Per Vinny Cerrato, JC is our QB this season!

[Paintrain]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

Sorry if i missed your responses in the other thread, getting to your bottom line statement -

Campbell was NOT playing at a pro-bowl level early on in the season. All that talk was ridiculous at the time, especially him being talked about as MVP of the league, let alone the team. All campbell did in the first few games was just not throw interceptions... something which was primarily a result Zorn not letting him throw much and really giving him an elementary form of the offense to run. Obviously, when Zorn opened things up some, Campbell was asked to do more... and we all know how the last 8 games went. We did so well in the first half of the season because Campbell wasnt doing much and we were relying on Clinton Portis. As the season wore on, our line declined and so did Clinton. Zorn tried to open things up, he put more on Campbells shoulders, and Campbell couldnt handle it.

Can you point out a couple of games where that was the case? I've watched most of our games at least twice and I don't remember any games where Zorn tried to open it up and "Campbell couldn't handle it". I remember many games where he was running for his life at times when he tried to pass or catchable balls were dropped. He had plenty of missteps also, not absolving him of all blame.

If we had won the Cincy game, where Cooley fumbled on the 1st drive, Benson had an 80 yard screen pass (which led to Rogers getting beat for an easy TD pass-call back to the Hall/Rogers argument) and Sellers fumbled at the goal line would we be having this discussion?

If we had won the SF game where we had a 17-7 lead at halftime yet pissed it away in the 2nd half (despite Campbell driving us down and tying the game with 1:15 left before the defense gave up the game winning drive), would we be having this discussion?

If anything, Zorn got more conservative as the year went on and took the ball out of Campbell's hand because we couldn't protect the passer. You are taking the same route as the lazy national media and not actually using game based logic, rather just spouting general theory.

[tryfuhl]

Can't we just hug it out?

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

If we had won the Cincy game, where Cooley fumbled on the 1st drive, Benson had an 80 yard screen pass (which led to Rogers getting beat for an easy TD pass-call back to the Hall/Rogers argument) and Sellers fumbled at the goal line would we be having this discussion?

DeSean Jackson, anyone?

Seriously though, that was a rather lacking play from Rogers. I'll give you that.

[GusFrerotte]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

The Moss TD after he shook the unblocked guy was crazy awesome.

And, yeah, it was the Lions, but he did throw for 350 or something that day.

350 yards and how many TD's? THe point of the game is to get the TD's. And my point about lighting it up was talking about points. Give me JC throwing for only 200 yards a game with a couple scores and I would be a happy camper. As with babes, the object of the game is to score!!!!!!!!

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by GusFrerotte

350 yards and how many TD's? THe point of the game is to get the TD's. And my point about lighting it up was talking about points. Give me JC throwing for only 200 yards a game with a couple scores and I would be a happy camper. As with babes, the object of the game is to score!!!!!!!!

One or two? I don't remember, it was significant in the outcome of the game though.

Did you really just respond to my fawning over a Campbell TD pass by stating that the point is to get TDs, implying that Campbell isn't getting it done?

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by Soup's Uncle

Jesse Spano became addicted to meth when the girls had their girl group.

The best is when they had the band "Zack Attack" and had the hit single "Friends Forever"...only they didn't stay friends. The fame got to their heads...kind of like football players.

That episode is on right now!

[MTK]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

On this level I've gotta admit a level of admiration for BHA, he doesn't mind verbally sparring with the bullies who are kicking him senseless while he's already down, metaphorically speaking.

Meh, I don't know. There's a certain honor and dignity to knowing when to stop don't ya think?

[Ruhskins]

Originally Posted by tryfuhl

Can't we just hug it out?

This looks more like sumo wrestling. LOL.

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Originally Posted by Ruhskins

Dude, I'm tired of you. One thing is to doubt the team you follow and hope they do something you think is better. But you're just trying to prove that you are right. I mean what type of "fan" writes long threads talking about how their team's QB is going to fail? People keep pointing out some factual errors on your argument, yet you just dismiss them as nothing. Shit, at least admit some of those mistakes.

Sorry if ive gotten under your skin, but please dont question whether i'm a fan - i love the Redskins. I think Jason Campbell is a horrible fit for our offense. I do not look at him through rose-colored glasses. I don't make excuses for him. I am confident that 2009 is going to be a wasted year if hes our QB. With that premise, and because i'm a fan, i want us to move on and start building around someone who can take us places. I don't want Campbell to fail because i want to be proved right or something crazy like that. I feel very strongly about my opinion of him and I want the TEAM to succeed. I feel the team has a better long-term chance of success with someone else under center. Right now, id rather have a 2nd round pick than Jason Campbell. Agree or disagree with me, thats fine. But its still my opinion, as a fan who wants this team to succeed.

Originally Posted by Ruhskins

- You stated that Jason Campbell has been in the same offense two years in a row (2006-2007 seasons). FACT: Jason Campbell started ONLY 6 games in 2006 and the whole season 2007. That is not two whole seasons. And the whole part is important, because we are talking about continuity and familiarity with the subject.

How does the fact that he only started 6 games one of thoese years have anything to do with my saying he was in the same system two years? He competed for the starting job in 06 and "lost" to an aging Brunell (wrong decision by Gibbs) and went into 2007 as the starter. Granted, playing time is very very important, as is practice with the first team offense, but he was in the system two whole seasons. That was my argument. I never tried to say he was the starter for two whole seasons, so dont try to strengthen your argument by accusing me of saying things i didnt say.

Originally Posted by Ruhskins

You stated that Jason Campbell was not playing at the Pro Bowl level during the first half of the season. FACT: He was playing at a Pro Bowl level during the first 8 games. And respected sports journalists said so AT THAT TIME. Yes, he declined during the second half, for many reasons, however you dismiss JC's good play in those first 8 games because they don't fit with your anti-Campbell threads.

How is it a "fact" that he was performing at a pro-bowl level? Thats a matter of opinion. All campbell did was manage games and not throw interceptions - generally, that doesnt get a guy in the pro-bowl. In the first half of the season, Campbell only threw 8 Touchdowns - thats an average of one a game. usually, guys averaging 1 TD a game dont go to the pro-bowl.

Its nice to say "he was performing at a pro-bowl level" but what does that really mean? To make it to the pro-bowl, Campbell would have be one of the top 3 QBs in the NFC (1 Starter, 2 alternates). Was he?

For their first 8 games of the season, Kurt Warner (14TD, 6 INT), Drew Brees (15TD, 7 INT), Tony Romo (14-5 in only 6 games before injury), and Aaron Rogers (13 TD, 5 INT) were all performing at a higher level than Campbell. (I looked up TDs and INTs online but not yards and other stats because i dont have the time). Campbell was playing exceptionally effecient, but he wasnt doing enough to garner serious pro-bowl consideration. he certainly couldnt be considered better than Warner, Brees or Romo, although an argument could have been made for Rogers. Either way, he wouldnt have been in teh top 3. During the first half of the season, Campbells play was more in line with that of guys like Eli manning and Donovan McNabb - good, but not good enough to go to the pro-bowl.

Originally Posted by Ruhskins

- You make arguments based on your opinion and treat them as facts. And make predictions that you are so certain about them, they sound fanatical. FACT: You and I are fans, not football experts. If you are one, please enlighten us then, but as far as what I know about you, you are not one (and neither am I).

- Finally, you DO realize that as fans we're supposed to drink the Kool Aid? Shit, I'm a big Maryland Terrapins fan, and I had them in the Sweet Sixteen in my bracket, not because it makes sense or I studied tape or I'm freaking Andy Katz, I did it because I'm a fan and as a fan I drink the Kool Aid.

Fans are not "supposed" to drink the koolaid - if you do, thats your choice and thats fine - but drinking the Koolaid only results in disappointment. I have found in my years of being a skins fan, that I enjoy the games much more if i have realistic (ie lower) expectations. Like you said, we are both fans. I'm not an expert and usually dont have time to do mountains of research. I base most of my opinions off of what I personally see, what I read, and what my friends see. None of my friends are Redskins fans, and i find their opinions are often far more objective.

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

Can you point out a couple of games where that was the case? I've watched most of our games at least twice and I don't remember any games where Zorn tried to open it up and "Campbell couldn't handle it". I remember many games where he was running for his life at times when he tried to pass or catchable balls were dropped. He had plenty of missteps also, not absolving him of all blame.

If we had won the Cincy game, where Cooley fumbled on the 1st drive, Benson had an 80 yard screen pass (which led to Rogers getting beat for an easy TD pass-call back to the Hall/Rogers argument) and Sellers fumbled at the goal line would we be having this discussion?

If we had won the SF game where we had a 17-7 lead at halftime yet pissed it away in the 2nd half (despite Campbell driving us down and tying the game with 1:15 left before the defense gave up the game winning drive), would we be having this discussion?

If anything, Zorn got more conservative as the year went on and took the ball out of Campbell's hand because we couldn't protect the passer. You are taking the same route as the lazy national media and not actually using game based logic, rather just spouting general theory.

Zorn screwed with the running game the 2nd half of the season, which obviously hurt everything, but go to this link here and tell me you dont see Campbell with more pass attempts in the 2nd half of the season.

Jason Campbell: Game Logs

First 8 games, with one exception, Pass attempts range from 23 to 31 per game. Last 8 games, attempts range from 30 to 38, with a high of 43. We were passing more the 2nd half of the year.

In the first half of the year, we were successful largely because we relied on Gibbs power running game and not Campbell. Campbell was doing what he's best at - managing a game. In the 2nd half of of the season, IMO Zorn got cocky and tried to do more of the pass-happy WCO. We relied more on Campbell and less on Portis. The results speak for themselves. I

am very critical of Campbell, but i'm even more critical of Zorn - great coaches adapt their system, schemes, play-calling, etc to suit the talent they have on their roster. In the second half of the season, Zorn tried to make the talent on the roster fit his system (square peg, round hole). In 2009, Zorn needs to do one of two things: Keep his system and go with another quarterback (unlikely) or look at Campbell; look at the Line; look at our RBs; look at our WRs; and adjust his scheme to suit their strengths and hide their weaknesses. As simple and reasonable as that sounds, most coaches have too much of an ego to adapt. Theyd rather try to change the players than change themselves.

[MTK]

Generally you pass more when playing from behind. It didn't have anything to do with Zorn trying to open things up. He's not that dumb, with a broken down OL he wasn't trying to open things up just for the sake of showing off his offense. In the 2nd half of the season they were playing from behind more and hence throwing the ball more. Pretty simple.

[724Skinsfan]

^^ Can we go over that one more time?

[SirClintonPortis]

Yawn. Shanahan is definitely less purist than Zorn. He(or maybe Jeremy Bates) has used more shotgun this year to suit Cutler's strengths(while still incorporating WCO short passing) and has always insisted his QBs sell a good play action fake. Zorn should do more of that for Campbell. just sayin'

[53Fan]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

Generally you pass more when playing from behind. It didn't have anything to do with Zorn trying to open things up. He's not that dumb, with a broken down OL he wasn't trying to open things up just for the sake of showing off his offense. In the 2nd half of the season they were playing from behind more and hence throwing the ball more. Pretty simple.

Plus, since the running game kinda went south, what else were we suppose to do? Punt?

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

Generally you pass more when playing from behind. It didn't have anything to do with Zorn trying to open things up. He's not that dumb, with a broken down OL he wasn't trying to open things up just for the sake of showing off his offense. In the 2nd half of the season they were playing from behind more and hence throwing the ball more. Pretty simple.

Not to be argumentative, but do you have stats to back that up? I dont remember us being from behind any more in the 2nd half than we were in the first. To the contrary, in the first half of the season i remember several games where we came from behind and won games in the 4th quarter.

And I also remember blowing alot of early leads in the 2nd half of the season - specifically, our defense seemed to get tired and cave in when we were trying to hold on to a narrow lead.

What you say makes a nice argument on paper, but i just dont remember the games that way. I think a good way to test your statement (and mine) would be to look at the first quarter of every game in 2008. Generally speaking, whats done in the first quarter would be a good representation of the teams basic philosophy. Unfortunately, i did a google search and couldnt find anywhere that had these stats. Any ideas?