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Debating with the enemy Discuss politics, current events, and other hot button issues here. |
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#1 | |
A Dude
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Newtown Square, PA
Age: 46
Posts: 12,458
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Re: All things Middle East related
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God made certain people to play football. He was one of them. |
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#2 |
Contains football related knowledge
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Second Star On The Right
Age: 62
Posts: 10,401
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Re: All things Middle East related
While I generally don't agree with That Guy on a lot of politics, I am with him on this one.
Boots on the ground? If history has shown us anything, it has demonstrated that putting troops into a place is always easier than withdrawing them. Once Americans die, there had damn well better be a reason for being there and, if there is, we damn well better win. In the Middle East, barring the economic need for oil, there is no reason for young Americans to die. I bought into that theory once. Not again. Who is in those boots? Young Americans fighting ... who? Assad? ISIS? For the rebels? For some of the Rebels but against others? With Turkey but not with the Kurds? And when in this mish mash of religious radicalism, rampant ethnic loyalty, and generally undemocratic forces, we end up siding with folks who - it turns out - also commit atrocities, we inevitably make more enemies. ISIS is bad. Assad is bad. Many of the rebels are bad. Not a lot of folks fighting for "Truth Justice and the American Way." I don't know what the right answer is. I am convinced, however, "boots on the ground" is the wrong answer unless their is a clear, rock-solid, exit strategy. Because war is messy - particularly the war being fought in the ME, I just don't see a scenario that warrants Americans dying in the dessert.
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#3 | |
A Dude
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Newtown Square, PA
Age: 46
Posts: 12,458
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Re: All things Middle East related
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They are either going to be permitted to operate in Iraq and Syria where they control lots of revenue-generating assets, and thus enabled to coordinate attacks throughout Europe, or someone is going to fight them on their turf, disrupting their ability to generate the cash necessary to fund their operations. But either way people are going to die, it's just a matter of how many, on whose side, and where that happens. We are extremely fortunate here in the US that we don't face the same threat to our homeland that Europe does. Belgium demonstrates the severity of Europe's problem. So you could say there's no way we should put American boots on the ground without Europe (and Saudi Arabia and Jordan and Egypt and...) being along for the ride. Except we were the ones who created the mess in the first place, by toppling Saddam and leaving before the power vacuum was adequately filled. So we, the United States of America, are to blame for creating an environment for ISIS to operate and fund its machine. Build a coalition, fine. But we have to go in. ISIS doesn't exist if we never toppled Saddam, and ISIS doesn't kill hundreds of Parisians and 30+ Belgians if not for our extremely serious mistakes. Are these nations our NATO allies or not? We belong there, cleaning up our mess properly. Blame it on Bush if you want, that's appropriate. But nevertheless it's the mess we left. We can't just practice sea gull foreign policy - fly in, sqwauk a lot, shit all over the place, and fly away. We have a responsibility to the world now, like it or not.
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God made certain people to play football. He was one of them. |
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#4 | |
Living Legend
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: VA
Age: 42
Posts: 17,620
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Re: All things Middle East related
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#5 | |
Warpath Hall of Fame
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 35,034
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Re: All things Middle East related
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Now in the Peshmerga and Yadiz controlled areas(large chunk of Northern Iraq), their troops would absolutely welcome us with open arms. They have asked us to come. They have been far and away the most effective group fighting against ISIS...but we will not help them because of an agreement with Turkey. We refuse to even arm them, which is some cowardly-Obama, state department bullshit. We do have 2 firebases right now near Mosel within the Peshmerga controlled area which will serve as artillery with the coming assault on that city. These are being run by several hundred US Marines *only* with top-line artillery pieces...we also have an airstrip built near by. We don't need 30k troops...Im not gonna talk the past because Obama fuck it up already but before we certainly coulda handled fuckin ISIS with 5k troops at the time of the break-out...easily too.
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#6 |
Warpath Hall of Fame
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 35,034
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Re: All things Middle East related
I still have a hard time with folks who don't understand what's going on and who is Isis.
This is the greatest terror organization in the history of the modern world..they are well funded, have an army, are currently at war with the west, hold large swaths of land, are well trained, proven logistical capabilities to strike in multiple countries across the world. Have/used chemical weapons, currently seeking weapons of mass destruction. Their ability to recruit and communicate globally is unprecedented. The nazis tried to hide their war crimes and their crimes against humanity...burned records, hid concentration camps, destroyed camps, etc. ISIS Proudly captures genocide on video and then distributes to everyone. Folks. Think about it. We must understand a couple things...we are at war. We are spending tons of resources on them. And we do actually have some boots on the ground. Two, this is a major problem within the Muslim community. We need to admit this and so do the folks within the religion.
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#7 |
Living Legend
Join Date: Aug 2008
Age: 58
Posts: 21,701
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Re: All things Middle East related
Schneed is right if history could be changed we should have enacted the equivalent of a new Marshall plan after we toppled Saddam, bringing in US power to unite Iraq Saudi Arabia Jordan Egypt and Israel in a Mideast defense pact. Likely internal to the borders we could have strengthened the governments favorable to us, and in a real good case lifted the standard of living enough to move the needle away from extremism. Unfortunately, like in the aftermath of WW1, the world felt war weary and that simple good feelings would bring the peace of universal wisdom and enlightenment to that region.
Now we are in a world where the enemies of the US are in a stronger position. And the death toll to make civil society safe is gonna be a whole lot higher. Sent from my SM-P550 using Tapatalk |
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#8 |
Warpath Hall of Fame
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 35,034
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Re: All things Middle East related
Obama had multiple opportunities to help end the Syrian Civil war. Obama had multiple opportunities to stop the ISIS breakout when they crossed into Iraq. Obama had multiple opportunities to not let ISIS dig in.
ISIS is clearly Obama problem and his willingness not to act. Pathetic to blame Bush. This is from a guy who hated the Bush administration.
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My pronouns: King/Your ruler He Gets Us |
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#9 |
Warpath Hall of Fame
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 35,034
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Re: All things Middle East related
Saudis warn of economic reprisals if Congress passes 9/11 bill - CNNPolitics.com
Well because Saudi Arabia tells the Obama to jump and how high and Obama promptly does it. I mean come on, tell the Saudis to fuck off. They don't threaten us economics...sell the shit. This administration is so effin weak. And the government should release the 28 page classified report becuase 9/11 victims deserve to know what foreign government would sponsor the attack.
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My pronouns: King/Your ruler He Gets Us Last edited by Chico23231; 04-17-2016 at 02:29 PM. |
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#10 |
MVP
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: lancaster,pa
Age: 63
Posts: 10,672
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Re: All things Middle East related
the saudis have been telling our presidents what to do for a long while now.
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#11 |
Living Legend
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: VA
Age: 42
Posts: 17,620
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Re: All things Middle East related
if we strip their countries sovereign immunity, does that mean families of civilians killed by US troops or the innocent people we've tortured can turn around and sue us?
because it seems like that's where that kind of precedent would lead. it's not just the saudis who think this might be a bad idea. |
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#12 |
Warpath Hall of Fame
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 35,034
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Re: All things Middle East related
Clapper: ISIS can stage Europe-style attacks in U.S. - CNN.com
Well ISIS have already have "inspired" 3 attacks. Islamic Terrorists have already committed multiple lone wolf operations here and in Canada. So now, the administration is admitting we are vulnerable to a direct isis attack. That's quite an admission, but really no surprise. Obama and his administration have left the country and the world in a much more unsafe place.
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#13 |
Contains football related knowledge
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Second Star On The Right
Age: 62
Posts: 10,401
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Re: All things Middle East related
... and Hilary will continue increasing the hazard.
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Strap it up, hold onto the ball, and let’s go. |
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#14 |
Warpath Hall of Fame
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 35,034
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Re: All things Middle East related
well considering she was apart of the administration that put us in this position, its highly likely.
Remember, when she was given her first major job in her career as Secretary of State she had 2 major failures in a short time: Bengahzi where she ignored requests to protect Americans, putting them in harms ways And Was negligent in the handling of highly classified information If this was my organization or another major corporation, her fat ass would be on the streets effectively fired. Good nuff for government work folks. This is her record in a major leadership position...a major clusterfuck
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My pronouns: King/Your ruler He Gets Us |
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#15 |
Living Legend
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: VA
Age: 42
Posts: 17,620
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Re: All things Middle East related
you say obama, but you should be saying obama/bush, at the very least. isis is on the decline though, recruiting is down by over 80% over last year, and their money is drying up, leading to a lot of awol soldiers.
... and hillary is an interventionist, so in all likelyhood, yes, she will meddle in places against good advice. better than trump, but she'll (probably) continue our 16 year tradition of terrible foreign policy decisions. |
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