Learning Under Vets? Coaching Up?

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by SBXVII

....I think it's probably more his job to teach fundamentals for which I get blasted about how players should already have the fundamentals or they would not have made it to the pros. I believe this to be a false statement......

I agree with you, even at the DI college level some of the coaches aren't teaching good fundamentals. They're more worried about scheme (and some don't do that well) & recruiting. Plus the NFL is a different game from college anyway.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Has Collins made himself available to Young?

Not that Peter King hasn't been wrong before, but King states in the article: "I have heard that Collins went out of his way last year to try to help Young when the struggling quarterback was having his quasi-breakdown. Young had no interest."

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

Not that Peter King hasn't been wrong before, but King states in the article: "I have heard that Collins went out of his way last year to try to help Young when the struggling quarterback was having his quasi-breakdown. Young had no interest."

Well then yeah, that's all on Young then.

Renaldo Wynn sort of addressed this issue in our chat with him a couple of years back.


WP: You’re often called a “locker room leader” And I know you like to take your teammates out to get to know them outside of football. Is this a role you naturally took upon yourself or, as a veteran, were you asked to fill this role?

RW: I just have a compassion for my teammates; I think this something natural that if they want me to find things out; I’ll do it. I want to see things through, see them be happy, especially the young guys that’s why this is my 6th year being a rep for my team, your teammates vote you, and they know that you have a moral conscious. I’ll do what’s right despite interests. Going to tell them what I feel is right and what’s in their best interest. You rep the players. Rep for the players and the rights of the player.

[SBXVII]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Well then yeah, that's all on Young then.

Renaldo Wynn sort of addressed this issue in our chat with him a couple of years back.


WP: You’re often called a “locker room leader” And I know you like to take your teammates out to get to know them outside of football. Is this a role you naturally took upon yourself or, as a veteran, were you asked to fill this role?

RW: I just have a compassion for my teammates; I think this something natural that if they want me to find things out; I’ll do it. I want to see things through, see them be happy, especially the young guys that’s why this is my 6th year being a rep for my team, your teammates vote you, and they know that you have a moral conscious. I’ll do what’s right despite interests. Going to tell them what I feel is right and what’s in their best interest. You rep the players. Rep for the players and the rights of the player.

The Reputable Wynn. LOL.

[Kope]

I would say there are multiple facets of veteran leadership - some more critical than others

1. How to live and act of the field - this is not critical and mostly on the kid to act in accordance w/ the rules

2. How to prepare and become a Professional this is more critical and falls hand and glove w/ #1; if the kid is preparing he will have less time to find trouble

Both 1 and 2 fall into the overated category for me. As stated in this thread, at some point the kid has to step up and make the commitment to the NFL over the glamour that goes with it.

3. How to play like a champion when things look bad in a game. This is where a good veteran can be critical. I would say London Fletcher and chris Cooley fall into this category - high standards and ability to make plays when it matters forces the rest of the team play better. I chose Fletcher / Cooley over Ray Lewis / Tom Brady types to focus on their leadership on the field over the power of their pure talent, however, I think both Brady and Lewis have alot of field leadership as well.

My 2c

[an23dy]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

Warren Sapp hit the nail on the head on this issue. This isn't just an NFL problem, it's everywhere.

Derrick Brooks, Warren Sapp, Vince Young in Monday Morning QB - Peter King - SI.com

From the article:
"I'll tell you the real reason,'' his friend Warren Sapp said over the weekend. "Because it's not the same for the veterans anymore. The NFL doesn't need us. In this NFL, the old vets don't factor in. The kids don't listen to nobody. Nobody! My last year in Oakland, I'd try to talk to some of the kids. Tommy Kelly, Terdell Sands. But they had no interest. I thought the ghosts in that building were so valuable, but none of the young guys cared. Once in a while, one of the old legends would come in the building, or make a trip. Jack Tatum would be around, and I'd say, 'You know who that dude is? You know how he played?' And the kids would be like, 'Nah, I don't care.'
"The game's different now. Look at Vince Young. Why wouldn't he listen to Kerry Collins? I'm sure Vince thinks, 'Nobody's been through what I'm going through. Nobody's been through my kind of pressure.' Are you kidding me! Kerry Collins, fifth pick in the draft, has all the ups and downs, gets benched, makes those racist comments, has the alcohol problems, moves from team to team, comes back, has success ... Vince Young should suck up all the knowledge Kerry Collins has to offer! There's no better role model for him.''

There's a distance between young guys and vets, but if a guy isn't going to listen to another player he's not going to take much stock in what a coach is going to say either. I think it's more of a player thing than related to veterans vs. coaches. I think you learn from a veteran a completely different set of information than from a coach. The coach can give you the knowledge and how it fits into the scheme and all that, but a veteran can tell you how to apply it and what you need to do to be successful. There's a reason why these guys have been in the league for 10 years, they know how to play the game.

My guesses for Redskins veterans that are ineffective or unwilling to mentor other players (completely speculative and just based on the media).
-Santana Moss - no recievers have developed here lately and I've never heard the young guys talk about how Moss has helped them
-Clinton Portis - don't hear anything about his leadership or mentoring, I hear about him working out a lot on his own, and he's always worried about his carries
-Fred Smoot - he seems real talkative but in a trash talking way, don't know if he has a serious side where he teaches guys, also what he said about Kevin Barnes makes me think he's more concerned about his spot

[MTK]

Originally Posted by an23dy

Santana Moss - no recievers have developed here lately and I've never heard the young guys talk about how Moss has helped them

You must not be listening too closely because Moss gets mentioned all the time by guys like Thomas as being a mentor for him.

exhibit A:

Thomas was happy to discuss Moss, whom he called his mentor.

"He's my big brother," Thomas said. "I've got to show him some love here because he's shown me the ropes."

link

[an23dy]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

You must not be listening too closely because Moss gets mentioned all the time by guys like Thomas as being a mentor for him.

exhibit A:

Just me speculating, it's probably more of a media thing, how Moss is seen as a guy that flashes gang signs, gets a celebration penalty here and there, is from the U, he's still kinda young, and all that. I just don't hear Moss and mentor that often. I didn't read that article. I looked at Devin Thomas' blog, didn't see anything. Hadn't heard from Malcolm Kelly. Jerry Rice gets mentioned a lot as a mentor, from DeSean Jackson, Steve Smith, and other guys, you hear a lot about Hines Ward mentoring guys. I've heard Marvin Harrison, Derrick Mason, Torry Holt, Joe Horn, but I just don't put Moss in that category. I think Kelly and Thomas were a lot more raw than I thought they should have been. They seemed very unpolished in their route running and Thomas had more penalties than he should have for how little he played. Somebody has to be at fault, maybe they're not that good, maybe it's because they're rookies, or the injuries, or the WR coach.

[MTK]

^^ No offense but I think you have the totally wrong impression of Moss. When does he flash gang signs?? He flashes 2-1 for ST.

[an23dy]

I think I'm wrong about the gang sign thing, but for some reason I thought that was a story once. Anyways, I'm probably wrong about him, don't know why but for some reason I have the perception that he isn't seen as a nice guy.

[53Fan]

Originally Posted by an23dy

I think I'm wrong about the gang sign thing, but for some reason I thought that was a story once. Anyways, I'm probably wrong about him, don't know why but for some reason I have the perception that he isn't seen as a nice guy.

Sometimes one's perception is the problem.

[GMScud]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

^^ No offense but I think you have the totally wrong impression of Moss. When does he flash gang signs?? He flashes 2-1 for ST.

Yeah, I saw Santana's United Way commercial on NFL Network last night. Looks like a real scumbag.

[sportscurmudgeon]

Just because a guy is a veteran does not mean he is - - or could be - - a mentor. Some people take to that role; others do not. Trading to acquire a vet who is not a mentor-at-heart and expecting him to play that role is as bad as signing a veteran free agent safety who can't cover a corpse and then realizing it's not gonna work out when you ask him to play a cover position. [cough**AA**cough].

Some young players will take advice from a mentor; others will not. If you have a rookie on your squad who is convinced that he knows it all and that he is God's gift to the NFL, you can have all the mentors and position coaches on the planet on your payroll, that kid is gonna do it his way.

Some players will take - or even seek - advice from another player that they will not take from a coach. That doesn't make a lot of sense, but it happens.

By all accounts, Derrick Brooks is the kind of player who would be a mentor to younger players. If a team needs a part-time linebacker and has young players who might be amenable to some veteran leadership, Brooks would be a good fit with that team.

[SBXVII]

^I agree. Also I wonder how much of our problem is (if any at all) that we seem to pick up blue collar players. Players that are not #1 in their position but are servicable cause they are cheap. Then these blue collar players are constantly looking over their shoulder wondering if the next kid brought in is going to be better then them so they don't give them all the info they would need in other words only giving them 50% of the tips they know to the rookies in order to keep their jobs.

I know I'm probably thinking too much into this but if you were a #1 player at your position then you would not have problems mentoring younger players knowing full well they would have a hard time taking your job. But if your simply an ok person at your position then I wonder if the way of thinking is "good luck rookie." Then compound that problem with injuries to our starters and the rookies or second string player is getting a crash course from the vet while playing.

[SBXVII]

Here is another example of having to learn something he should have in college;

Jason Williams interview:

“I need to work on my transitioning speed, downfield running and catching the ball in traffic,” Williams said. “I need to work on how to keep running even when the ball is not going my way and take the [safety] coverage off the top by maintaining my speed.”


“I’m just working on getting bigger, faster and stronger,” Williams said of his workouts. “I’m working out and getting some extra running in as well as catching. I’m trying to get reps with the quarterbacks, more so with [fellow rookie] Chase [Daniel] because he will pretty much be my quarterback during the preseason.”

One of the larger tasks for all the rookies has been learning the extensive playbook.

Williams understands that knowledge of the playbook is something that also can set himself apart from the other rookie receivers.

“I need to stay sharp in the playbook and work just as much if not more than the next guy. It’s a dog-eat-dog league and there is no rest for the weary here,” Williams said of the competition. “I just need to try and stay one step ahead by knowing the plays and going out there as much as I can.”
The more time Williams gets to learn the offense, the better chance he has of earning that fifth spot on the depth chart at wide receiver.

“Once you understand the concepts, the hardest part is splits and how far you are [lined up] from the next guy because that ultimately decides the play,” Williams said. “It’s all about timing in the NFL.

“We just need more time in the playbook to learn those plays. We go out there so we can get acclimated to running the plays on the field.”