Portis restructures (Skins about $5M under the cap)

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

I agree on the leaders part, but Rock's on field performance is worth more than 2 mil in guarentees.

Not a whole lot more, but 2 million guarenteed over say 3 years would be well below market value for Rock.

Maybe but I am not convinced market value is the correct value for his production. I really do think he could be replaced on kick returns and we'd probably see very little if any difference. He just isn't great. He certainly isn't bad but nothing about his performance has ever led me to believe he does things that aren't rather easily replaced. I tend to think his returns are more a function of solid teams play rather than his ability in general.

[Schneed10]

I should note that we don't technically have $4.9 million in cap space right now as JLC is suggesting. The $4.9 he's quoting assumes that the savings for Brandon Lloyd has already cleared from the books. This is not the case; savings from him don't clear the books until June 1.

We technically have $2.35 million in cap space right now. A Portis restructure will save at least $3.6 million, bringing us to $5.95 million in room.

Then once Lloyd clears the books on June 1, we'll have $8.35 million in room. So JLC's numbers are on, but his timing is just a little off, that's all.

Our rookie pool will take up no more than $4 million, and will probably be closer to $3.5 as FRPLG noted. The 'Skins are clearly leaving space to re-sign Frost, Fabini (or a guy like him), and Cartwright. On top of those moves, they would still have space for a Bryant Johnson or DJ Hackett.

And while it would be tight, they could forego a Johnson/Hackett move, trade a pick away to reduce the rookie pool, and acquire Chad Johnson. It would be tight, but they could fit that in. Moot point though if the Bengals insist on keeping him.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by FRPLG

Maybe but I am not convinced market value is the correct value for his production. I really do think he could be replaced on kick returns and we'd probably see very little if any difference. He just isn't great. He certainly isn't bad but nothing about his performance has ever led me to believe he does things that aren't rather easily replaced. I tend to think his returns are more a function of solid teams play rather than his ability in general.

I tend to agree... I think Betts would be just as effective on kick returns if not more.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

I tend to agree... I think Betts would be just as effective on kick returns if not more.

But that 3rd RB, if you let Cartwright go, has to be someone who's excellent on kickoff and punt coverage. Because Rock is. If you let him walk and don't replace him with as good a coverage guy (Marcus Mason is not an answer there) then our kick coverage teams take a hit.

I say throw the guy a bone, he deserves a chunk of change.

He's not going to get the $2 million guaranteed, or whatever it is he wants, on the open market. We can let him sit out there for a bit and then give him $1 million guaranteed and bring back one of our best all-around special teamers.

Betts was good as a kick returner, but if you can have your 3rd RB doing that task just as effectively, it makes you deeper because it keeps your #2 back fresher and healthier. And you need to be deep at RB. Look at the Pack and the Giants last year. Ahmad Bradshaw?

[MTK]

Don't get me wrong I'd rather not see Betts back there, he's more valuable to us as the #2 RB. I would like to see Rock back at the right price.

[onlydarksets]

Hmm...someone should start a thread about Rock Cartwright. I haven't seen one of those yet.

Thanks, as always, for the numbers, guys.

[freddyg12]

I'd love to see Rock back at the right price as well. Also like to see us re-sign everyone else the staff wants to bring back, though I'm very surprised they want Fabini back.

My opinion & hope on the resturctures is that the intent is to shore up the cap to be in position to re-sign JC!

I hope he plays well enough that by mid season they start talking to his agent.

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

But that 3rd RB, if you let Cartwright go, has to be someone who's excellent on kickoff and punt coverage. Because Rock is. If you let him walk and don't replace him with as good a coverage guy (Marcus Mason is not an answer there) then our kick coverage teams take a hit.

I say throw the guy a bone, he deserves a chunk of change.

He's not going to get the $2 million guaranteed, or whatever it is he wants, on the open market. We can let him sit out there for a bit and then give him $1 million guaranteed and bring back one of our best all-around special teamers.

Betts was good as a kick returner, but if you can have your 3rd RB doing that task just as effectively, it makes you deeper because it keeps your #2 back fresher and healthier. And you need to be deep at RB. Look at the Pack and the Giants last year. Ahmad Bradshaw?

I tend to agree actually I am just trying to bring some perspective to those who see way more than what is really there when it comes to Rock.

I do:

- Like his leadership and it isn't completely worthless but it isn't s main decision maker for me
- Think his overall contribution on Teams is valuable
- Think he is a hard worker

but I don't think he is a fantastic returner or is irreplaceable and the money he wants is simply just too much for what he gives us.

If we can get him for more like what Schneed has said then I am down with that. He is worth more than a random guy with no ties to the team who can do the same job so give him a little bit of a premium but let's not even go close to paying him anything that takes more than minimal cap space.

[MTK]

Well, Fabini did a pretty good job last year fillling in and he would definitely be quality depth for us. I'm surprised Miami hasn't snatched him up yet. Hopefully that means we still have a good shot.

[FRPLG]

Originally Posted by freddyg12

I'd love to see Rock back at the right price as well. Also like to see us re-sign everyone else the staff wants to bring back, though I'm very surprised they want Fabini back.

My opinion & hope on the resturctures is that the intent is to shore up the cap to be in position to re-sign JC!

I hope he plays well enough that by mid season they start talking to his agent.

Fabini really played pretty decently as the season went on. He was out of position so any struggles early on were understandable. I think he suffered from bad pub early on because he didn't take to guard as quickly as coaches thought he could with his experience but in the end he really did an adequate job which is all you can ask from your depth guys. Someone like Fabini is just so valuable because he can swing and play tackle or guard for us. You just HAVE to have depth o-linemen who can play multiple positions nowadays. It is what I think gives Wade a problem coming into the season. He has shown he can't play guard effectively and his tackle play last year wasn't near what they thought he could do. Plus Heyer was just about as good if not better and is younger and cheaper.

[firstdown]

I thought Rock was looking more for a team that would give him the chance to play more RB than he will get here as a Redskin. The times he has had a chance here he has done a pretty good job but its been some time sense he has had any chances. I think after he test the market and finds that no other team is going to give him a chance then he will sign with the Skins. I don't see him signing with another team to just return kicks unless they offer him such big $ for what he does.

[SC Skins Fan]

Originally Posted by FRPLG

I tend to agree actually I am just trying to bring some perspective to those who see way more than what is really there when it comes to Rock.

I do:

- Like his leadership and it isn't completely worthless but it isn't s main decision maker for me
- Think his overall contribution on Teams is valuable
- Think he is a hard worker

but I don't think he is a fantastic returner or is irreplaceable and the money he wants is simply just too much for what he gives us.

If we can get him for more like what Schneed has said then I am down with that. He is worth more than a random guy with no ties to the team who can do the same job so give him a little bit of a premium but let's not even go close to paying him anything that takes more than minimal cap space.

What money does he want exactly? Does anyone have a good handle on that? Is he talking about $2M guaranteed for next season or over the life of a 3 or 4 year contract? If he was $6-8M guaranteed over the life of the deal I could see where that is way overpriced, but if he just wants a $2M signing bonus that seems quite reasonable. Amortized over a 4 year deal you're talking about $500K/year. Doesn't seem like that all that much to ask for, but I guess if the market dictates less than the Skins should do what is in their interest.

[MTK]

I think he's looking for about $2M per season

[QBall]

Originally Posted by GMScud

I disagree. Rock is a return yardage stud and a locker room favorite. Despite not being a regular starter, he is a team leader and career-long Redskin. I think he brings intangibles that are very important to the team. $2M in guarantees isn't unreasonable at all for Rock IMO. Especially if we can give him a smaller base salary this year to still leave room for our draft picks and maybe an additional WR.

I agree he's a great player for us on special teams and we need to sign him.

[QBall]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

Don't get me wrong I'd rather not see Betts back there, he's more valuable to us as the #2 RB. I would like to see Rock back at the right price.

What does it matter to you if he makes 1 million or 2? Not like his money will affect the team in any way.