2012 Presidential Election (free for all edition)

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

Please don't deny Obama's philosophy is "spread the wealth around", those are his own words. The only reason taxes haven't skyrocketed under Obama is the GOP House wins in 2010.

- 21 tax hikes in ObamaCare hitting taxpayers with over $ 675B.

- and Obama and the Dems are smart, most tax increases go into effect after 2012. Taxes | U.S. Congressman Paul Ryan

- another good read for those who are concerned about what happens in 2013 and beyond....based on Obama's own budget and CBO estimates.

President Obama: The Biggest Government Spender In World History - Forbes

SS3, if that's his philosophy as you say, what policies has he enacted that support that?

Healthcare reform is spreading the wealth around?

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by 12thMan

This chart uses the same formula I used to to cite private sector growth under Obama, 4.5 million jobs. In fact, if we're calculating net job growth, Bush may have ended his presidency slightly under water.

It's an indisputable fact that George W. Bush had the worse jobs creation record of any modern president.

You are factually incorrect. The chart is quite simple, Jobs at End of Term vs. Jobs at Start of Term. Bush added 3M. Using the same formula, currently Obama has lost 1.37M.


This is the methodology you have been citing on the 4.5M job added - By going back 27 months, Obama starts counting at the low point of employment for the private sector in February 2010 and tracks how far it has come. But counting farther back, since the end of the recession in June 2009, private-sector job gains have been much more modest, 3.1 million. That's a more meaningful measurement to economists.
Overall, the economy has lost 1.37 million jobs — 784,000 in the private sector — since Obama was inaugurated.
Read more: FACT CHECK: Where Obama, Romney missed mark | Fox News

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by 12thMan

SS3, if that's his philosophy as you say, what policies has he enacted that support that?

Healthcare reform is spreading the wealth around?

When you have the Fed implementing billions (will be over $ 1T) in taxes to cover a program that only benefits a small percentage of Americans, that is "speading the wealth around".

Here are a few of his policies:
- Consider the case of Americans who built up value in a home their entire lives and never made more than a modest annual income. They will be “rich” according to Obama in the one year they sell that home – and subject to a hefty tax hike with the new health care surtax on capital gains taking the tax above the exempt amount from 15 percent now to 23.8 percent next year.

- That hefty increase in capital gains and the even bigger, near tripling of the dividend tax from 15 percent to 43.3 will trigger a massive stock market sell-off that will wallop the retirement accounts of people of all income levels. Economist Don Luskin has estimated that allowing these provisions to expire as Obama today proposed will cause a 30 percent collapse in the stock market – bad news for every American hoping to retire or already living out of a retirement account.

- Bloomberg News recently reported: “President Barack Obama’s plan to raise tax rates for the top 2 percent of U.S. households would mean higher taxes on 53 percent of business income reported on individual returns, according to the Joint Committee on Taxation.”
Such a huge tax hike on small businesses – who comprise the overwhelmingly majority of upper-income individual tax filers – will negatively impact not just business owners but every worker on the margin of being hired or laid off.

- Obama didn’t mention it Monday, but one of the “tax hikes on the rich” he has favored, and presumably would include in his plan, is to allowing the death tax to jump from its current 35 percent rate above $5 million to a confiscatory 55 percent rate on everything above $1 million -- this will put a lot of family businesses and farms out of business.


All that being said, you're OK with the Fed expanding by taking more money from individuals/private sector and putting it under gov't control? You've got WAAAYYYY more faith in the Fed (no matter who sits in the WH) than I do, or historical fact shows is prudent.

[12thMan]

Was just listening to Mitt Romney streaming on C*SPAN.

He said I'll repeal Obamacare, then literally five seconds later said he'll reform healthcare because "he knows a little a bit about fixing healthcare". ???? I bet the hypocrisy went completely over the audiences heads.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by saden1

You losing $100 is a forgone conclusion, in fact, I am so confident that I am willing to bet in 12thMan's place and put another 100 in the pot.

Brown isn't winning MA and neither is McCaskill in MO. Nelson is an old dog with cat like lives, Tester is done for and Allen Macaca isn't going to win VA... ultimately Dems need 3 seats to maintain control which really doesn't mean much these days as Republicans have indiscriminately utilized the filibuster to instituting gridlock the last 3.5 years.

Bottom line, your money is going to get spent with or without a Federal Budget and you need to get these stupid Republican talking points out of your head and assume the fetal position or just grab your ankles, it will all go a lot smoother that way.

If 12th wants to step up, he needs to put his own skin-in-the-game. If you're up for doubling down, I'm good for $ 200 total. I'll await your response.

As far as fetal positions and such, that will never happen, but I'll keep your comments in mind on Nov. 7th...after Romney has won.

[NC_Skins]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

..but I'll keep your comments in mind on Nov. 7th...after Romney has won.

...and absolutely nothing changes one bit. If anything, it gets worse.

[firstdown]

Originally Posted by 12thMan

This chart uses the same formula I used to to cite private sector growth under Obama, 4.5 million jobs. In fact, if we're calculating net job growth, Bush may have ended his presidency slightly under water.

It's an indisputable fact that George W. Bush had the worse jobs creation record of any modern president. It's also a fact we were bleeding 750K jobs a month before Obama was sworn in and passed the stimulus. Mitt Romney wants to essentially go back and double down on his failed policies.

Look, we can play this game of statistics all day. President Obama will get reelected and the economy will continue it's trajectory of recovery -- with or without Republicans. Things are headed in the right direction.

Obama is not running against Bush and sorry Obam is still in the red as far a net job growth not in the plus as you think. BTW how many jobs dis the stimulas create?

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

When you have the Fed implementing billions (will be over $ 1T) in taxes to cover a program that only benefits a small percentage of Americans, that is "speading the wealth around".

Here are a few of his policies:
- Consider the case of Americans who built up value in a home their entire lives and never made more than a modest annual income. They will be “rich” according to Obama in the one year they sell that home – and subject to a hefty tax hike with the new health care surtax on capital gains taking the tax above the exempt amount from 15 percent now to 23.8 percent next year.

- That hefty increase in capital gains and the even bigger, near tripling of the dividend tax from 15 percent to 43.3 will trigger a massive stock market sell-off that will wallop the retirement accounts of people of all income levels. Economist Don Luskin has estimated that allowing these provisions to expire as Obama today proposed will cause a 30 percent collapse in the stock market – bad news for every American hoping to retire or already living out of a retirement account.

- Bloomberg News recently reported: “President Barack Obama’s plan to raise tax rates for the top 2 percent of U.S. households would mean higher taxes on 53 percent of business income reported on individual returns, according to the Joint Committee on Taxation.”
Such a huge tax hike on small businesses – who comprise the overwhelmingly majority of upper-income individual tax filers – will negatively impact not just business owners but every worker on the margin of being hired or laid off.

- Obama didn’t mention it Monday, but one of the “tax hikes on the rich” he has favored, and presumably would include in his plan, is to allowing the death tax to jump from its current 35 percent rate above $5 million to a confiscatory 55 percent rate on everything above $1 million -- this will put a lot of family businesses and farms out of business.


All that being said, you're OK with the Fed expanding by taking more money from individuals/private sector and putting it under gov't control? You've got WAAAYYYY more faith in the Fed (no matter who sits in the WH) than I do, or historical fact shows is prudent.

So basically we're going to swap links. Here's my link debunking pretty much everything you just said. particularly interesting are the steps the administration has taken to help owners facing foreclosure and refinance their homes. (though they've fallen short)

Read it though. Interesting.

Fact Check: Crossroads Ad Hits Obama for ‘Broken Promises’ - ABC News

It's weird that you would blame President Obama for monetary action taken by the Fed has taken to keep the economy going.

[NC_Skins]

GOP Insider: How Religion Destroyed My Party | Alternet

GOP Insider: How Religion Destroyed My Party

In the new book, "The Party Is Over," veteran Republican Mike Lofgren writes about the rise of politicized religious fundamentalism and how the GOP devolved into anti-intellectual nuts.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by NC_Skins

...and absolutely nothing changes one bit. If anything, it gets worse.

I'll be $ 200 richer.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by 12thMan

So basically we're going to swap links. Here's my link debunking pretty much everything you just said. particularly interesting are the steps the administration has taken to help owners facing foreclosure and refinance their homes. (though they've fallen short)

Read it though. Interesting.

Fact Check: Crossroads Ad Hits Obama for ‘Broken Promises’ - ABC News

It's weird that you would blame President Obama for monetary action taken by the Fed has taken to keep the economy going.

It was a good read but doesn't debunk anything I stated:

- On homes, your link doesn't address what is fact....ObamaCare includes a new health care surtax on capital gains taking the tax above the exempt amount from 15 percent now to 23.8 percent next year.

- the link does nothing to refute the fact of the Dividend Tax increase from 15 to 43.3%

- it also does not refute the fact that Obama's plan to raise tax rates for the top 2 percent of U.S. households would mean higher taxes on 53 percent of business income reported on individual returns, according to the Joint Committee on Taxation.”

- your link does nothing to refute the Death Tax increase.

[NC_Skins]

Study: Romney tax plan would result in cuts for rich, higher burden for others - The Washington Post






Crazy how you'll have the sheep lining up just to vote this guy in thinking he'll serve their best interest.


The biggest con job of all has been convincing the conservative poor/middle class people that giving tax breaks to the rich will somehow trickle down to them. I like to refer to these people as "inconvenienced millionaires". The conservative dream, to work hard, bust your ass so you will reach the top and bask in the wealth like they do. Biggest myth ever perpetrated in American history.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by NC_Skins

Study: Romney tax plan would result in cuts for rich, higher burden for others - The Washington Post






Crazy how you'll have the sheep lining up just to vote this guy in thinking he'll serve their best interest.


The biggest con job of all has been convincing the conservative poor/middle class people that giving tax breaks to the rich will somehow trickle down to them. I like to refer to these people as "inconvenienced millionaires". The conservative dream, to work hard, bust your ass so you will reach the top and bask in the wealth like they do. Biggest myth ever perpetrated in American history.

Crazy how sheep don't look into details of links they post. Embarrassing.

- By the way, even the Tax Policy Center admits that "we do not score Governor Romney's plan directly as certain components of his plan are not specified in sufficient detail." But no matter, the study plows ahead to analyze features of the Romney plan that aren't even in it.

- Campaign officials noted that one of the three authors, Adam Looney of Brookings, served as a senior economist on the Obama Council of Economic Advisers. The other two authors are Samuel Brown and William Gale, both of whom are affiliated with Brookings and the Tax Policy Center.

Here's an analysis of the study you cite: Review & Outlook: The Romney Hood Fairy Tale - WSJ.com

another: Flat-out lies on Romney's tax plan | WashingtonExaminer.com

Here are FACTS about Romney's proposal....not left-wing hack job crap:

Had the Tax Policy Center been more meticulous, it would have noticed the simple description of the Romney tax proposal on his website. After describing the damage that high top marginal rates do to small-business hiring, the site states that Romney's plan would:
• Make a permanent, across-the-board 20 percent cut in marginal rates
• Maintain current tax rates on interest, dividends and capital gains
• Eliminate taxes for taxpayers with adjusted gross income below $200,000 on interest, dividends and capital gains
• Eliminate the death tax
• Repeal the Alternative Minimum Tax
Most fifth-graders could read this plan and see that it never once calls for raising taxes on anyone. Nor does the Romney tax plan call for giving tax cuts to high-income Americans before there are tax cuts for middle- and low-income Americans, as alleged by the TPC.
In fact, low-and middle-income earners would get tax cuts that upper-income Americans will not enjoy, such as a zero tax rate on income from dividends and long-term capital gains.

[NC_Skins]

More facts you say?

FactCheck.org : Romney’s Impossible Tax Promise


You were saying? Unbiased you say?

But he has steadfastly refused to say which tax preferences would be cut or reduced. He has pointed to the revenue-neutral proposals for rate-cutting put forth by the deficit commission as evidence that what he proposes is possible in theory, but those proposals pay for the cuts largely by taxing capital gains at the higher rates that apply to ordinary income, a measure Romney has specifically ruled out.

So Romney has failed to produce evidence that what he promises is possible. And we judge that the weight of evidence and expert opinion is clear — it’s not possible.

But Romney’s claim that he can somehow slash individual income tax rates without losing federal revenue or favoring the wealthy remains at best unproven, and in our judgment, based on available evidence, impossible.

[NC_Skins]