Ultimate Building Blocks: NFC East

[SBXVII]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

3. Albert Haynesworth, DT, Washington Redskins: He's the most dominant defensive tackle we've seen in years. He's virtually impossible to block one-on-one. I think he'll make a huge impact on the defense in '09. Enough to get the Skins to the playoffs? Probably not.

Why do "analysts" have such hard time taking a chance on saying the Skins will make the playoffs this year? Is it really that out of the question? They were a borderline playoff contender last year with miserable offense and a D that while played solid, couldn't pressure the QB or generate turnovers.

Now the offense should be improved in year #2 under Zorn, and the D should be able to get after the passer and create some more turnovers.

I dunno, to me it's not crazy to picture the Skins going 10-6 and being a wildcard.

I can't figure it out either. The Eagles have not done very well since their one run to the SB. But for what ever reason every one is predicting them to go to the SB this yr.

Dallas had a couple of good yrs and last yr I didn't see them looking as good as they have in past yrs. To me they look to be on the decline and losing their best weapon on offense that teams had to adjust and account for does not make them better. I'm supprised they were not put at the bottom of the East.

I look at the Giants and I see them slipping but they still made the play offs so they are the team to beat right now.

I look at the Skins and see a team that was not that bad on defense but needed a good pass rusher...we got two and one will command a double team. We picked up a decent CB and perhaps one decent LB. I guess the media knowing we sucked on offense last yr is simply saying it was due to Campbell and the team tried to get rid of him but couldn't so they will be the same. All the while they are failing to see that our problems were several fold......injured O-line, New system, Only one decent WR threat. We've upgraded the O-line ( they don't all have to be 24 y/o's) by adding depth/ talent. Our two WR's have been working their butts off during the off season to learn the offense to help the team, and they are healthy. and due to everyone knowing the offense better and play calls the team is looking more decisive, and faster including Campbell. I know we were in last place last yr with an 8-8 season but we also were learning a new offensive scheme. The Eagles did not fair much better so what was their problem?

I'm confortable in saying as long as people stay healthy (as with any team) we can make it to the playoffs. I like our chances better then the Eagles and Dallas.

[Ruhskins]

Originally Posted by SBXVII

I can't figure it out either. The Eagles have not done very well since their one run to the SB. But for what ever reason every one is predicting them to go to the SB this yr.

Dallas had a couple of good yrs and last yr I didn't see them looking as good as they have in past yrs. To me they look to be on the decline and losing their best weapon on offense that teams had to adjust and account for does not make them better. I'm supprised they were not put at the bottom of the East.

I look at the Giants and I see them slipping but they still made the play offs so they are the team to beat right now.

I look at the Skins and see a team that was not that bad on defense but needed a good pass rusher...we got two and one will command a double team. We picked up a decent CB and perhaps one decent LB. I guess the media knowing we sucked on offense last yr is simply saying it was due to Campbell and the team tried to get rid of him but couldn't so they will be the same. All the while they are failing to see that our problems were several fold......injured O-line, New system, Only one decent WR threat. We've upgraded the O-line ( they don't all have to be 24 y/o's) by adding depth/ talent. Our two WR's have been working their butts off during the off season to learn the offense to help the team, and they are healthy. and due to everyone knowing the offense better and play calls the team is looking more decisive, and faster including Campbell. I know we were in last place last yr with an 8-8 season but we also were learning a new offensive scheme. The Eagles did not fair much better so what was their problem?

I'm confortable in saying as long as people stay healthy (as with any team) we can make it to the playoffs. I like our chances better then the Eagles and Dallas.

I don't know why analysts want to hand the SB trophy to the Eagles or the Giants so quickly. Nothing against those two teams, but once again the NFC East is pretty even. The success of all 4 teams will depend on some key issues...

Eagles: Their success will depend on McNabb's health and attitude (32 yrs old and just got a raise), Westrbook's health, and whether DeSean Jackson or Maclin develop into the wideouts that the Eagles have been sorely missed.

Giants: I think the Giants are trying to convince themselves that they don't need a player like Plax. Had they traded for Boldin or even Braylon Edwards, I'd be handing them the division too. Otherwise, I think this is still a big question mark, especially since they appear to miss Plax in the playoffs.

Cowboys: The Cowboys season rests squarely on the shoulders of Roy Williams. If Williams doesn't perform, Witten will become Romo's only target, and well he'll be well covered by defenses. I still think that one of JJ's biggest mistake was to bring a softy coach to run the locker room. If they had brought someone with some balls, they'd still have TO.

Redskins: I feel that a mild improvement on the offense should get us over the playoff hump. However, last season I made the argument that our defense wasn't elite, well I think this year our defense has the potential of becoming an elite unit, allowing them to carry the team. Ideally both situations happen, but realistically only one will.

So there, why can't an analyst say that?

[SBXVII]

Originally Posted by Ruhskins

I don't know why analysts want to hand the SB trophy to the Eagles or the Giants so quickly. Nothing against those two teams, but once again the NFC East is pretty even. The success of all 4 teams will depend on some key issues...

Eagles: Their success will depend on McNabb's health and attitude (32 yrs old and just got a raise), Westrbook's health, and whether DeSean Jackson or Maclin develop into the wideouts that the Eagles have been sorely missed.

Giants: I think the Giants are trying to convince themselves that they don't need a player like Plax. Had they traded for Boldin or even Braylon Edwards, I'd be handing them the division too. Otherwise, I think this is still a big question mark, especially since they appear to miss Plax in the playoffs.

Cowboys: The Cowboys season rests squarely on the shoulders of Roy Williams. If Williams doesn't perform, Witten will become Romo's only target, and well he'll be well covered by defenses. I still think that one of JJ's biggest mistake was to bring a softy coach to run the locker room. If they had brought someone with some balls, they'd still have TO.

Redskins: I feel that a mild improvement on the offense should get us over the playoff hump. However, last season I made the argument that our defense wasn't elite, well I think this year our defense has the potential of becoming an elite unit, allowing them to carry the team. Ideally both situations happen, but realistically only one will.

So there, why can't an analyst say that?

...because that does not get your name in the papers, internet or T.V. Picking a team and standing by them does. Then later they can say "See I told you prior to the season."

Your assessment was fair I believe. I just don't think the Eagles will have enough WR threats. I know they picked up some one this draft but as with our two WR's there will be a learning curve. Heck D.Jackson even though he sometimes shined he had a learning curve. I just don't think they will have enough weapons. Then look at their CB's. Not that great.

Giants lost two WR's right. Everyone else is a no name other then Moss. Their two big threats are gone. Buress and Amani Toomer..

Dallas had the best WR in the division and let him go and could have had the two best in the division to catapult the team to the play offs. They were stupid. and I agree with you in regards to their HC. He's an awsome co-ordinator but a horrible HC. I see the Cowboys being the bottom feeders this yr.

[Nflnick11]

Originally Posted by D'BOYZ

OK I'm Sorry but I thought at least here some people were going to say that it was outrageous that someone put a rookie who hasn't had a Snap in the top ten no matter how good of a prospect he might be. How many 1st round pick with so much high hopes turn out to be bust and to call a guy a top 10 without even playing it's absurd.

Orakpo might be a great player in the future but putting him ahead of Osi, trent Cole even Jay Ratliff as defensive guys go it's absurd.

Also No WR in your top 10 to make a team that's also ridiculous Santana Moss should made the list because he's the best WR in our division, plain and simple. DeSean has potential but e has only play one season.

Third to the guy that said Ware is Overrated I just can't stop laughing he had a sack for 10 consecutive games that's an NFL record (tied) that's consistency it's not like he had 6 sacks against a team then he didn't had any for 2 or 3 games he had 4 against the Giants (3 in 1 game), 2 against you guys. Come on 20 sacks and you say the guy s overrated when he's game planned by every team, he's double or even triple team every play.

It's like me saying Haynesworth it's overrated it's just plain absurd... The guy is the best Tackle in the game today is he worth 41mil Guaranteed I don't know but is he the best sure like Ware is the best OLB in the game.... and to the guy that said Merriman he'0s just a pressure player Ware is a complete OLB he covers and plays the run great and still puts pressure also he doesn't need steroids to be good.

Now Corners Even I as a Dallas fan can agree that Samuel's is the best in the division as one said he finds the ball and play the best in the playoffs he single handed beat Payton Manning twice in the AFC championship with 3 int games. Now I know you're Redskins fans and you support your players but to say C.Rogers is better than Newman again just absurd. C.Rogers finally had one good season last year after some really bad ones at one point in his career he was bench he's improving yes, is he the 3rd best I don't know maybe Brown is third in my book. But Cmon Newman had 1 year that he didn't allow a TD the whole season and the next year only allowed 1. He's the #1 CB in coverage but #5 or #6 in Int.

That's my 2 cents

Never thought I'd agree with a Dallas fan

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Most overrated really? More so than Asante Samuel or DeMarcus Ware??

Seriously though, you think he's the most overrated in the entire league? Not sure I agree there.

I do. The knock on him is he doesn't work at his craft and it shows up in his numbers. He's had one good year since he's been in the pro's. He almost reminds me of Michael Westbrook. This year it's put up or shut up for Williams.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by D'BOYZ

Third to the guy that said Ware is Overrated I just can't stop laughing he had a sack for 10 consecutive games that's an NFL record (tied) that's consistency it's not like he had 6 sacks against a team then he didn't had any for 2 or 3 games he had 4 against the Giants (3 in 1 game), 2 against you guys. Come on 20 sacks and you say the guy s overrated when he's game planned by every team, he's double or even triple team every play.

Gets run to the sidelines by tight ends against the run, can't cover a soul if asked to, plays upright and at times, just downright soft, c'mon, keep going. He's overrated because of all the reasons you just named.

Mosley said he's worth Haynesworth money. Go on. Give it to him, I dare ya.

He's either the best or second best defensive player the Cowboys, but that team hasn't exactly been the hallmark of defense over the last three years. On our defense, he'd be our third or fourth best defensive player. But he also wouldn't be overrated because of that ugly star on the side of his helmet.

[GMScud]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Gets run to the sidelines by tight ends against the run, can't cover a soul if asked to, plays upright and at times, just downright soft, c'mon, keep going. He's overrated because of all the reasons you just named.

Mosley said he's worth Haynesworth money. Go on. Give it to him, I dare ya.

He's either the best or second best defensive player the Cowboys, but that team hasn't exactly been the hallmark of defense over the last three years. On our defense, he'd be our third or fourth best defensive player. But he also wouldn't be overrated because of that ugly star on the side of his helmet.

Agreed. Ware is great at simply getting to the QB, but I'd take Peppers or Freeney over him for sure.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

GTripp, I think what you do with the football stats and using metrics is really cool. But at some point you have to reconcile what you're doing with common sense.

Saying Samuel as the best in the division = an embarrassment is a statement that doesn't just contradict common sense, it flies in the face of it.

If you're going to make such a statement, you need to post some of your kick ass metric stuff and summarize it in such a way that you might convince us why you're right. Otherwise these outlandish statements -with no support behind them - convince us of little other than your credibility is questionable.

You've got to show you can convert the stats into common sense discussion or nobody's going to buy it.

If I had all my materials at hand I think I could give you a much stronger answer. Unfortunately, I'm on the road right now, and do not. But I reject that common sense dictates that Samuel is the best CB in the division. The NFL has no mainstream way to judge a CB outside of he-said, she-said.

Anyway, Mosley says:

4. Asante Samuel, CB, Philadelphia Eagles: He's hands down the best cornerback in the division, although Terence Newman's close when healthy. The ball always seems to find Samuel, and that's the best compliment you can pay a defensive back.

This of course, is every bit as unsubstantiated as anything I said. There is not one reason given here to believe Samuel is deserving of being one of 10 NFC East building blocks.

Now, for his career, Samuel's coverage numbers (metrically) have been remarkably average. A lot better than Ellis Hobbs, but still, you can throw on him. Most of his value appears to be tied up in his 10 INT - pro bowl year in 2006. At that point, his value was at an all time high. I think, there was a lot of reasons to doubt Samuel then, (i.e. he came largely out of nowhere) but he was young, and promising, and had enjoyed a lot of postseason success as a beneficiary of a consistent playoff team.

So, since then, he's averaged 5 INTs a year, 6 in 07, and 4 in 08. A healthy rate, to be sure. But take Newman for example. The guy is basically 4 INTs a year, every year. So, what's the benefit of having a less established player in Samuel, over a top ten pick (both Newman and Rogers)? I know, for a fact that Carlos Rogers' coverage numbers are better than Samuels', and I think Newman has better numbers as well, though I'd like to look it up to be sure.

Nothing Asante Samuel accomplished this past season would have made me say, "Wow, that guy is the best corner in the NFC East." Admittedly, Rogers had much more of a chance to prove himself to me. But I got to watch two games of Newman, and two games of Samuel, and Newman has better instincts, he's a stronger cover corner, and his INT production is roughly identical, save an outliers year from Asante. So, I'm taking Newman, given what I know.

Until the argument for Samuel is made, I don't have much to respond to. I can make a solid, contextual argument for either Rogers, Newman, or Webster, but if people are going to assert that Samuel is definitely the best in the division, I'd sure like to hear why.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

Yeah and if Ware is overrated with 20 sacks, I sure hope Orakpo can be just as overrated.

I think, when I said overrated, a lot of people read "what! He doesn't think Ware is good?"

Well, Mosley wrote this:

He's the most dynamic defender in the league right now.

The. Most. Dynamic. Defender.

That's painful to read. He's got a bunch of holes in his game. I don't think he has a hole in terms of rushing the passer. I think he takes a few plays off on the pass rush, but again, that's not uncommon for someone at that position. It does suggest, however, that he's not all that different from any other well-intentioned pass rusher.

And 20 sacks, well, that's a pretty impressive total from a pretty darned good pass rusher. So if he's going to "take his game to the next level", that means what, 23 sacks?

Okay, I call the under! Who wants to bet me on that one? D'BOYZ? $100 right now to put your money where your mouth is. I'm good for it.

[53Fan]

GTripp...I don't know what to say, other than, I love where you're coming from.

[D'BOYZ]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Gets run to the sidelines by tight ends against the run, can't cover a soul if asked to, plays upright and at times, just downright soft, c'mon, keep going. He's overrated because of all the reasons you just named.

Mosley said he's worth Haynesworth money. Go on. Give it to him, I dare ya.

He's either the best or second best defensive player the Cowboys, but that team hasn't exactly been the hallmark of defense over the last three years. On our defense, he'd be our third or fourth best defensive player. But he also wouldn't be overrated because of that ugly star on the side of his helmet.

hahaha what a joke Gtripp I like you bro but really you need to become a fan of another sport.... really. he's knowned as one of the best if not the best OLB agaisnt the run, he's consider a complete player becasue he's one of the best passrushers outthere and can play teh run adn the pass.....

he's a guy that isn't loud just make plays... but hey if you rather have a big mouth in your team be my guest.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by D'BOYZ

hahaha what a joke Gtripp I like you bro but really you need to become a fan of another sport.... really. he's knowned as one of the best if not the best OLB agaisnt the run, he's consider a complete player becasue he's one of the best passrushers outthere and can play teh run adn the pass.....

he's a guy that isn't loud just make plays... but hey if you rather have a big mouth in your team be my guest.

If that big mouth is Terrell Suggs, then yes, I would much prefer the mouth.

To call Ware a franchise building block, or a unit building block, is to suggest the Cowboys have failed to put enough talent around him to cash in his sack production. So which one is it: are you overrating DeMarcus Ware, or am I underrating the greatest defensive player of our time, and the Cowboys simply can't figure out what a good defensive player looks like to put around him?

[D'BOYZ]

Originally Posted by GMScud

Agreed. Ware is great at simply getting to the QB, but I'd take Peppers or Freeney over him for sure.

Dude Peppers and Freeney are pressure players they aren't grerat agaisnt the run and they'e DE in the 4-3 they NEVER go cover TE or WR so is stupid

and in their best feture which is getting to the QB this are the stats.

Ware 4 Season in the NFL sacks 53.5 age 26
Freeny 7 Season in the NFL First 4 season 51 sacks last 4 seasons 30.5 age 29

Peppers 7 Season in the NFL First 4 season 40.5 sacks last 4 season 40.5 Sacks age 29

So you're telling me that you would rather take 2 DE that even in their prime couldn't put the numbers Ware has and are 3 years older with injuries and obvious have worse numbers in the past 4 years... please don't run for GM

[D'BOYZ]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

If that big mouth is Terrell Suggs, then yes, I would much prefer the mouth.

To call Ware a franchise building block, or a unit building block, is to suggest the Cowboys have failed to put enough talent around him to cash in his sack production. So which one is it: are you overrating DeMarcus Ware, or am I underrating the greatest defensive player of our time, and the Cowboys simply can't figure out what a good defensive player looks like to put around him?

look it's neither Dallas has a good building Block surroundig Ware heck Dallas was leader in sacks last year and the 8th best defense they needed improvemnet in the secondary we all new that. we needed to get ridd of Roy Williams and we did and the CB's we drafted last year are pretty good.

Still the biggest problem with the defense is over confidence and lack of consistency they play great for a few games then they believe they're the best defense out there and get humiliated by Baltimore and the Eagles... What I believe it lacks is leadership and a cold head... not talent.

Now Sluggs please he's in the best or second best defense in the league you can't argue that and still he can't post Ware type of numbers. 6 years in the league 40 sacks in his first 4 years and 30.5 in the past 4 going backwards he's only 26 he's been in the league 2 more years than Ware and has half a sack less. please, in one of the best defenses in the league and they only ask him to put pressure.... He's WAAAY Overated he had 5 in 2007 playing every game that's less than 1 sack every 3 games.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by D'BOYZ

Dude Peppers and Freeney are pressure players they aren't grerat agaisnt the run and they'e DE in the 4-3 they NEVER go cover TE or WR so is stupid

and in their best feture which is getting to the QB this are the stats.

Ware 4 Season in the NFL sacks 53.5 age 26
Freeny 7 Season in the NFL First 4 season 51 sacks last 4 seasons 30.5 age 29

Peppers 7 Season in the NFL First 4 season 40.5 sacks last 4 season 40.5 Sacks age 29

So you're telling me that you would rather take 2 DE that even in their prime couldn't put the numbers Ware has and are 3 years older with injuries and obvious have worse numbers in the past 4 years... please don't run for GM

Speaking of pure sacking ability, Ware has an advantage that the other two don't have in that he can be lined up against weaker tackles as a LB, and oftentimes, come totally unblocked.

Now, I don't speak for GMScud when I say this, but if the argument is "building blocks", I'm taking the 26 year old with Ware's pass rushing ability. That's easy. Of course, the fact that I can find better players than Ware in the NFL makes that sort of irrelevant. Suggs is 26, for example. Mario Williams is 25. Merriman is 26. Gaines Adams and Chris Long are younger guys who have the potential to reach that level. Orakpo is a green-ass rookie, but same deal.

Of course the thread is about NFC Building blocks. You need to take Haynesworth. And you need to take Tuck. Those are the best defensive lineman in the division. And honestly, how many pass rushers are going to be on this team of ten? Sure, you could use DeMarcus Ware as a super-pass rusher, but then you don't get to pick a receiver, or a runningback, or a corner, or somebody who makes a more balanced team. So it's perfectly defensable to leave Ware off the list without disrespecting his abilities.

It's not as defensable to be ignorant to the fact that the guy has noticable weaknesses.