In Defense of Vinny Cerrato

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

Originally Posted by sportscurmudgeon

smootsmack:

I suspect that the first time Vinny tells Danny Boy to get his own coffee or light his own cigar, Vinnie will be outta here in a flash. If Danny Boy ever stops short walking down a hallway, Cerrato will wind up with his head up Danny Boy's ass.



Ramseyfan:

Let's look at your list OBJECTIVELY for just a moment. When I say OBJECTIVELY, I mean let's look at what has happened with these acquisitions you asert have been so astute and not what we think will happen with them sometime in the future or what we imagine they might have done with just a break or two in the past. Look at the on-field performance:


Coles: Good season last year - except for one thing. He did not get in the end zone a whole lot. I suspect he is playing hurt more than the Skins have let on this year and so his value this year has been mediocre at best. Skins are paying a LOT of money for not a lot of production on the field.

Thomas: Solid performer. Not nearly the best OG in the NFC East but not the worst either. Definitely the best interior OL the Skins have. Good signing.

Portis: Cost the team a ton in terms of players and draft picks and salary. He needs to have about three monster years to make it worthwhile. He is having a very good season so far, but the jury is still out as to whether or not he was worth it. Looks good so far...

Cartwright: Lots of hustle; not a lot of talent and certainly not any on-field production to speak of. The next blitzing linebacker that he blocks will be the first one. The best thing you can say about him is that he does not cost them much in terms of cap room. If he were to cost them $1M in cap room, he'd have been gone in the second week of training camp. A special teamer at best.

Betts: Another guy who does not cost a lot. Hampered by recurring injuries. A question mark at best.

Griffin: A really worthwhile addition who has played above what his previous perfromances would have indicated. Assuming his current injury is nothing serious, a good signing.

Washington: The best acquisition they made in the last two years - bar none.

Springs: Costs a lot of cap room down the road so I'm not sure he's worth it. But after getting rid of Bailey in order to acquire Portis, they had to get a seasoned corner for that side of the field. They probably overpaid for Springs because the Portis deal left them over-the-barrel. But overpaying is nothing new to this FO.

Taylor: Lots of physical talent but a mental meathead. Be prepared to see him make some spectacular hits in the next few years and be prepared to revel in them because he will also give up lots of big plays and TDs. He's a headhunter and not a fundamentally sound safety. And I'm becoming convinced that he's not going to learn much more than he knows now...

Clark: A good value for the team because he does not cost a lot. But don't kid yourself that this is the reincarnation of Ronnie Lott.


I notice you neglected to put Philip Daniels on your list. Daniels has been an underchiever this year. I also notice you neglected to have Dave Fiore on your list. Unfortunately, injuries intervened to make him unable to perform, but that was not a great team addition. I see that Professor Morton is not ou your list either. His contributions on the field for the past year and a half would fit in a thimble. You also neglected to mention John Hall who was a good addition who has unfortunately been injured but who has been very effective when healthy..

Let's look at the others on your list

Brunell: They wanted/needed a veteran QB. Showing no patience, the FO raced out to get someone as soon as free agency opened up so that they could make a big spalsh and get Danny Boy a press conference opportunity to see himnself on TV and in the papers. They paid a lot of money for a guy who was being thrown to the curb by a 5-11 team. The outcome of that move has been way less than positive; in fact it ranks up there with the Jeff George signing in terms of boneheadedness.

Ramsey: Was he a first round pick or merely the first pick that the Skins had that year? Compare him to other QBs taken in the first/second rounds of the draft after being in the NFL for two and a half years. I'll be polite and say that he is "behind the curve".

Barrow: Who knows if this guy is a good player or a bad player because he has not played yet? Wasn't he on the Giants team that went to the Super Bowl? If so, he can't be a total stiff...

Trotter: The Redskins gave him a $35M total package with something like a $7M signing bonus. He is now playing back in Philly on a one year deal worth less than $1M in base salary. Do you think the Skins overpaid by just a tad?

Bowen: A mediocre player who got paid a mediocre salary. He was neither a positive nor a negative.


You also have conveniently left off your list totally some disastrous acquisitions such as Regan Upshaw, Jermaine Haley, Darryl Russell, Lionel Daulton and that other useless DT that they had last year whose name escapes me at the moment. None of the five of these guys were a good acquisition. Upshaw was the best of the lot and he was pretty much "useless".

Care to evaluate Man-Mountain Kenyatta in this context? How about Ray Brown?

You said you were not sure why Cerrato and the FO is "criticized so often". I hope I have explained...

1. I think your definition of Objectively reads, "See my opinion."

2. Ramsey is below the curve for someone picked in the first round? First of all, he was the last pick of the first round. Second of all, there were no QBs picked after him that are looking any better. Third, I'd take Ramsey (and his cap figures) over Harrington any day of the week.

3. Coles was a fantastic addition.

4. Thomas IS one of the best guards in the NFC.

5. Taylor isn't a fundamentally sound player? Dude, he's had about 5 starts.

6. Dave Fiore was a risky signing and he was paid like it. It was a gamble we lost.

7. Do you really believe Hall wasn't a good addition? Maybe we should have stuck with Jose Cortez.

8. We got hosed on the the Brunell deal and I admitted it.

9. Trotter tore his ACL, that's not VC's fault - plus, he's starting to do well in Philly again. Nevertheless, I admit we overpaid.

10. Jermaine Haley and Lional Dalton? Yeah we broke the bank for them.

11. We've always had some of the best talent in the NFC and that's what VC is here to do.

[sportscurmudgeon]

Ramseyfan:

"Objectively" does not mean "see my opinion". "Objectively" means last year's record was 5-11 and this year's record is 3-6. That combines to 8-17 which is objectively - - not so damned good.

So if we have always had some of the "best talent in the NFC", it certainly has not shown up on the field on Sundays. That's where objectivity happens. That's where the scoreboard tells you who won and who did not win. And this fantastic assemblage of talent has lost more than twice as often as it has won in the last two seasons. That is objectivity!

If you think that a squad that is 8-17 over the past year and a half is "great", you are entitled to your opinion. I don't think that is something that will stand up to an objective analysis.

I said Coles does not get in the end zone much. I believe he has scored 8 TDs in his 25 games with the Skins. That's not a lot for a #1 WR. You may love him as a person and as a player; all I said is he doesn't score a lot.

Ramsey is a first round pick playing QB. So look at the other first round QBs in the NFL and see how they have done after 2.5 years. Yes, Ramsey is a light year better than Akili Smith and Ryan Leaf and Cade McNown because they are out of the league. But beware of too many other comparisons. And by the way, I suspect that the Lions would not be willing to take Ramsey and ship Harrington here even-up.

Since you say Thomas IS one of the best guards in the NFC, that must make it so. Isn't that your version of "see my opinion"? Doubt he'll need to pack for a trip to Hawaii in February... Nonetheless, I still say he was a good signing by Vinnie.

Taylor is not going to learn fundamentals like tackling technique at the NFL level so his fundamental skills are likely to be what they are now. He'll improve his coverage as he learns to recognize situations - assuming he is capable of learning. The jury is out on that. Just wait till he goes into his "I wanna renegotiate" routine.

I said Hall was a good addition but that he has been hurt. BTW you didn't mention Tupa but he was a good addition too.

The Skins gave up a draft choice for Daulton and another draft choice for that other useless meatbag of a DT that they got from the Saints last year. Even if these two played for free last year, that is overpaying!

And since you didn't mention Darryl Russell, I'll assume you agree - on an obective basis of course - that it was "not a brilliant move" to bring him on board...

[MTK]

SC, why do you think Taylor can't improve upon his tackling in the NFL??

[sportscurmudgeon]

Matty:

The reason is that few if any players ever seem to do that. If anything, the majority of players erode tackling skills and sound fundamentals in favor of "big hits" and "SportsCenter shots" as their career's progress.

Maybe Sean Taylor will buck that trend? I doubt it, but he might.

[That Guy]

"Objectively" does not mean "see my opinion". "Objectively" means last year's record was 5-11 and this year's record is 3-6. That combines to 8-17 which is objectively - - not so damned good.

So if we have always had some of the "best talent in the NFC", it certainly has not shown up on the field on Sundays. That's where objectivity happens. That's where the scoreboard tells you who won and who did not win. And this fantastic assemblage of talent has lost more than twice as often as it has won in the last two seasons. That is objectivity!

and you don't think the massive coaching overhaul nearly every year had any part in stunting comfort in the system/stats/etc? cause i'd sure say that the massive personnel turn overs are a bigger problem than some of the individual players in our record... most first year coaches have losing records, and we've had a lot of first year HCs/DCs/OCs etc in recent history.

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

SC,

As I pointed out in my first post in this thread, our talent has never been suspect. Sure we have holes on the D-line, but name me a couple teams that don't have big holes on their roster.

What I said is that our team's woes are not due to a lack of talent (which Vinny is supposed to bring us), rather it is due to other factors (i.e. coaching, instability). So, I don't think that its "objective" to look at the record and make a determination about how much talent we have on the team.

[That Guy]

if you think player talent = wins... i'd say you should look at the saints....

[sportscurmudgeon]

A really good coach will usually make a difference of a win or two a year. Last year Parcells managed to get the Cowboys to overachieve by a humongous amount but that is very rare.

The bulk of NFL games are not decided by coaching matchups. If that were so, they could get the coaches to play chess and decide the outcome. Players win games and players lose games. And so it rationally and obectively follows that if a team has lost more than twice as many games as it has won, it is not nearly as superior in talent as its fans would want to believe.

Someone suggested that the problem was so many "first year coaches" here and that "first year coaches" tend to struggle. Maybe the reason that first year coaches tend to struggle is that MOST first year coaches are hired by teams that aren't very good - not enough talent - and so they don't do well in the first year of the new coach's tenure. Most Super Bowl teams bring back their coach next year unless he retires or has a spat with the owner that makes him pick up his toys and go elsewhere.

Part of the problem here is that folks fall in love with Redskin players and can't bring theselves to believe that some of them are merely average players and some others are below average in skill. If they were all really "stars" and "great" players, they would not be 8-17 over the last year and a half.

In some other thread, someone said that Patrick Ramsey - given time - could have a career that was equal to or better than Peyton Manning. Yes he could. But the chances are that he won't. You can wish for it and pray for it to happen, but the chances are, it won't. And when you go and try to evaluate the talent level on the Redskins, you shouldn't allow yourself to be sucked into that kind of wishful thinking.

I am not trying to argue that the coaching turnover - and the player turnover - on the Skins in the last 5 years has nothing to do with their lack of on-field success. Stability is good for a football team' see the Philly Eagles and New England Pats and Green Bay Packers as evidence. But stability is only a part of the equation and it is the part that takes a team from ordinary to sonsistently above ordinary. What the basis of success is talented football players at every position and depth and luck with regard to injuries. Given the right skill level - what the FO is supposed to provide - and the injury luck - from the football gods - then a stable coaching staff can mold a team into a contender. But without the talent, I don't care who the coach is.

[That Guy]

In some other thread, someone said that Patrick Ramsey - given time - could have a career that was equal to or better than Peyton Manning.

could you point that out, cause I've read every post and didn't see it... some people compared peyton's first year to ramsey's, but that's about it...

and i think play calling killed us this week... playing the leagues last ranked run D, and only calling 17 run plays? (which btw, got 81 yards)... i can't see how you can call 45 pass plays when your team is running so well... talent could have overcome it, but play calling and coaching can have a huge effect on how efficiently you use your talent...

we're not arizona oakland detriot chicago or miami, yet you tend to make it sound like we're totally hopeless every post...

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

That Bill Parcells was able to take a team that was 5-11 the year before into the playoffs says something about the importance of coaching. And Parcells' impact on the Boys was not some anomaly.

The Patriots are also able to do what they do largely because of coaching. The Bengals turned their fanchise around from the joke of the league into playoff contenders largely because of coaching. Andy Reid took a dying franchise and turned them into consistent playoff contenders despite being a team that year in and year out has some of the most cap space in the league. The list goes on and on.

Do we have the talent of a 13-3 team? No. Do we have the talent of a 5-11 (like last year)? NO WAY.

We are a team that always wins the offseason but loses in the regular season. Why? Who knows, but if you think its because guys like Taylor, Springs, Smoot, Arrington, Washington, Griffin, Coles, Thomas, Portis, Samuels, etc. don't cut it, you're kidding yourself.

[Defensewins]

Originally Posted by Ramseyfan

That Bill Parcells was able to take a team that was 5-11 the year before into the playoffs says something about the importance of coaching. And Parcells' impact on the Boys was not some anomaly.

The Patriots are also able to do what they do largely because of coaching. The Bengals turned their fanchise around from the joke of the league into playoff contenders largely because of coaching. Andy Reid took a dying franchise and turned them into consistent playoff contenders despite being a team that year in and year out has some of the most cap space in the league. The list goes on and on.

Do we have the talent of a 13-3 team? No. Do we have the talent of a 5-11 (like last year)? NO WAY.

We are a team that always wins the offseason but loses in the regular season. Why? Who knows, but if you think its because guys like Taylor, Springs, Smoot, Arrington, Washington, Griffin, Coles, Thomas, Portis, Samuels, etc. don't cut it, you're kidding yourself.

So where is Parcell's and his Cowboy's now? In the crapper. I guess his great coaching is not enough this year.
Bill Belichek had a terrible and record with the Patriots before Tom Brady emerged out of thin air.
It takes a lucky combintion of good talent and great coaching. You need both.
In Dallas last year what made the diffrence compared to this year is the emergence of Quincy Carter and their great defense. Quincy played a great game this last Sunday for the Jets. I think they blew it by letting him go and going with Vinny Testaverde.

[That Guy]

parcells D has gone straight into the crapper too, its not JUST QC leaving that's turned that team into a stinker...

[VTSkins897]

it's so obvious... we have talent but no continuity with the coach. very few can come in and make a huge change. you got 16 games. this isn't nba or mlb. furthermore of those 16 games if u blow it from the get-go, you're done. end of story. now these days as players talent levels get to be closer, you have to have a little something extra. chemistry in some form is a big part of it. manning-harrison, culpepper-moss, green-holmes in KC, the way lewis holds that D together. what we've had is a mess of players thrown together and put in a different situation every yr. what do you expect to happen? our best chance was keeping schottenheimer around. now i know there was conflict in the office and that it wasn't totally an option. but finishing a season like we did means ur gettin on a roll. bring in a good QB that yr or even give banks another, and youre gold. but instead

ahhhh cant think

[sportscurmudgeon]

That Guy:

You asked where someone here had said that Ramsey could turn into someone of the caliber of Peyton Manning. It took a while for me to go and find it, but check this out.

In the thread titled "Let's Play Redskins Owner" and in the first post there, diehardskin2982 says:


"I would hire a coach to work on Ramsey's footwork and mobiltiy skills and make a sound investment in his intellegence and his arm. He can be a Peyton Manning calaber player with proper growth. "


I'm not saying that can't happen because if it did happen that would not violate any of the laws of the known universe. But I will recommend to you very strongly that you do not go out and bet the mortgage money on that proposition! Peyton Manning will be a first ballot Hall of Fame inductee one of these years. It would be wonderful if Ramsey's career also merited that same honor, but nothing to date says that is a likely outcome.

We all agree that Patrick Ramsey's career has only just begun and that he will get better with experience. Now, tell me your opinion on this simple question:

Will Patrick Ramsey's career stats and accomplishments equal those of Peyton Manning's when both of them are retired and living off their pensions?

[That Guy]

SC, no, i don't think so... that was a long post i didn't remember, sorry for bringing up any doubt... but i agree that the chances are super slim there...