

This is the greatest terror organization in the history of the modern world..they are well funded, have an army, are currently at war with the west, hold large swaths of land, are well trained, proven logistical capabilities to strike in multiple countries across the world. Have/used chemical weapons, currently seeking weapons of mass destruction. Their ability to recruit and communicate globally is unprecedented.

The nazis tried to hide their war crimes and their crimes against humanity...burned records, hid concentration camps, destroyed camps, etc. ISIS Proudly captures genocide on video and then distributes to everyone. Folks. Think about it.


We must understand a couple things...we are at war. We are spending tons of resources on them. And we do actually have some boots on the ground.

Two, this is a major problem within the Muslim community. We need to admit this and so do the folks within the religion.
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Old 03-28-2016, 11:09 PM   #7
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Re: All things Middle East related

Schneed is right if history could be changed we should have enacted the equivalent of a new Marshall plan after we toppled Saddam, bringing in US power to unite Iraq Saudi Arabia Jordan Egypt and Israel in a Mideast defense pact. Likely internal to the borders we could have strengthened the governments favorable to us, and in a real good case lifted the standard of living enough to move the needle away from extremism. Unfortunately, like in the aftermath of WW1, the world felt war weary and that simple good feelings would bring the peace of universal wisdom and enlightenment to that region.

Now we are in a world where the enemies of the US are in a stronger position. And the death toll to make civil society safe is gonna be a whole lot higher.


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Old 03-29-2016, 09:41 AM   #8
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Re: All things Middle East related

Obama had multiple opportunities to help end the Syrian Civil war. Obama had multiple opportunities to stop the ISIS breakout when they crossed into Iraq. Obama had multiple opportunities to not let ISIS dig in.

ISIS is clearly Obama problem and his willingness not to act. Pathetic to blame Bush. This is from a guy who hated the Bush administration.
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Old 04-16-2016, 04:23 PM   #9
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Re: All things Middle East related

Saudis warn of economic reprisals if Congress passes 9/11 bill - CNNPolitics.com

Well because Saudi Arabia tells the Obama to jump and how high and Obama promptly does it. I mean come on, tell the Saudis to fuck off. They don't threaten us economics...sell the shit. This administration is so effin weak.

And the government should release the 28 page classified report becuase 9/11 victims deserve to know what foreign government would sponsor the attack.
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Old 04-17-2016, 01:19 PM   #10
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Re: All things Middle East related

the saudis have been telling our presidents what to do for a long while now.
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Old 04-17-2016, 08:37 PM   #11
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Re: All things Middle East related

if we strip their countries sovereign immunity, does that mean families of civilians killed by US troops or the innocent people we've tortured can turn around and sue us?

because it seems like that's where that kind of precedent would lead. it's not just the saudis who think this might be a bad idea.
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Old 05-04-2016, 12:31 PM   #12
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Re: All things Middle East related

Clapper: ISIS can stage Europe-style attacks in U.S. - CNN.com

Well ISIS have already have "inspired" 3 attacks. Islamic Terrorists have already committed multiple lone wolf operations here and in Canada.

So now, the administration is admitting we are vulnerable to a direct isis attack. That's quite an admission, but really no surprise. Obama and his administration have left the country and the world in a much more unsafe place.
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Old 05-04-2016, 02:04 PM   #13
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Re: All things Middle East related

... and Hilary will continue increasing the hazard.
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Old 05-04-2016, 02:13 PM   #14
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Re: All things Middle East related

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... and Hilary will continue increasing the hazard.
well considering she was apart of the administration that put us in this position, its highly likely.

Remember, when she was given her first major job in her career as Secretary of State she had 2 major failures in a short time:

Bengahzi where she ignored requests to protect Americans, putting them in harms ways

And

Was negligent in the handling of highly classified information


If this was my organization or another major corporation, her fat ass would be on the streets effectively fired.

Good nuff for government work folks. This is her record in a major leadership position...a major clusterfuck
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Old 05-04-2016, 02:23 PM   #15
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Re: All things Middle East related

you say obama, but you should be saying obama/bush, at the very least. isis is on the decline though, recruiting is down by over 80% over last year, and their money is drying up, leading to a lot of awol soldiers.

...
and hillary is an interventionist, so in all likelyhood, yes, she will meddle in places against good advice. better than trump, but she'll (probably) continue our 16 year tradition of terrible foreign policy decisions.
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