Sportsline.com/Judge giving us no love

[MTK]

So Gibbs has disgust and distain for Ramsey?

Meanwhile he's repeatedly said, since very early in the offseason, that Patrick is his starter.

Interesting.

I guess Gibbs is just blowing smoke up our asses.

Like Schneed10 said, Gibbs has always had 2 starting quality QBs on his rosters, Gibbs hasn't changed his tune at all in that regard. So why are people spinning it as he somehow hates Ramsey?

Ridiculous.

[TheMalcolmConnection]

Very true. Brunell was SUPPOSED to be the second quality quarterback. I'd be afraid to have had Hasselbeck leading us if a starter was injured.

[Daseal]

So Gibbs has disgust and distain for Ramsey?

Meanwhile he's repeatedly said, since very early in the offseason, that Patrick is his starter.

Interesting.

I guess Gibbs is just blowing smoke up our asses.

Like Schneed10 said, Gibbs has always had 2 starting quality QBs on his rosters, Gibbs hasn't changed his tune at all in that regard. So why are people spinning it as he somehow hates Ramsey?

Ridiculous.

I think Gibbs' true feelings about Ramsey will come out if he struggles like Brunell. Does he get the 8 week grace period or a two week one. Hopefully we won't find out either way!

Smoot has been a quality CB his entire career. Imagine that, putting lots of pressure on the QB and forcing them to make bad throws made Smoot look better. That's the same for every defense. However, he was making big plays when he didn't have any time. Also, could it be, that Smoot simply got better skill wise? He's still fairly young in the league and learning. Smoot was a great Redskin and because the Redskins didn't want to give him near the money MN would, I can understand him leaving. Same with Pierce - when you go that many years with damn near league minimum I understand going for more money. It's not like they had huge contracts they wanted to redo. Before I hear that crap that the Redskins offer was almost the same as MNs. MNs was front loaded to where he'd actually see some of the salary, along with a slightly higher SB than the skins offered. Meaning he sees a lot more of that.

Why do we bash players that we consistantly stick up for when they leave, especially when they just leave on normal terms. It's the new NFL. This isn't like Gibbs first era where you can stockpile talent and have them wait. Or give players what they want. It's the salary cap -- and we all know the game wouldn't be as exciting without it.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by Daseal

I think Gibbs' true feelings about Ramsey will come out if he struggles like Brunell. Does he get the 8 week grace period or a two week one. Hopefully we won't find out either way!

I can't see Gibbs keeping Ramsey on that short of a leash. 2 weeks isn't a fair shot for anyone.

He has always been very loyal to his starting QB, almost to a fault... as we saw last year.

Ramsey will get a very fair shot, I have no doubt.

If Gibbs really didn't like Ramsey, why would he keep him around and make him the starter? If anyone can make sense of that please let me know.

He could have easily said there will be an open competition for the job in camp to let Brunell back into the running. But he didn't, so what does that say for how he feels about Ramsey? It tells me he thinks he's the best guy for the job right now.

The Campbell pick shows me Gibbs has one eye on the future. There's no guarantee we'll be able to fit Ramsey under our cap especially if he has a big year and wants a big payday. Or what if he simply wants to play elsewhere no matter what the team offers him?

I guess it's just easier to take the view that Gibbs somehow hates Ramsey and just has it in for him, so that's why he took Campbell. But if you step back and look at the big picture, I think it's easy to see that Gibbs is following the same MO he always has, he likes quality depth at QB. Simple as that.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by Daseal

Smoot has been a quality CB his entire career. Imagine that, putting lots of pressure on the QB and forcing them to make bad throws made Smoot look better. That's the same for every defense. However, he was making big plays when he didn't have any time. Also, could it be, that Smoot simply got better skill wise? He's still fairly young in the league and learning. Smoot was a great Redskin and because the Redskins didn't want to give him near the money MN would, I can understand him leaving. Same with Pierce - when you go that many years with damn near league minimum I understand going for more money. It's not like they had huge contracts they wanted to redo. Before I hear that crap that the Redskins offer was almost the same as MNs. MNs was front loaded to where he'd actually see some of the salary, along with a slightly higher SB than the skins offered. Meaning he sees a lot more of that.

Why do we bash players that we consistantly stick up for when they leave, especially when they just leave on normal terms. It's the new NFL. This isn't like Gibbs first era where you can stockpile talent and have them wait. Or give players what they want. It's the salary cap -- and we all know the game wouldn't be as exciting without it.

I am with you when you say Smoot was good and he had a lot of skill. I don't think Gregg Williams was the only reason Smoot was so good last year. If anything, Smoot and Springs allowed Williams to run the defense he wanted to. Without good corners, Williams can't operate his defense the way he wants. He is a great mind, but he does need some tools to work with, and Smoot & Springs were the most important tools in his toolbox last year.

That said, I honestly don't see much of a dropoff from Smoot to Walt Harris. I've been through this argument before, but just to reiterate, Walt was a former first round pick. He was a starter for many years. The only reason he wasn't a starter recently was because he busted up his knee and we got him for cheap. Now his knee is totally healthy as he proved last year, and he is quite capable of covering some top receivers. I don't think the drop from Smoot to Harris is that significant.

I am concerned about Rogers though, because you need more than two good CBs. While I'm totally confident in Springs and Harris, I'd feel better if Rogers were healthy enough to get a full training camp under his belt so he can fit into the nickel role. I like Garnell Wilds, he did nicely against Randy Moss last year. But honestly, it's a leap of faith to assume he can handle a nickel role on a consistent basis. Of course, Antonio Pierce made that leap last year, so I won't rule anything out. But I'd just feel better with Rogers in better health.

[illdefined]

Hindsight just hasn't been kind to my deep worship of Joe Gibbs. To me, the biggest factor in our weak season last year was his apparent worship of Mark Brunell. What does Gibbs think he sees, and why does he always put obstacles in front of Ramsey?

[MTK]

What obstacles?

Ramsey is the unquestioned starter going into camp.

What more needs to be said?

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

I am with you when you say Smoot was good and he had a lot of skill. I don't think Gregg Williams was the only reason Smoot was so good last year. If anything, Smoot and Springs allowed Williams to run the defense he wanted to. Without good corners, Williams can't operate his defense the way he wants. He is a great mind, but he does need some tools to work with, and Smoot & Springs were the most important tools in his toolbox last year.

That said, I honestly don't see much of a dropoff from Smoot to Walt Harris. I've been through this argument before, but just to reiterate, Walt was a former first round pick. He was a starter for many years. The only reason he wasn't a starter recently was because he busted up his knee and we got him for cheap. Now his knee is totally healthy as he proved last year, and he is quite capable of covering some top receivers. I don't think the drop from Smoot to Harris is that significant.

I am concerned about Rogers though, because you need more than two good CBs. While I'm totally confident in Springs and Harris, I'd feel better if Rogers were healthy enough to get a full training camp under his belt so he can fit into the nickel role. I like Garnell Wilds, he did nicely against Randy Moss last year. But honestly, it's a leap of faith to assume he can handle a nickel role on a consistent basis. Of course, Antonio Pierce made that leap last year, so I won't rule anything out. But I'd just feel better with Rogers in better health.

Nice post, as usual.

Illdefined, as far as putting obstacles in front of Ramsey. It's possible that he felt he was doing Ramsey a favor by not throwing him out there to the wolves while Gibbs got adjusted to the new NFL. I think maybe he felt he'd rather have Brunell out there on the field early on if for no other reason than Brunell would have a better handle on things going on on the field.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by TAFKAS

Nice post, as usual.

Illdefined, as far as putting obstacles in front of Ramsey. It's possible that he felt he was doing Ramsey a favor by not throwing him out there to the wolves while Gibbs got adjusted to the new NFL. I think maybe he felt he'd rather have Brunell out there on the field early on if for no other reason than Brunell would have a better handle on things going on on the field.

Good point. And call me crazy, but I think good old Joe meant what he said last year going into training camp; the QB position was an open competition. Both Ramsey and Brunell looked brutal in the preseason last year, but Brunell looked a little less brutal, so he played.

Ramsey was able to learn the offense in practice while Brunell stunk up the joint last year, and Ramsey came in and showed he was solid.

I think that's all Gibbs needed to see. So Matty's right, when he says Ramsey is the starter, he means it, because he saw him perform admirably in his starts last year (take out the relief performance against the Giants, and Ramsey would have had a 85 QB rating). Campbell was picked for developmental purposes only; his selection was not an indictment of Ramsey's abilities. Old Joe is just getting himself a solid backup because he knows he needs to clear Brunell's bloated salary off the books as soon as it's beneficial under the cap regulations.

[Schneed10]

But that's not to say Campbell will be a career backup. There may come a day when we can't afford to keep Patrick. Or maybe Campbell will prove he deserves to start down the line. But for now, Ramsey is the guy, and Gibbs means it.

[illdefined]

I can maybe understand not wanting to put Ramsey on the line as Gibbs adjusted to the new NFL, but that didn't justify all the money Brunell got, or, way more importantly, all the chances Gibbs kept giving Brunell after it was plain to see he was costing us every game.

Ramsey isn't exactly a rookie with no starts, I think it was a general consensus that Ramsey could have been put in earlier in the season and won some more games. Gibbs bet the farm on Brunell and lost.

While Ramsey is finally getting his chance from the beginning, Gibbs already has made another big gesture with somebody to eventually replace him in this year's draft. I know it's been said ad nauseum, but most agree we had way more pressing (defensive) needs. The pattern of Gibb's QB decisions just can't inspire too much confidence in the boy, that's all i'm saying.

[illdefined]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

Campbell was picked for developmental purposes only; his selection was not an indictment of Ramsey's abilities. Old Joe is just getting himself a solid backup because he knows he needs to clear Brunell's bloated salary off the books as soon as it's beneficial under the cap regulations.

I hope that take is right; Hasslebeck seemed like a solid backup though and not taking the chance to shore up a depeleted defense for a future backup QB doesn't seem very pragmatic. I'm sure Ramsey and maybe even coach Williams was a bit surprised.

[BrudLee]

Originally Posted by illdefined

I hope that take is right; Hasslebeck seemed like a solid backup though and not taking the chance to shore up a depeleted defense for a future backup QB doesn't seem very pragmatic. I'm sure Ramsey and maybe even coach Williams was a bit surprised.

I don't know that it's entirely to acquire a "solid backup". If Ramsey falters this season, there isn't a QB on the roster to run the team in 2006. Brunell will have taken his own life (maybe - it could happen), and bringing in a free agent to start will put us in the position of teaching on the fly - just like last year. This way, Coach Gibbs gets either (a) a credible backup relatively cheaply - bottom of the first round money isn't that much, or (b) a groomed "rookie" with a year of studying the playbook and practicing with the pros.

[illdefined]

Originally Posted by BrudLee

I don't know that it's entirely to acquire a "solid backup". If Ramsey falters this season, there isn't a QB on the roster to run the team in 2006. Brunell will have taken his own life (maybe - it could happen), and bringing in a free agent to start will put us in the position of teaching on the fly - just like last year. This way, Coach Gibbs gets either (a) a credible backup relatively cheaply - bottom of the first round money isn't that much, or (b) a groomed "rookie" with a year of studying the playbook and practicing with the pros.

that makes sense, and sorry i missed the discussion when it happened, but what was wrong with Hasslebeck, who'd been here through all of it?

[offiss]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

I just don't agree with this at all.

When Gibbs had Joe Theismann in hand, he acquired Jay Schroeder. When he had Jay Schroeder in hand, he acquired Doug Williams. When he had Doug Williams in hand, he acquired Mark Rypien.

Gibbs has always felt the need to have two quality quarterbacks on the roster. He tried to do that last year by bringing Brunell in to join Ramsey. If anything, the Campbell draft pick is an indictment of Mark Brunell; I think Gibbs now realizes that Brunell is a bum (despite what he says publicly).

I think Gibbs just saw something special in Campbell and decided to go get him. Gibbs likes to have two good QBs, and he's just going to play the best one. Simple as that.

Your missing the point, and the point is none of those players were drafted higher than the 3rd rd, they were projects that Beathard took a chance on that they could be developed, a far cry from what we gave up to get Campbell, you also can't compare Gibbs first tenure to today's NFL we now have a salary cap to contend with, you do not give up what we gave up for a first rd QB to make him a project, period!

Basically if Gibbs had any confidence in Ramsey there is no way we take Campbell where we did, what is the point? To have 2 bonified starters on our roster to watch Campbell just sit and eat up our salary cap? Tell me what's the plan for Campbell if Gibbs believes in Ramsey? I would like to know the thinking behind that one? As I said from day 1 the Campbell pick was just plain stupid no matter how you look at it.

If Gibbs believes in Ramsey than all he should have been looking for is a #2 backup to groom, instead we now have neither, Campbell is 3 season's away, and Brunell another Gibbs move well we all saw how that panned out.

My question is this, what happens if Ramsey goes down this season? Does anyone think Campbell can step in? Don't make me laugh at that one, so I guess we are 1 hit away from Brunell and a high 1st rd draft pick next year, oh wait we don't have one, WONDERFUL!