The Too Soon 2021 NFL Draft Thread

[Scalper]

Originally Posted by SCRedskinsFan

Your “pot plant” comment is out of bounds. This individual gave up his right leg playing for your team, and played heroically when pressed into emergency because we literally had no one else to play.

He is paid $20M+ a year for a profession he knowingly chose, including the risks. I would never want anyone to lose a leg playing football, but it is a dangerous game and no one put a gun to Smith's head and forced him to play. He is a shell of his former self in terms of playing skills. No one will ever dispute Smith's character, he is a stellar human being, but he has always been a mediocre QB at best. Assessing extremely high-paid players based on their physical gifts and limitations is not out of bounds, it comes with the territory. Enough of the PC police. Try reading the first amendment. Enough of the censorship in this country. The people I want to have the right to speak the most are those whose views I find the most offensive, because without that freedom you have tyranny. Who made you the omniscient arbitrator of what is in and out of bounds? Move to Russia or China, Comrade.

[SCRedskinsFan]

Originally Posted by Scalper

He is paid $20M+ a year for a profession he knowingly chose, including the risks. I would never want anyone to lose a leg playing football, but it is a dangerous game and no one put a gun to Smith's head and forced him to play. He is a shell of his former self in terms of playing skills. No one will ever dispute Smith's character, he is a stellar human being, but he has always been a mediocre QB at best. Assessing extremely high-paid players based on their physical gifts and limitations is not out of bounds, it comes with the territory. Enough of the PC police. Try reading the first amendment. Enough of the censorship in this country. The people I want to have the right to speak the most are those whose views I find the most offensive, because without that freedom you have tyranny. Who made you the omniscient arbitrator of what is in and out of bounds? Move to Russia or China, Comrade.

OK, enough of this crap. My opinion is that the “potted plant” comment was offensive. Actually I said “out of bounds”. I never said or implied that it was somehow illegal or against any rules, so don’t give me your first amendment lecture. Expressing an opinion is what these boards are all about, and in your short tenure here you have certainly gotten an ample opportunity to express yours.

And speaking of offensive, the last line of your post speaks for itself.

[Scalper]

Originally Posted by AnonEmouse

I'm not suggesting we need a running QB, but we need a mobile one. Unless we can rebuild the OL in one season (and being in mind Scherff might only be here 1 more year max), we need a guy who can extend passing plays, not just takes off running every time. A Mahomes/Wilson type, not Jackson.

OTOH if RR and Turner think they can scheme up protection improvements in the meantime, and ANYONE will be be more mobile than Smith (hell, a pot plant would be more mobile), then maybe Jones is a good answer if he can move around a bit. I'm just conscious of putting a static rookie back there and breaking him a la Burrow.

Running and mobile are synonyms. Your QB spends much time outside the pocket, he gets creamed eventually, period. You need a pocket QB with pocket presence, who has the gift of sensing pressure and eluding it without taking off running, stepping up to get the pass off or throw it away. You don't draft the wrong sort of QB long term because of short term blocking problems. Everyone is enamoured of mobile running QBs, but year in year out the guys winning it and making deep playoff runs are pocket passers.

Wilson only won SB with one of most stacked Ds of all time. Mahomes has been banged up since he started running more. I think he was WAY more injured in SB than he let on. No excuses, Bucs won, but Mahomes mechanics seemed off all game.

Your focus in drafting a QB should be his accuracy, arm strength, and ability to generally throw the ball, not his ability to play RB, period. You can't have your QB taking hits from 250 LBs and 275-300 LB DL. The QB that doesn't get hurt is the one that can go through his progressions fast and has pocket presence, and that does NOT mean the ability to run real fast outside the pocket. RBs get hurt more than most any other position, why would you use your QB, the hardest position in all of sports to fill, as one? Most running QBs have never demonstrated an ability to go through progressions and elude the rush WITHIN the pocket, which is one reason bust rates are sky-high in recent years. You draft a guy who does things in college that don't equate with pro success and then express amazement when your QB can't ever really read a D, go through progressions fast, and get the ball out fast. Jones has a PROVEN ability to do the things that great NFL pocket passers do, but I still don't love his arm strength. Jones is a no brainer versus most of the other prospects everyone rates higher.

Burrow had nothing approaching elite athleticism. He was not worthy of the #1 pick. That being said, sucks anyone gets injured that bad. You need an OC who runs a system that maximizes talent rather than forcing the system he loves. In the final analysis, you have to draft a QB and protect him, but you can't let lack of protection warp the way you evaluate long term prospects of success of a QB. EVERY QB who has won more than one SB in salary cap era is a pocket passer. There is not one exception. Running QBs are a fad, nothing more.

If you refuse to draft a QB who has not flourished for at least two years in a pro style system, and demand that such a QB have natural accuracy, natural pocket presence, and the intelligence to read Ds coming out of school (not learning it later as a projection) bust rates plummet. A HUGE percentage of the highly drafted QB busts are running QBs or system college QBs with NO experience in reading Ds or pro Os. Just because everyone espouses something doesn't make it sensible, and the opposite is usually true. Don't believe the hype about running QBs. One other problem with them is much shorter shelf life. They lose a step and then run out of the pocket, as they age, they get KILLED.

Again, it won't matter. Jones will be gone by the time we pick methinks. Long gone.

[BaltimoreSkins]

Originally Posted by Scalper

Running and mobile are synonyms. Your QB spends much time outside the pocket, he gets creamed eventually, period. You need a pocket QB with pocket presence, who has the gift of sensing pressure and eluding it without taking off running, stepping up to get the pass off or throw it away. You don't draft the wrong sort of QB long term because of short term blocking problems. Everyone is enamoured of mobile running QBs, but year in year out the guys winning it and making deep playoff runs are pocket passers.

Wilson only won SB with one of most stacked Ds of all time. Mahomes has been banged up since he started running more. I think he was WAY more injured in SB than he let on. No excuses, Bucs won, but Mahomes mechanics seemed off all game.

Your focus in drafting a QB should be his accuracy, arm strength, and ability to generally throw the ball, not his ability to play RB, period. You can't have your QB taking hits from 250 LBs and 275-300 LB DL. The QB that doesn't get hurt is the one that can go through his progressions fast and has pocket presence, and that does NOT mean the ability to run real fast outside the pocket. RBs get hurt more than most any other position, why would you use your QB, the hardest position in all of sports to fill, as one? Most running QBs have never demonstrated an ability to go through progressions and elude the rush WITHIN the pocket, which is one reason bust rates are sky-high in recent years. You draft a guy who does things in college that don't equate with pro success and then express amazement when your QB can't ever really read a D, go through progressions fast, and get the ball out fast. Jones has a PROVEN ability to do the things that great NFL pocket passers do, but I still don't love his arm strength. Jones is a no brainer versus most of the other prospects everyone rates higher.

Burrow had nothing approaching elite athleticism. He was not worthy of the #1 pick. That being said, sucks anyone gets injured that bad. You need an OC who runs a system that maximizes talent rather than forcing the system he loves. In the final analysis, you have to draft a QB and protect him, but you can't let lack of protection warp the way you evaluate long term prospects of success of a QB. EVERY QB who has won more than one SB in salary cap era is a pocket passer. There is not one exception. Running QBs are a fad, nothing more.

If you refuse to draft a QB who has not flourished for at least two years in a pro style system, and demand that such a QB have natural accuracy, natural pocket presence, and the intelligence to read Ds coming out of school (not learning it later as a projection) bust rates plummet. A HUGE percentage of the highly drafted QB busts are running QBs or system college QBs with NO experience in reading Ds or pro Os. Just because everyone espouses something doesn't make it sensible, and the opposite is usually true. Don't believe the hype about running QBs. One other problem with them is much shorter shelf life. They lose a step and then run out of the pocket, as they age, they get KILLED.

Again, it won't matter. Jones will be gone by the time we pick methinks. Long gone.

There is such a huge fallacy here with regards to "running quarterbacks"
QBs get injured on designed runs 1 out of every 236 plays. A QB that scrambles gets injured the same rate as a QB that gets sacked once out of every 92 plays. The worst is the knockdown when a QB is taken down while planting and throwing once every 67 plays. That was in 2018. John Varros compiled the data for Sports Info Solutions in 2018 and in 2019 compiled this data: https://twitter.com/VerrosJohn/statu...83721602699271

Furthermore there are degrees of mobility. Brady looks like a rushing QB when compared to Manning. One is far more comfortable with moving the pocket both had significant injuries during their career. Everybody wants a pro ready QB but we shouldn't discount one that can move too.

[Scalper]

Originally Posted by BaltimoreSkins

There is such a huge fallacy here with regards to "running quarterbacks"
QBs get injured on designed runs 1 out of every 236 plays. A QB that scrambles gets injured the same rate as a QB that gets sacked once out of every 92 plays. The worst is the knockdown when a QB is taken down while planting and throwing once every 67 plays. That was in 2018. John Varros compiled the data for Sports Info Solutions in 2018 and in 2019 compiled this data: https://twitter.com/VerrosJohn/statu...83721602699271

Furthermore there are degrees of mobility. Brady looks like a rushing QB when compared to Manning. One is far more comfortable with moving the pocket both had significant injuries during their career. Everybody wants a pro ready QB but we shouldn't discount one that can move too.

I don't use Twitter, just on principle, I don't abet totalitarianism, so can't see that. It is not a fallacy. Show me one running QB who has won multiple SBs in salary cap era? There are many pocket passers with no pocket presence who take tons of bad hits, so the aggregate can be distortive, especially without quantification of specific injury. A sprained pinky is not the same as a blown ACL. The argument that running plays are safer for a QB is ridiculous. Extrapolating your argument, and I would agree getting hit while planted is the worst, it would be safer to just not have the QB ever throw and use him as a RB. This is clearly not the case.

I don't want a franchise QB getting paid $40M a year who is irreplaceable running bootlegs or playing RB and giving LBs and DL free shots at him. It only takes one outlier play to lose your franchise QB. It is needless risk.

Moreover, injury is only part of the picture. The QB that stays in the pocket and finds the open receiver usually moves the offense better long term than the QB that runs. We see time and time again running QBs stunted in development because they use their legs as a crutch and run rather than learn to optimize D reading. It takes 100K+ reps to get great at reading Ds so you can go through 3-5 progressions in under 3 secs.

This isn't brain surgery. Who are the best QBs in the NFL over last 20 years? The QBs that led their teams on deep playoff runs repeatedly. Brady, Rodgers, both Mannings, Brees, etc. Pocket passers. Moreover, longevity is key. You want to draft a franchise QB and have them play 15+ years. Show me a running QB still crushing it in their 30s? Is there an age breakdown on that injury data? Aging running QBs lose a step and get KILLED. I want a QB that from day one is focused on only one thing: becoming a dominant pocket passer. QB who runs through his progressions in 3 secs or less and throws the ball away if nothing there.

And you need a great LT, one who is best as pass blocking rather than run blocking. Williams. LOL. Thanks again Bruce.

[BaltimoreSkins]

Originally Posted by Scalper

I don't use Twitter, just on principle, I don't abet totalitarianism, so can't see that. It is not a fallacy. Show me one running QB who has won multiple SBs in salary cap era? There are many pocket passers with no pocket presence who take tons of bad hits, so the aggregate can be distortive, especially without quantification of specific injury. A sprained pinky is not the same as a blown ACL. The argument that running plays are safer for a QB is ridiculous. Extrapolating your argument, and I would agree getting hit while planted is the worst, it would be safer to just not have the QB ever throw and use him as a RB. This is clearly not the case.

I don't want a franchise QB getting paid $40M a year who is irreplaceable running bootlegs or playing RB and giving LBs and DL free shots at him. It only takes one outlier play to lose your franchise QB. It is needless risk.

Moreover, injury is only part of the picture. The QB that stays in the pocket and finds the open receiver usually moves the offense better long term than the QB that runs. We see time and time again running QBs stunted in development because they use their legs as a crutch and run rather than learn to optimize D reading. It takes 100K+ reps to get great at reading Ds so you can go through 3-5 progressions in under 3 secs.

This isn't brain surgery. Who are the best QBs in the NFL over last 20 years? The QBs that led their teams on deep playoff runs repeatedly. Brady, Rodgers, both Mannings, Brees, etc. Pocket passers. Moreover, longevity is key. You want to draft a franchise QB and have them play 15+ years. Show me a running QB still crushing it in their 30s? Is there an age breakdown on that injury data? Aging running QBs lose a step and get KILLED. I want a QB that from day one is focused on only one thing: becoming a dominant pocket passer. QB who runs through his progressions in 3 secs or less and throws the ball away if nothing there.

And you need a great LT, one who is best as pass blocking rather than run blocking. Williams. LOL. Thanks again Bruce.

Give me your data and we can have a discussion about it. But once again I love how you lump everyone in as either a pocket passer or a running qb with out recognizing a continuum. How can you seriously lump in Rodgers and Manning in the same category? It is absurd.

[skinsfaninok]

Kiper has Mac Jones going #8 in fact he has all 5 going top 10..

I do not see that happening.

[punch it in]

Originally Posted by skinsfaninok

Kiper has Mac Jones going #8 in fact he has all 5 going top 10..



I do not see that happening.

No fucking way. Lol. He is getting too cute. Probably because he is always wrong. I have a gut feeling Jones is going to be there at 19 and we are going to pick him. Then I will hold my breath for a couple years to see if we finally got our guy....again.

[Chief X_Phackter]

Originally Posted by skinsfaninok

Kiper has Mac Jones going #8 in fact he has all 5 going top 10..

I do not see that happening.

That is so crazy...and possible.

[Chief X_Phackter]

Why is that out of bounds? He's just drawing a fairly accurate analogy.

[AnonEmouse]

Try reading some other posts. I applauded AS for coming back and competing, let alone starting.

But he isn't even remotely mobile, especially compared to how he could move pre-injury. Its just a fact, whether he admits it or not, he can't move in the pocket and is therefore a liability. I'd put money on him being gone 1st June.

If I wanted to be insulting I'd have compared him to a boulder. At least a pot plant shows motion in a draft.

[punch it in]

All this extracurricular activity because of a pot plant....Everyone always says alcohol is what starts fights but now I gotta wonder.

[Chief X_Phackter]

People are so easily offended these days, it is absolutely amazing. We have to be becoming the softest society on the planet.

[AnonEmouse]

https://www.nfl.com/news/charley-cas...es-to-steelers

I like the idea of Fields and Jones sliding down to/past #19 (though I'm not sure anyone rates Lance as better than Fields...), but if that were to happen would we seriously overlook 2 potential franchise QB's in favour of a LB? Can't see that happening.

[skinsfaninok]

Originally Posted by AnonEmouse

https://www.nfl.com/news/charley-cas...es-to-steelers

I like the idea of Fields and Jones sliding down to/past #19 (though I'm not sure anyone rates Lance as better than Fields...), but if that were to happen would we seriously overlook 2 potential franchise QB's in favour of a LB? Can't see that happening.

Lance has a ton of hype, some say he's right up there potential wise as Lawrence due to his raw athletic ability.. The thing is, he's raw so some teams may be hesitant to take him.

Fields ain't fallin that far but I hope he does.

Casserly has had some very bad takes in the past few drafts.