All things Middle East related

[Hog1]

TG, to compare these people to the Russians is.......absurd.
BTW, why do you throw down with the Nuke thing so often? You seem to be the only one talking about it. If these people are going to be anything but our enemies, they may have to stop chanting Death to our civilization for some period of time, right? Maybe the major holidays they could get the "Death Chanting" union to take a day off...Oh well, food for thought!
BTW, this dude has some real concerns

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/08/us...wall.html?_r=0
Mr. Schumer, the third-ranking Democrat in the Senate and the likely Democratic leader beginning in 2017, said on Thursday night that he opposed the deal, citing concerns about the inspection regime, provisions to reimpose sanctions if Iran cheats, and Tehran’s freedom after a decade to possibly pursue a nuclear bomb. In quick succession, two other prominent Jewish Democrats, Representative Eliot L. Engel of New York, the ranking Democrat on the Foreign Affairs Committee, and Mr. Sherman announced their opposition.
I do to.......
BTW, in spite of the generally shit condition of this country, we are still the most powerful country on this planet. We don't need to bully anybody around to much, but we also have no need to get Prison...F..d by a backwards pissass country that has but a vague concept of toilet paper.... and no use for it.
PS, 4 American hostages STILL in Iranian prisons...today!

[That Guy]

whatever, you hate the deal, but if you think you could get a better one, well, that's probably a fairy tale. again, the sanctions are in place to get this deal done, if it falls through, a bunch of countries will back out of the sanctions, so they'll fall apart in all likelyhood. we'll also being going back on a deal we've already agreed to (in principle), so the chances of iran thinking we'll be able to follow through to any deal in the future becomes very unlikely.

the nuke thing is just asking what you expect the eventual outcome to be. if we can't reason with them (engagement) what's the other option? put our head in the sand and hope things work out? invade? if they're our enemies and will always be our enemies, then you should probably get rid of them right? or do you just leave them to do their evil things unchecked and hope for the best? that's what i'm getting at, if you never want to engage them diplomatically, then where exactly does that line of thinking go?

and hog, russia has edward snowden, should we cut off all deals, ties and economic arrangements over that? cause you keep harping on that for some reason like they're the only country with american prisoners or that the issues are tied together. I'd like them free, Obama would too, but that's a work in progress right now.

chico, please cite these deals that iran has backed out of, because I don't remember the US ever making a deal or treaty with them since the revolution (unless you count iran-contra). if you're going to throw things out there as facts, please make sure they're actually true (and again, if i'm missing something, just let me know).

[Chico23231]

We are here because of multiple violations of the npt by Iran , they have backout agreements and have tried to illegally obtain materials to militarize their nuclear program.

Also as the largest state sponser of terrorism they are violation of the Geneva convention, international law, etc.

I'm not trying to be an ahole, but it's pretty clear we are at this point because of a systematic attempt of Iran to possess and build nuclear weapons in violation of npt.

[That Guy]

Iran - International | International treaties adherence

you aren't party to a treaty unless you agree to be a party to it.

you're right tat they have violated the npt article 3 by failing to declare their enrichment in 2003, they agreed to the npt in 1968 (pre revolution). we (well, the american gov) believes they broke article 4 (but the proof is circumstantial).

there's no guarantees this works, but i do believe it's worth a shot, if it fails, the sanctions come back with full international support (if we kill the deal now, only partial sanctions would remain in all likelyhood), and if we fish for a "better deal" we likely get no deal (and again, only partial sanctions).

[That Guy]

....

[Hog1]

Originally Posted by That Guy

Iran - International | International treaties adherence

you aren't party to a treaty unless you agree to be a party to it.

you're right tat they have violated the npt article 3 by failing to declare their enrichment in 2003, they agreed to the npt in 1968 (pre revolution). we (well, the american gov) believes they broke article 4 (but the proof is circumstantial).

there's no guarantees this works, but i do believe it's worth a shot, if it fails, the sanctions come back with full international support (if we kill the deal now, only partial sanctions would remain in all likelyhood), and if we fish for a "better deal" we likely get no deal (and again, only partial sanctions).

Just for a moment, does any of this really make....common sense to you?
How does it go?
"Make Damn sure boys, we ain't buildin' no Nukes cause we done said we.....woon't, and Allah knows you can trust the good ol' PLM's. and don't forget to bomb those F..n Pig Israelis' to dust on Sunday...Americans on Tuesday"
Allahu Akbar....In the meantime, strap a few bombs to some children down to the Walmart....
And BTW, these same Sanctions that Obama has maintained IS the reason we need this agreement (they are the only reason Iran is at the table at all) are far stronger now than if we have to reinforce them later as they are NOT retroactive.
Soooo, IF they do not work now, how will they work later (and they will be weaker)?

[Giantone]

This was good ,


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PyotYM3LPQ

[That Guy]

Originally Posted by Hog1

Just for a moment, does any of this really make....common sense to you?
How does it go?
"Make Damn sure boys, we ain't buildin' no Nukes cause we done said we.....woon't, and Allah knows you can trust the good ol' PLM's. and don't forget to bomb those F..n Pig Israelis' to dust on Sunday...Americans on Tuesday"
Allahu Akbar....In the meantime, strap a few bombs to some children down to the Walmart....
And BTW, these same Sanctions that Obama has maintained IS the reason we need this agreement (they are the only reason Iran is at the table at all) are far stronger now than if we have to reinforce them later as they are NOT retroactive.
Soooo, IF they do not work now, how will they work later (and they will be weaker)?

I have no idea what you're trying to say here. if you're asking about why the sanctions would become weaker if we do nothing, it's because these countries only agreed to them (at the cost of billions) to get a deal done.

meanwhile, a ton of generals have weighed in on the deal, and think it's a good idea.

[Hog1]

Menendez second Senate Democrat to oppose Iran deal - CNNPolitics.com
(CNN)A high-ranking Democratic senator delivered another blow to President Barack Obama's legacy-making Iran nuclear deal on Tuesday.

"I have looked into my own soul and my devotion to principle may once again lead me to an unpopular course, but if Iran is to acquire a nuclear bomb, it will not have my name on it," Menendez said. "It is for these reasons that I will vote to disapprove the agreement and, if called upon, would vote to override a veto."

Naturally, you already know Chuck Schumer has kicked Obama's deal to the curb....right?

[Hog1]

Wow...even Ben and Jerry are trying to save.......this
Not to mention threatening their own party and trying to convince yo to do the same?

Dear fellow MoveOn member,

This is Ben and Jerry—yes, of Ben & Jerry's Ice Cream. We're writing today to ask for your help to stop another disastrous, unnecessary, Middle East war.

Right now we have an amazing opportunity to defend the Obama Administration's historic diplomatic deal to prevent Iran from getting nuclear weapons. And yet, some of the same warmongers who led us into Iraq want to sabotage this deal and put us on a path to war with Iran—and some Democrats are thinking about going along with them!

That's not the leadership we need. We need more voices like Sen. Bernie Sanders, who has declared, "The test of a great nation is not how many wars it can engage in, it is how it can resolve international conflicts in a peaceful manner."1
That's why we're asking you to join us and sign a petition that sends a strong message to all Democrats: If you undermine the Obama Administration's historic diplomatic agreement with Iran, we'll withhold all campaign donations from your campaigns and party committees in the next election.

If the Senate overrides President's Obama's Iran deal, it risks putting us on a path toward war. But despite that—and despite thousands of phone calls, petitions, and meetings—we're still FOUR VOTES SHORT of what we need to stop the Senate from doing just that, according to media reports.2

So it's time to start talking in terms that politicians understand: money.
It's that simple. Be the party of peace and diplomacy—or don't expect any support when you're running on your record of saber-rattling and fear mongering.

Will you click here to sign the petition with us—and join MoveOn's donor strike?

We're businesspeople—and we know that if we sold an inferior product, people would stop buying it.

Well, Democrats who side with war hawks instead of diplomacy and peace are selling an inferior product. And we're not buying it anymore.

These Democrats just need to learn from recent history. They were bulldozed into giving President George W. Bush the power to invade Iraq. Look how that turned out!

And now wimps like Senator Chuck Schumer—who expects to be the next Senate Democratic Leader—are coming out against the deal.3 He was wrong on Iraq. Now, he's wrong on Iran.

And Senator Robert Menendez today came out against the deal—in spite of the fact that he was elected in 2006 based on his vote against the Iraq War.4 He was right on Iraq, but now he's on the wrong side of history.

That's not the leadership we need. We need more voices like Sen. Bernie Sanders, who believe that "war should be the last resort."5

So far, more than 25,000 MoveOn members have signed the petition and made the pledge. We're just two more—and we hope you'll join us.

Click here to sign the petition. Join MoveOn's donor strike now and let's stop a war before it begins.

As businesspeople, we understand the "bottom line." And here's what it is: Democratic wimps and chicken-hawks need to come to their senses—or be cut off. It's that simple.

Sincerely,
–Ben & Jerry

[Hog1]

News from The Associated Press

VIENNA (AP) -- Iran will be allowed to use its own inspectors to investigate a site it has been accused of using to develop nuclear arms, operating under a secret agreement with the U.N. agency that normally carries out such work, according to a document seen by The Associated Press.





The Parchin agreement was worked out between the IAEA and Iran. The United States and the five other world powers were not party to it but were briefed by the IAEA and endorsed it as part of the larger package.

On Wednesday, White House National Security Council spokesman Ned Price said the Obama administration was "confident in the agency's technical plans for investigating the possible military dimensions of Iran's former program. ... The IAEA has separately developed the most robust inspection regime ever peacefully negotiated."

All IAEA member countries must give the agency some insight into their nuclear programs. Some are required to do no more than give a yearly accounting of the nuclear material they possess. But nations- like Iran - suspected of possible proliferation are under greater scrutiny that can include stringent inspections.

The agreement in question diverges from normal procedures by allowing Tehran to employ its own experts and equipment in the search for evidence of activities it has consistently denied - trying to develop nuclear weapons.

Olli Heinonen, who was in charge of the Iran probe as deputy IAEA director general from 2005 to 2010, said he could think of no similar concession with any other country.

The White House has repeatedly denied claims of a secret side deal favorable to Tehran. IAEA chief Yukiya Amano told Republican senators last week that he was obligated to keep the document confidential.

Iran has refused access to Parchin for years and has denied any interest in - or work on - nuclear weapons. Based on U.S., Israeli and other intelligence and its own research, the IAEA suspects that the Islamic Republic may have experimented with high-explosive detonators for nuclear arms.

The IAEA has cited evidence, based on satellite images, of possible attempts to sanitize the site since the alleged work stopped more than a decade ago.


As I read through this......I truly could not believe my eyes. WTF kind of incompetent moron could conceivably agree to this? This is precisely why Trump has repeatedly maintained Obama's......complete ineptitude at the bargaining table.
So we are going to allow the PLM's to police themselves?
We should just go ahead and Nuke ourselves as we have been.....handed over the the enemy...Holy Shit
BTW this is not the only "secret Agreement" apparently. It makes one all atwitter with anticipation just to wait and see.....

[CRedskinsRule]

What could go wrong for us with this good news:

Iran, Russia reach agreement on delivery of S-300 missile systems - UPI.com

...
The S-300 is "one of the most advanced air defense systems in the world," Brig.-Gen. (res.) Asaf Agmon, a former senior Israel Air Force officer told The Jerusalem Post.

The S-300, says the brigadier general, would make a potential strike against Iran's nuclear facilities even more difficult.

"This system will be a challenge for an air force to overcome. Its arrival is a significant change in our region," Agmon said.

In April, President Barack Obama downplayed the significance of the purchase. "I'm frankly surprised that [the ban on S-300 deliveries to Iran] held this long, given that they were prohibited by sanctions from selling these defensive weapons."
...

I'm still trying to understand Pres. Obama's quote. He didn't think they would keep a ban in place because they were prohibited by sanctions, but hey, now that sanctions are gone, who needs the ban anyway?!?! WTF

Shouldn't we at least express disappointment that Russia didn't decide to keep the ban in place even though the sanctions are gone. And that adding that level and amount of air defense missiles only serves to hurt the regional balance?

[Hog1]

Well....we need the ban because the "sanctions" won't keep Iran from developing Nukes......
BUT if they violate the agreement, we will "reinforce" the sanctions(that did not work)...
Let's see...re-implement sanctions that "would not work", but will now work?
AND they are not retroactive...soooooo any deals that were put in place will still be in effect???
WTF??? Try and get your head around the logic of that

[That Guy]

Originally Posted by Hog1

Well....we need the ban because the "sanctions" won't keep Iran from developing Nukes......
BUT if they violate the agreement, we will "reinforce" the sanctions(that did not work)...
Let's see...re-implement sanctions that "would not work", but will now work?
AND they are not retroactive...soooooo any deals that were put in place will still be in effect???
WTF??? Try and get your head around the logic of that

i'm not going to waste my time, you're either being purposely dense or trolling, but if you have a better idea, please share it. you keep repeating yourself, it is not helping or advancing the conversation, and you're arguing emotionally in incomplete/incoherent thoughts (or at least poorly articulated ones).

you're welcome to your opinion (of course) but if you want to convince anyone of anything, you're going to have to try a bit harder.

[Hog1]

Trolling? ......Hardly
Actually the response you quoted was meant as an explanation to CRedskins
You keep saying/.....What is Your Plan? This may come as a shock. I do not, am not paid to, expected to, or qualified to develop that plan......

I do know when my car is running bad even though I cannot fix it-have a mechanic!
I do know my roof is leaking even though I can't fix it-have a roofer
AND, I DO know when someones pissin' down my back and telling me it's raining.
The ridiculous agreements in this travesty are many....but the worst (Are you f..n kidding me) is putting the Iranians in charge of their own inspections WTF
***Do you not find it interesting that Obama failed to mention that? Probably just slipped his mind
That's right, the fox is in charge of the hen house. Is it any wonder that Trump says we get F...d by everybody in negotiations. Most specifically our CIC Barak Hussein O'bama. Wow what a coup Barry......
BTW I noticed you did not want to talk about the Iranians ability to choose their own inspectors. How's that work?
Death to all American's guy calls Death to all Israel guy to go over and check out the Nukes they are not building, not see anything and report back to the idiot American's. "Sorry Barry...didn't see anything bad here. You can trust us right. If you could not we would not be inspecting our own shit, right?
Take your head out of the sand
News from The Associated Press

AND just as an aside, what other....."deals" have been cut that are being kept from the American people??