Kevin and Pat Williams, guilty or not?

FRPLG · 07-11-2009, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daseal

FRPLG -- I guarantee you this. You don't have a clue what type of chemicals you're ingesting when you eat a steak. There's a lot more than just meat in there. All sorts of growth hormones, etc. Do you know what they are? Doubt it. It's not on the packaging.

So what?

jsarno · 07-11-2009, 07:04 PM

Both sides of this argument have merit. I personally don't care either way, but I would have to lean towards guilty cause the test is cut and dry. It shouldn't matter where, or how a banned substance got in your system, it only matters that it did. Is it an unfortunate circumstance? Absolutely. (assuming you believe the story anyway)
The argument that makes me laugh is that "they have to make weight, so they took something to help them lose weight". OK...I get you need to lose weight. You are an athlete, act like one. Don't go nuts during the offseason and get way out of shape just to rely on a pill to get bring you back. The label should DEFINITELY say what's in it, no question, but that's a future legal action for the Williams'. That should be of no concern to the NFL. Horrible scenario, that's for sure.

jsarno · 07-11-2009, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daseal

-- I guarantee you this. You don't have a clue what type of chemicals you're ingesting when you eat a steak. There's a lot more than just meat in there. All sorts of growth hormones, etc. Do you know what they are? Doubt it. It's not on the packaging.

Valid argument, however, we don't NEED to take weight pills to survive, we do need to eat to live though. What the cow eats, or is fed before it is slaughtered is diffferent than actually adding something foreign to a pill. I do agree it needs to be on the packaging...100% agree...but this is also why there are regular steaks and organic steaks. The organic steaks are guarenteed to be free of those things. Don't want hormones, eat organic. Pretty simple.

Daseal · 07-11-2009, 11:11 PM

jsarno, not really. The if you read the FDA guidelines there are three different stages of 'organic.'

* 100 percent organic. Products that are completely organic or made of all organic ingredients.
* Organic. Products that are at least 95 percent organic.
* Made with organic ingredients. These are products that contain at least 70 percent organic ingredients. The organic seal can't be used on these packages.

Anyhow, they took the pills during the middle of the season. You get beat up, you can't really work out as much as you'd like to keep trim, and you don't want to pay the 2grand a day or whatever the overweight fine happens to be for the team. I would be completely on the side of those that say guilty had they not TRIED to contact the NFL to see if the substance was acceptable. That's the part that really bothers me.

FRPLG · 07-12-2009, 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daseal

I would be completely on the side of those that say guilty had they not TRIED to contact the NFL to see if the substance was acceptable. That's the part that really bothers me.

Yeah...in this case I say they're getting the shaft. I just think if any guilt can be shifted off of players and on to the league then they should get a pass. To me the NFL is resposnible for communicating the dangers of a supplement lie this if they have the info. How hard is it for them to have a damn website that they can update 24/7?

tryfuhl · 07-13-2009, 02:51 AM

I worked at a Vitamin Shoppe for quite awhile and never sold a bottle of star caps... it's expensive and is only listed as containing garlic and papaya extract of some type, I doubt that pro athletes are using that stuff even if they're the only ones that can afford to pay as much as they charge for that crap

now I wasn't there or anything, but who the hell is there telling NFL players they gotta try out this?

I understand the NFL not wanting their rules exploited but these bans have gone a bit too far -- you can't have everything that you consume tested

tryfuhl · 07-13-2009, 02:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daseal

jsarno, not really. The if you read the FDA guidelines there are three different stages of 'organic.'

* 100 percent organic. Products that are completely organic or made of all organic ingredients.
* Organic. Products that are at least 95 percent organic.
* Made with organic ingredients. These are products that contain at least 70 percent organic ingredients. The organic seal can't be used on these packages.

Anyhow, they took the pills during the middle of the season. You get beat up, you can't really work out as much as you'd like to keep trim, and you don't want to pay the 2grand a day or whatever the overweight fine happens to be for the team. I would be completely on the side of those that say guilty had they not TRIED to contact the NFL to see if the substance was acceptable. That's the part that really bothers me.

Didn't know that they tried to get the info, interesting.

RedBar · 07-13-2009, 05:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roth74va

The article says...The players contested that they took StarCaps, a weight-loss supplement, and that the label didn't say it contained bumetanide. This is true. The NFL admitted it knew StarCaps contained the diuretic, which, in turn, triggered a lawsuit from the Williams boys (no relation). The NFL should have informed the players in the league not to take this substance, according to the two Williamses and their attorney.

I disagree, I think they should be held responsible. I understand that they arent "psychics" or "doctors", but you should still have a clear understanding what you are taking when your job is on the line. These guys make a ton of money, and have immediate access to the best doctors and/or trainers that the clubs can provide. IMO....ignorance doesnt discount their violation of the rules, do your homework....or serve your time.

But....it is kinda sad that the league didnt put out the info beforehand.

I really do get the point that they are responsible for what they ingest, but I am not persuaded in this case. Sometimes there are mitigating circumstances. On another note it bothers me when I constantly hear the rationale that these guys make a ton of money... Does your income somehow correlate to your level of accountability when it comes to rules? Should we have more patience with people who are paid less? Maybe Peyton Manning should be held to a higher standard then a free agent punter? These guys don't get paid a lot of money because they moonlight as nutritionist, they exercised prudent care and they were let down on two fronts by the label and the NFL. Money doesn't suddenly give you all the answers and at the same time it shouldn't get you out of every jam. I think on this one the NFL should give it to the free agent punter and punt. And then if he screws it up maybe it won't seem as bad.

roth74va · 07-13-2009, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedBar

I really do get the point that they are responsible for what they ingest, but I am not persuaded in this case. Sometimes there are mitigating circumstances. On another note it bothers me when I constantly hear the rationale that these guys make a ton of money... Does your income somehow correlate to your level of accountability when it comes to rules? Should we have more patience with people who are paid less? Maybe Peyton Manning should be held to a higher standard then a free agent punter? These guys don't get paid a lot of money because they moonlight as nutritionist, they exercised prudent care and they were let down on two fronts by the label and the NFL. Money doesn't suddenly give you all the answers and at the same time it shouldn't get you out of every jam. I think on this one the NFL should give it to the free agent punter and punt. And then if he screws it up maybe it won't seem as bad.

Not judging on how much money they make, simply saying that it provides the option of the very best in healthcare. Most of us arent around trainers/doctors every single day at work. I do think the NFL could have done a better job of making the information available, but ultimately its the players responsibility.

I understand the other side of the arguement, and I will just agree to disagree at this point.

Hail to the Redskins!

KLHJ2 · 07-14-2009, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FRPLG

They ingested it themselves. Whether they knew or not doesn't take away the fact that they ingested on their own volition. To me ignorance isn't an excuse. I don't have a bad opinion of them but at the end of the day they took a banned substance. They should suffer the consequences. Now a lot of my feelings are mitigated by the fact that the league knew about this particular supplement and didn't tell players. To me, in that case because they failed to communicate properly, it totslly negates the players guilt. I'd just drop this if I were the league. But for me, in the future, if players take a banned substance they should reap the consequences regardless of intent or knowledge.

So if a girl has a drink that has been spiked with Rohypnol it is her fault and therefore should suffer the consequences because even though she trusted the guy that bought it for her she is essentially responsible for whatever she puts in her body? Or am I trying to compare Apples to Oranges?

Defensewins · 07-14-2009, 06:57 PM

Did the accused players ask their team doctor (free service) or the NFL if this particular product is safe? Did they spend a little bit of time and to get the NFL to test this product tested by a lab?
These are millionaire athletes, is it that much to ask them to work out, eating well and stay in shape?
Do they have another time demanding job that prevents them from hitting the gym?
I am sure all of the NFL teams have nutritionists available to the players for free. They also have work out coaches.
Why are these young men taking these short cuts and ingesting an unregulated pill? They have so much to lose, fines, suspensions, end of career, not to mention how dangerous these unregulated supplements have been in the past. Was it not a Vikings OL that had a heart attack and died on the practice field; and later it was found that he was taking a supplement that contributed to his death?

What happened to just losing weight the old fashion way?

saden1 · 07-15-2009, 12:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angry

So if a girl has a drink that has been spiked with Rohypnol it is her fault and therefore should suffer the consequences because even though she trusted the guy that bought it for her she is essentially responsible for whatever she puts in her body? Or am I trying to compare Apples to Oranges?

That's Apples to Apples...and if she suspects she has been rapped she aught to pay for the rape-kit.

FRPLG · 07-15-2009, 12:05 PM

Doesn't seem like apples to apples to me.

It comes down to how one perceives risk. I think it is pretty obvious that professional athletes ought to be very wary of supplements, regardless of what is on the label. Their livlihoods depend on them being smart and informed. Risk aversion should be high. For a girl in the stated situation she should also have some level of risk aversion but if she truely trusts then you can't much blame her now can you?

Essentially to equate the two you'd have to make the assumption that the players(the girl) had been taking said supplement long enough to have passed other tests(creating reasonable trust) and then the company who makes the supplement(the guy) decides to change the formula(slip in a roofie) for the purpose of getting the athletes banned(raped).

I don't think that is how it happened. But I am not sure we know all the details yet.

FRPLG · 07-15-2009, 12:13 PM

I guess my argument comes to this:

To me it is reasonable that athletes should have been more wary of this supplement, or any supplement for that matter. Relying on the label is a mistake they shouldn't make.

How this particular situation shifts in my mind though is that I DO think they have a reasonable expectation that the league will communicate properly when supplements are found to be mislabeled. It not being reported by the league is tantamount to them saying "we have no reason to ban this substance". In that case they weren't just relying on the label, they were relying on the league to be open. The league failed. They ought to give it up and learn from the situation.

KLHJ2 · 07-15-2009, 01:42 PM

I am sorry, but we are just not going to agree on this. I should not have to go any further than the label to determine what I am getting, and honestly, I would not. These two men did a heck of a lot more research than I would have done on those supplements and did not receive any information that would lead them to believe that the substance was 1 in the product or 2 banned by the league.

If you want to get real nit picky then you might have an argument that they should have waited for a definite answer from the league before taking the supplement. If that is the case though, then the league needs to provide a timely response.

If I were to make a ruling on this, then the Williams's would be innocent...this time. The league would be responsible for notifying players of a banned substance in a more timely fashion. Players would be obligated to wait for a definitive answer from the league before "assuming" that a supplement does not have a banned substance. Any company that is found not to list all substances contained in the product on its label would be fined.

If I were the Williams's I would sue the supplement company if they have not already done so.

View Poll Results: Are Kevin and Pat Williams Guilty?
Si	34	58.62%
Nyet	24	41.38%
Voters: 58. You may not vote on this poll

07-11-2009, 07:04 PM	#17
jsarno Franchise Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: 31 Spooner St. Age: 49 Posts: 9,534	Re: Kevin and Pat Williams, guilty or not? Both sides of this argument have merit. I personally don't care either way, but I would have to lean towards guilty cause the test is cut and dry. It shouldn't matter where, or how a banned substance got in your system, it only matters that it did. Is it an unfortunate circumstance? Absolutely. (assuming you believe the story anyway) The argument that makes me laugh is that "they have to make weight, so they took something to help them lose weight". OK...I get you need to lose weight. You are an athlete, act like one. Don't go nuts during the offseason and get way out of shape just to rely on a pill to get bring you back. The label should DEFINITELY say what's in it, no question, but that's a future legal action for the Williams'. That should be of no concern to the NFL. Horrible scenario, that's for sure. __________________ Zoltan is ZESTY! - courtesy of joeredskin

07-11-2009, 11:11 PM	#19
Daseal Puppy Kicker Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Arlington, Virginia Age: 41 Posts: 8,341	Re: Kevin and Pat Williams, guilty or not? jsarno, not really. The if you read the FDA guidelines there are three different stages of 'organic.' * 100 percent organic. Products that are completely organic or made of all organic ingredients. * Organic. Products that are at least 95 percent organic. * Made with organic ingredients. These are products that contain at least 70 percent organic ingredients. The organic seal can't be used on these packages. Anyhow, they took the pills during the middle of the season. You get beat up, you can't really work out as much as you'd like to keep trim, and you don't want to pay the 2grand a day or whatever the overweight fine happens to be for the team. I would be completely on the side of those that say guilty had they not TRIED to contact the NFL to see if the substance was acceptable. That's the part that really bothers me. __________________ Best. Player. Available.

07-13-2009, 02:51 AM	#21
tryfuhl Gamebreaker Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Waldorf, MD Age: 41 Posts: 12,514	Re: Kevin and Pat Williams, guilty or not? I worked at a Vitamin Shoppe for quite awhile and never sold a bottle of star caps... it's expensive and is only listed as containing garlic and papaya extract of some type, I doubt that pro athletes are using that stuff even if they're the only ones that can afford to pay as much as they charge for that crap now I wasn't there or anything, but who the hell is there telling NFL players they gotta try out this? I understand the NFL not wanting their rules exploited but these bans have gone a bit too far -- you can't have everything that you consume tested

07-14-2009, 06:57 PM	#26
Defensewins Playmaker Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 3,749	Re: Kevin and Pat Williams, guilty or not? Did the accused players ask their team doctor (free service) or the NFL if this particular product is safe? Did they spend a little bit of time and to get the NFL to test this product tested by a lab? These are millionaire athletes, is it that much to ask them to work out, eating well and stay in shape? Do they have another time demanding job that prevents them from hitting the gym? I am sure all of the NFL teams have nutritionists available to the players for free. They also have work out coaches. Why are these young men taking these short cuts and ingesting an unregulated pill? They have so much to lose, fines, suspensions, end of career, not to mention how dangerous these unregulated supplements have been in the past. Was it not a Vikings OL that had a heart attack and died on the practice field; and later it was found that he was taking a supplement that contributed to his death? What happened to just losing weight the old fashion way?

07-15-2009, 12:05 PM	#28
FRPLG MVP Join Date: May 2004 Age: 46 Posts: 10,164	Re: Kevin and Pat Williams, guilty or not? Doesn't seem like apples to apples to me. It comes down to how one perceives risk. I think it is pretty obvious that professional athletes ought to be very wary of supplements, regardless of what is on the label. Their livlihoods depend on them being smart and informed. Risk aversion should be high. For a girl in the stated situation she should also have some level of risk aversion but if she truely trusts then you can't much blame her now can you? Essentially to equate the two you'd have to make the assumption that the players(the girl) had been taking said supplement long enough to have passed other tests(creating reasonable trust) and then the company who makes the supplement(the guy) decides to change the formula(slip in a roofie) for the purpose of getting the athletes banned(raped). I don't think that is how it happened. But I am not sure we know all the details yet.

07-15-2009, 12:13 PM	#29
FRPLG MVP Join Date: May 2004 Age: 46 Posts: 10,164	Re: Kevin and Pat Williams, guilty or not? I guess my argument comes to this: To me it is reasonable that athletes should have been more wary of this supplement, or any supplement for that matter. Relying on the label is a mistake they shouldn't make. How this particular situation shifts in my mind though is that I DO think they have a reasonable expectation that the league will communicate properly when supplements are found to be mislabeled. It not being reported by the league is tantamount to them saying "we have no reason to ban this substance". In that case they weren't just relying on the label, they were relying on the league to be open. The league failed. They ought to give it up and learn from the situation.

07-15-2009, 01:42 PM	#30
KLHJ2 Inactive Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: DC Metro Area Age: 46 Posts: 5,829	Re: Kevin and Pat Williams, guilty or not? I am sorry, but we are just not going to agree on this. I should not have to go any further than the label to determine what I am getting, and honestly, I would not. These two men did a heck of a lot more research than I would have done on those supplements and did not receive any information that would lead them to believe that the substance was 1 in the product or 2 banned by the league. If you want to get real nit picky then you might have an argument that they should have waited for a definite answer from the league before taking the supplement. If that is the case though, then the league needs to provide a timely response. If I were to make a ruling on this, then the Williams's would be innocent...this time. The league would be responsible for notifying players of a banned substance in a more timely fashion. Players would be obligated to wait for a definitive answer from the league before "assuming" that a supplement does not have a banned substance. Any company that is found not to list all substances contained in the product on its label would be fined. If I were the Williams's I would sue the supplement company if they have not already done so.

Kevin and Pat Williams, guilty or not?

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