Per Vinny Cerrato, JC is our QB this season!

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Originally Posted by Ruhskins

John Clayton on Jason Campbell (early in the season):


Again, Clayton on Campbell early in the season....


And of course there's what Jaworski was saying about him early in the season...


I think Jaws and Clayton are pretty respected sources.

and they were wrong. Mark Brunell looked like the best QB of all time against Dallas when we had that incredible comeback and during the game against the texans when he set the record for completions... but those were just individual games. You cant judge a QB by one game and you cant judge Campbell by 8. All the Campbell apologists focus on the first 8 games and ignore the last 8...

ask any of those "pretty respected sources" if they still feel "Campbell is the answer" now. I garauntee they would give you a different answer... one that would range anywhere from "undetermined" to "no." If Campbell really was the undisputed answer, then he'd have a new contract already. He doesnt. He was not the MVP of the league. He was not the MVP of the team. He did not go to the pro-bowl. He wasnt an alternate. Hes not on anyones list as one of the top QBs in the league. No respected sources are expecting him to become one this year. Fans HOPE he is... but no one who doest drink burgundy and gold koolaid is expecting it. Everyone else is doubting and watching with curiosity at most. The only real support Campbell gets is from the Washington Post... and I wouldnt be surprised if theyre doing that just to get under Cerratos skin. That should tell us something.

[The Goat]

This thread makes me so pissed I could kick a puppy... to read arguments that JC has an above average line and solid WR corp to work w/ is beyond the pale. He had a very good run-blocking line and a Pro-Bowl RB for 8 games. After that most games looked like the '08 SB... NY's front seven smashing Brady into the turf. The difference... Campbell doesn't complain, but don't be a foolish, the results are nearly the same. QBs who get no time to throw and take a pounding every week (38 sacks on the season and most came in the last 8 games) don't go to the Pro-Bowl.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by skinsfan_nn

Huh..? Now it's the organization's fault for questioning his leadership skills? well if so they do pay the bills and how would you know what they question? Maybe even though your in MI you have some inside track? I don't know who is questioning his leadership skills maybe you do..? But as it appears they are certainly questioning his get it done skills, just like I am. Last year of the contract,right. No extension,right. Usually a pretty good reason for that...right. Coach's and staff for the team know and see what is really going on with a player.

Let me remind you. In case it was before your time. Joe Gibbs WON ALL THREE super bowls Coaching the Washington Redskins with Veteran QB's, all in there 30's. Joe put the best QB in the pocket that he thought would give him the best results. Pretty GREAT results, huh...Hall of Fame. Not bad.

We have a salary cap this year? It's not like there's a rush or anything. We have a franchise tag.

Sorry to have outed you as a Campbell detractor, though. Since you had a really clever disguise going under neutrality.

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

On this level I've gotta admit a level of admiration for BHA, he doesn't mind verbally sparring with the bullies who are kicking him senseless while he's already down, metaphorically speaking.

I dont know what factual evidence i can provide that i havent already. I dont use circular logic. I have an opinion, based on facts. You have an opinion, also based on facts. Which facts we chose to use to support our arguments reinforces our existing beliefs. You reject the arguments I make, exaggerate my position to the extreme to make it look foolish and ive taken similar approaches myself.

I would like nothing more than to be wrong about Campbell, because it would mean:

1) Cerrato and Snyder knew what they were doing when they paired the Square peg and round hole... therefore the franchise is in more capeable hands than we thought.

2) We wont need to go shopping for a QB in 2010 when the market will be thin and we'll be crammed for cap space (Roger Godell thinks the CBA will be extended before 2010).

3) We can probably afford to trade Brennan for picks in 2011.

4) We'll have some freakin' stability at the position for the first time since i cant even remember.

5) Zorn will stay, meaning we wont need to continue the constant merry-go-round coaching turnover that happens every few years... the entire franchise can be stable again.

And all that would be nice... but im just not drinkin the koolaid.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

and they were wrong. Mark Brunell looked like the best QB of all time against Dallas when we had that incredible comeback and during the game against the texans when he set the record for completions... but those were just individual games. You cant judge a QB by one game and you cant judge Campbell by 8. All the Campbell apologists focus on the first 8 games and ignore the last 8...

UHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH...

HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Just give it up. I enjoy back and fourth as much as the next guy, but until you take back statements like Cutler for Campbell + 1st rounder is a steal, the quality of the conversation is just going to devolve.

I may or may not be jumping out of this thread now for good, but it's my personal feeling that the Cutler dialouge has run it's course here. I'd just lock it down/send it to thread hell.

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

We have a salary cap this year? It's not like there's a rush or anything. We have a franchise tag.

Sorry to have outed you as a Campbell detractor, though. Since you had a really clever disguise going under neutrality.

Doubt we can afford to use the tag on Campbell next year if he plays well. Goddell thinks the CBA will be extended and Haynesworth contract was written in such a way that we'll be screwed if '10 is capped. If Campbell plays at a pro-bowl level and theres a salary cap, we wont be able to keep him. If he sucks, we wont want to keep him whether theres a cap or not.

Basically, the only way Campbells our starting QB in 2010 is if the salary cap goes away AND Campbell plays at a pro-bowl level. What are the odds that both things happen?

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

UHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH...

HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Just give it up. I enjoy back and fourth as much as the next guy, but until you take back statements like Cutler for Campbell + 1st rounder is a steal, the quality of the conversation is just going to devolve.

I may or may not be jumping out of this thread now for good, but it's my personal feeling that the Cutler dialouge has run it's course here. I'd just lock it down/send it to thread hell.

1) I dont see how it wouldnt be a steal

2) Im done with the Cutler talk until/unless it seems Denvers going to trade him and there are legitimate reports we're pursuing him.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

I dont know what factual evidence i can provide that i havent already. I dont use circular logic. I have an opinion, based on facts. You have an opinion, also based on facts. Which facts we chose to use to support our arguments reinforces our existing beliefs. You reject the arguments I make, exaggerate my position to the extreme to make it look foolish and ive taken similar approaches myself.

I would like nothing more than to be wrong about Campbell, because it would mean:

1) Cerrato and Snyder knew what they were doing when they paired the Square peg and round hole... therefore the franchise is in more capeable hands than we thought.

2) We wont need to go shopping for a QB in 2010 when the market will be thin and we'll be crammed for cap space (Roger Godell thinks the CBA will be extended before 2010).

3) We can probably afford to trade Brennan for picks in 2011.

4) We'll have some freakin' stability at the position for the first time since i cant even remember.

5) Zorn will stay, meaning we wont need to continue the constant merry-go-round coaching turnover that happens every few years... the entire franchise can be stable again.

And all that would be nice... but im just not drinkin the koolaid.

I've never asked you to slurp the Kool-Aid, dude. Just to try to see what you're doing in perspective. My goal certainly wasn't to make you look foolish, but I think that's been a byproduct of the back and forth we've had.

In reality:

1) Jay Cutler isn't getting traded (the reasons for this are economic in principle, not cap-wise, but like bargaining wise) even though the trade rumors will continue throughout the offseason.
2) Jay Cutler will likely have continued success in the Denver offense
3) Jason Campbell will continue to improve here, just as the offense around him does
4) We'll look back on this thread hilariously in a year, and realize that this debate was a waste of time. Unless the search function breaks, then we'll never see this again.
5) Zorn probably will stay through 2010 at least.

It's somewhat demeaning that you still want to think there were facts used to back your position, and that the trade proposal wasn't totally ludicrous, but don't you worry, I'll get over it.

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

I've never asked you to slurp the Kool-Aid, dude. Just to try to see what you're doing in perspective. My goal certainly wasn't to make you look foolish, but I think that's been a byproduct of the back and forth we've had.

In reality:

1) Jay Cutler isn't getting traded (the reasons for this are economic in principle, not cap-wise, but like bargaining wise) even though the trade rumors will continue throughout the offseason.
2) Jay Cutler will likely have continued success in the Denver offense
3) Jason Campbell will continue to improve here, just as the offense around him does
4) We'll look back on this thread hilariously in a year, and realize that this debate was a waste of time. Unless the search function breaks, then we'll never see this again.
5) Zorn probably will stay through 2010 at least.

I have a feeling if Campbell succeeds here, i'll be eating alot of crow for a long long time. Then again, what happens if he succeeds here but we cant afford to keep him because the Cap doesnt go bye-bye? Do i still eat crow then too?

[Ruhskins]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

and they were wrong. Mark Brunell looked like the best QB of all time against Dallas when we had that incredible comeback and during the game against the texans when he set the record for completions... but those were just individual games. You cant judge a QB by one game and you cant judge Campbell by 8. All the Campbell apologists focus on the first 8 games and ignore the last 8...

ask any of those "pretty respected sources" if they still feel "Campbell is the answer" now. I garauntee they would give you a different answer... one that would range anywhere from "undetermined" to "no." If Campbell really was the undisputed answer, then he'd have a new contract already. He doesnt. He was not the MVP of the league. He was not the MVP of the team. He did not go to the pro-bowl. He wasnt an alternate. Hes not on anyones list as one of the top QBs in the league. No respected sources are expecting him to become one this year. Fans HOPE he is... but no one who doest drink burgundy and gold koolaid is expecting it. Everyone else is doubting and watching with curiosity at most. That should tell you something.

Dude, I'm tired of you. One thing is to doubt the team you follow and hope they do something you think is better. But you're just trying to prove that you are right. I mean what type of "fan" writes long threads talking about how their team's QB is going to fail? People keep pointing out some factual errors on your argument, yet you just dismiss them as nothing. Shit, at least admit some of those mistakes.

- You stated that Jason Campbell has been in the same offense two years in a row (2006-2007 seasons). FACT: Jason Campbell started ONLY 6 games in 2006 and the whole season 2007. That is not two whole seasons. And the whole part is important, because we are talking about continuity and familiarity with the subject.

- You stated that Jason Campbell was not playing at the Pro Bowl level during the first half of the season. FACT: He was playing at a Pro Bowl level during the first 8 games. And respected sports journalists said so AT THAT TIME. Yes, he declined during the second half, for many reasons, however you dismiss JC's good play in those first 8 games because they don't fit with your anti-Campbell threads.

- You make arguments based on your opinion and treat them as facts. And make predictions that you are so certain about them, they sound fanatical. FACT: You and I are fans, not football experts. If you are one, please enlighten us then, but as far as what I know about you, you are not one (and neither am I).

- Finally, you DO realize that as fans we're supposed to drink the Kool Aid? Shit, I'm a big Maryland Terrapins fan, and I had them in the Sweet Sixteen in my bracket, not because it makes sense or I studied tape or I'm freaking Andy Katz, I did it because I'm a fan and as a fan I drink the Kool Aid.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

I have a feeling if Campbell succeeds here, i'll be eating alot of crow for a long long time. Then again, what happens if he succeeds here but we cant afford to keep him because the Cap doesnt go bye-bye? Do i still eat crow then too?

There are only four things that can happen with Campbell's game:

1) Campbell can not improve, in which case we go another direction (the reasons this is almost certain not to happen are numerous, but it requires an accurate understanding of the reason for the statistical decline in Campbell Weeks 10-17 last year)

2) Campbell does improve, but the team is oblivious to this for whatever reason (misses playoffs, etc), and goes another way for bad reasoning (I'm a lot more fearful of this than No. 1)

3) Campbell improves, and we extend or tag him. Basically, if he becomes our franchise QB, we keep him, regardless of the cost to us in 2010. (That cost, unfortunately, might be Rogers, worst case)

4) Campbell gets injured and misses 2009. In this case, all bets are off.

No idea if you'll hang around here long enough to eat crow, or whether I'll even care if you do. Seasons a long time away.

[GusFrerotte]

JC is not going to be renewed in 2010 unless he gets us into the playoffs. I think that should be obvious by now. Guy isn't all that. That being said he isn't a bad QB by a long shot. Actually statwise he is above average, but still in the average range. The guy has problems with his mechanics that haven't been corrected for the most part and to me still hasn't really taken on the leadership position we were expecting him to take(This is Portis' team). On top of that he doesn't have the greatest talent to work with with regards to the WR corp. When your best receiver is your TE, you are hurting. I can't see Danny spending a wad of dough to retain this guy as a backup if he falters this season. I also do not envision Brennan to be our "savior" either. The kid played in a pussy league and when he played a bigtime team he got trounced. THat being said, our scouting personnel better start concentrating on QBs in the '10,'11, or even '12 drafts because we are going to need them badly.

[GusFrerotte]

Originally Posted by The Goat

This thread makes me so pissed I could kick a puppy... to read arguments that JC has an above average line and solid WR corp to work w/ is beyond the pale. He had a very good run-blocking line and a Pro-Bowl RB for 8 games. After that most games looked like the '08 SB... NY's front seven smashing Brady into the turf. The difference... Campbell doesn't complain, but don't be a foolish, the results are nearly the same. QBs who get no time to throw and take a pounding every week (38 sacks on the season and most came in the last 8 games) don't go to the Pro-Bowl.

JC didn't exactly help himself either Goat. I don't think he should be ragged on super heavily for sure, but he wasn't exactly lighting it up during the 6-2 run. We were winning, but not by much. We made Detroit look decent even. I could have swallowed JC throwing a few picks in return for half a dozen TDs during that 6-2 run. At least we would look like a somewhat efficient offense.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by GusFrerotte

JC didn't exactly help himself either Goat. I don't think he should be ragged on super heavily for sure, but he wasn't exactly lighting it up during the 6-2 run. We were winning, but not by much. We made Detroit look decent even. I could have swallowed JC throwing a few picks in return for half a dozen TDs during that 6-2 run. At least we would look like a somewhat efficient offense.

The Moss TD after he shook the unblocked guy was crazy awesome.

And, yeah, it was the Lions, but he did throw for 350 or something that day.

[Ruhskins]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

The Moss TD after he shook the unblocked guy was crazy awesome.

And, yeah, it was the Lions, but he did throw for 350 or something that day.

Stop drinking the Kool Aid maaaan. LOL. :smashfrea