Vince Young - Offensive Rookie of the Year

[Defensewins]

Originally Posted by jsarno

Leinart:
56.6% comp, 2542 yards passing, 11 pass tds, 12 ints. (11 full games)
Young:
51.7% comp, 2199 yards passing, 12 pass tds, 13 ints. (14 full games)

Leinart beats Young by 70+ passing yards a game, about .15 passing td's per game, and about 5% better comp %. Young got the Offensive ROY, and Leinart wasn't even an after thought...so who is overrated again??????

I'm not saying Leinart is a stud, but if you're going to call someone overrated, get your stats in order. If you call Leinart overrated, you must call Young overrated.

I'm sorry I have to jump in here.
jsarno - the stats you carefully picked are just passing stats. In the NFL, QB's are allowed to run - one of Young's finest moment was a 39-yard TD run in overtime to beat Houston. As much as you do not like it, it is true Qb's can run.
Vince ran the ball 83 times for 553 yards and 7 TD's. He averaged 6.7 yards a carry. Had a grand total of 19 TD's as compared to Leinarts 13 total TD's and Bush's 8.
You might be of the school of QB's should only be drop back passers and that is the only way to rate them. But there is so much more than passing, like leadership, reading defenses, calling audibles and making the decision to take off and RUN THE BALL.
Young took over a 0-3 team that was being lead by a veteran superbowl QB Kerry Collins. Vince Young came in at a desperate time for a losing team at the most important postion QB and turned the team around. Lead them to 8 wins. Nuff said.

[MTK]

I don't get the VY hate. He had good rookie season, better than anyone expected. He's fun to watch and he won games as a rookie. Pick apart his stats all you want, there's a lot more to his story than his numbers.

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by TAFKAS

But I think Crat's argument is that Young did more with less.

And that's why Vince Young won hands down, he did more with less. Stack the stats as high as you want, no one had the impact on their team Vince Young had on his team.

I'll go a step further, remove LT and Brees from the equation for a minute, you could make a helluva argument for Young as MVP this year.

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by itvnetop

Instead of using red herring arguments ("if we had 4 vince youngs, we would win 12 games"), give some logical reasons why you think VY will fail. His throwing motion can definitely be improved, his passing percentage could be higher, etc.

Well, I have on many occasions. I don't remember all I posted on this thread, but there was another thread that said "Vince Young will be the greatest in a couple years" (or something close to that). I posted a lot of contradictory stats on that thread, and many pursuasive arguments.

If there are no such instances of one player making a difference, why do some teams actually play better when a switch is made at QB? I bet Tony Romo didn't have anything to do with giving his team a spark this season right? Me being an SC alum, there's no way you can tell me that Texas would have beaten SC in the Rose Bowl without VY least year... in fact, UT wouldn't have even made a BCS bowl last year without VY. That just shoots down your entire argument that one player can make a three win difference. Don't they also say that a steady kicker can make a two win difference in a season? It is a team effort (like you say), but one player can will that team effort (as has been proven time and time again). Fact: The Titans (as a team) do not go on a 6 game win streak with Billy Volek [edit: make that Kerry Collins] at the helm.

No, that's opinion. Just becuase the team played better under Young, doesn't mean it would not have happened under Volek or Collins. If a coach makes a midseason speech that encourages and energizes the team, does that coach single handedly win the rest of the season for the team? No. It's a team effort and the team has to decide to play well together or not.
I think you are thinking I am saying that Young had nothing to do with that run of wins...I'm not. Young was very much a shot in the arm for the Titans, and got them to play at a higher level. However, that alone does not warrent the rookie of the year award.

How are you so sure that you are right? I mean, I'm sure of some things too- but that doesn't mean there's not a small chance of others being right too... Are you truly saying that VY has no shot at being a great QB in this league? Obviously, he won the ROY for a reason- people that watch football chose him over Colston, MJD and Bush.

I could be wrong, but I doubt it. The only way I could be wrong is if Vince realizes this is a passing league. When he works day in and day out on passing the ball and working on mechanics. McNabb is a prime example. McNabbs first season he passed for 49.1% in 99. It wasn't until 04, his 6th season, that he finally got with the program. His comp% went to an all time high of 64% and had more than 500 yards passing more than his previous career high. Plus went from 16 tds to 31 tds passing in a single season. His rushing numbers were basically cut in half. No coincidence, that was the year they went 13-3 and lost by only 3 in the super bowl.
McNabb was the kind that wanted to get better and took that negative and turned it into positive. I see Vince Young as the Micheal Vick kind that gets upset about people saying he can't pass, but is not willing to listen. I could be wrong. I hope I am, cause Vince can be one heck of a QB if he learns to throw. Vick will be nothing until he realizes that as well. The more people praise a kid gets even though his flaws are overwhelmingly glaring, the more he feels he needs to stick with what he's doing. What Vince did in college won't work in the NFL. Sure you can win 8-10 games with it with the right cast, but it will NEVER translate into a super bowl win.

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by Defensewins

I'm sorry I have to jump in here.
jsarno - the stats you carefully picked are just passing stats. In the NFL, QB's are allowed to run - one of Young's finest moment was a 39-yard TD run in overtime to beat Houston. As much as you do not like it, it is true Qb's can run.
Vince ran the ball 83 times for 553 yards and 7 TD's. He averaged 6.7 yards a carry. Had a grand total of 19 TD's as compared to Leinarts 13 total TD's and Bush's 8.
You might be of the school of QB's should only be drop back passers and that is the only way to rate them. But there is so much more than passing, like leadership, reading defenses, calling audibles and making the decision to take off and RUN THE BALL.
Young took over a 0-3 team that was being lead by a veteran superbowl QB Kerry Collins. Vince Young came in at a desperate time for a losing team at the most important postion QB and turned the team around. Lead them to 8 wins. Nuff said.

Again, my comment was to point out the flawed argument that one is "overrated" and the other isn't.
I do not beleive that a QB needs to be a pocket passer. In fact I am thrilled to death to see Campbell back there. I think he's got it all, just needs more practice. I would honestly take Campbell over Young at this point.
I think that Steve Young was the best QB the NFL has ever seen due to his ability to scramble. So it's not that at all. I just know you can't win without a QB that can throw. Vince, like Vick, only makes things happen with their legs, when they figure out it's a passing league, that is when they will be dangerous..and I will be the first in line to congratulate them on their hard work to overcome thier flaws. (just like McNabb)

[jsarno]

By the way, if it's all about wins, then Vince helped his team acheive 4 more wins than in 05...Bush helped his team win 7 more games. Almost double. AND Bush is still playing while Vince is not, AND Bush helped to rebuild a storm damaged city.

[itvnetop]

Originally Posted by jsarno

By the way, if it's all about wins, then Vince helped his team acheive 4 more wins than in 05...Bush helped his team win 7 more games. Almost double. AND Bush is still playing while Vince is not, AND Bush helped to rebuild a storm damaged city.

Trust me, I'm the biggest Reggie Bush fan there is... but i'm also not so much of an SC homer to believe that Young was way more valuable to his team's success than Bush was to his. Bush also had a second running back in Deuce McAllister, an All pro QB in Brees, a pretty good line (led by Jammal Brown), and a sick wideout corps of Colston, Henderson and Horn. You take Bush away from that team and I believe NO still gets into the playoffs this season, probably not as one of the top seeds though. The Titans have Travis Henry, Drew Bennett and Bo Scaife. Without Young, the Titans are not even fighting for a wildcard.

You have sound arguments re: Young's shortcomings... but ROY doesn't go to the best QB who has the best pure passing abilities. It goes to the best rookie, regardless of their techniques and tendencies. We can hypothesize all day about how the Titans would have fared without Young, but results speak for themselves- and Young did more with less.

[12thMan]

I'm not sure exactly what this argument is all about but not one single rookie won games in the variety of ways that Vince Young did this year in clutch moments. Not one. Not Bush, not Hester, not Colston, not Leinert.

Also, Vince is the unquestioned leader and the face of the Titans. We probably could split hairs all day whether Bush or Colston or Leinert is more deserving, but the bottom line is Vince Young pulled his team within one win of going to the playoffs.

[Defensewins]

Originally Posted by itvnetop

Trust me, I'm the biggest Reggie Bush fan there is... but i'm also not so much of an SC homer to believe that Young was way more valuable to his team's success than Bush was to his. Bush also had a second running back in Deuce McAllister, an All pro QB in Brees, a pretty good line (led by Jammal Brown), and a sick wideout corps of Colston, Henderson and Horn. You take Bush away from that team and I believe NO still gets into the playoffs this season, probably not as one of the top seeds though. The Titans have Travis Henry, Drew Bennett and Bo Scaife. Without Young, the Titans are not even fighting for a wildcard.

You have sound arguments re: Young's shortcomings... but ROY doesn't go to the best QB who has the best pure passing abilities. It goes to the best rookie, regardless of their techniques and tendencies. We can hypothesize all day about how the Titans would have fared without Young, but results speak for themselves- and Young did more with less.

YES! You got it right, New Orleans has a Probowl QB, Deuce McAllister, and a great set of WR's. I can't even name Tennessee's WR's or OL.

[GhettoDogAllStars]

Originally Posted by Defensewins

YES! You got it right, New Orleans has a Probowl QB, Deuce McAllister, and a great set of WR's. I can't even name Tennessee's WR's or OL.

WR Brandon Jones. Watch out for him next year.

[jsarno]

OK guys, answer me this,
How can Tennessee have the 12th ranked offense in AFC, and the 27th in the entire NFL but Vince meant so much to that offense? It doesn't add up.

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by GhettoDogAllStars

WR Brandon Jones. Watch out for him next year.

That kid has a ton of talent.

[GhettoDogAllStars]

Originally Posted by jsarno

OK guys, answer me this,
How can Tennessee have the 12th ranked offense in AFC, and the 27th in the entire NFL but Vince meant so much to that offense? It doesn't add up.

I would say that their offensive success has to be attributed to their rushing success. However, they didn't achieve success rushing the ball until Young was under center. I guess the opposing defenses had to stop stacking the line after Young became the starter. Why? I guess because he could do more in the passing game than Collins, Volek, et al.

[dmek25]

Originally Posted by jsarno

OK guys, answer me this,
How can Tennessee have the 12th ranked offense in AFC, and the 27th in the entire NFL but Vince meant so much to that offense? It doesn't add up.

does anyone usually remember where teams are ranked statistically once the post season starts? winning is all that matters

[jsarno]

Originally Posted by dmek25

does anyone usually remember where teams are ranked statistically once the post season starts? winning is all that matters

What kind of argument is that? You dismiss the point that the offense of Tennessee sucks, and then you bring up the post season, which you must not have noticed, Tennessee is not a party of.

Winning is NOT all that matters when talking about an individual accomplishment...something I proved when I pointed out that Bush helped his team to 7 more wins than last year, and Young only 4.