Campbell's numbers dont lie

[Paintrain]

Originally Posted by SBXVII

DMV, I have agreed with you on many of topics in the past, but honestly I think I found one I can say I disagree with you on.

People say he doesn't have a quick release.
It's not just us fans friend it's Zorn also. He has stated JC needs to get the ball out faster. One would think the designer of the master scheme would know best.

Zorn has also stated he's gotten much better and faster with his release.

Originally Posted by SBXVII

You can't have a quick release when no one is open.
I actually believe this is Hixon's fault. He's a failure at WR coach.

JC can't read defenses.
I'll believe this until I'm dead. Maybe it's because he's under center and can't survey the field as well but he seems to change into the wrong play way to many times. In shot gun he's not as bad.

Please define "can't read defenses". Typically someone who cannot read defenses throws a high number of interceptions (see Patrick Ramsey) because he's throwing into coverages. How do we know that he changes into the wrong play too many times? If anything, Zorn has praised him for checking into and out of plays when the defense calls for it. His major error was checking to the run on 3rd and 7 vs. NYG but that's one occurence, please cite some others.

Originally Posted by SBXVII

He lead his team to a national championship in college.
I credit him for this. I have supported him all the way up until last week. I am now thinking he never would have been drafted had we not picked him up. If JC and Daniels both came out of the same draft we would have cut JC, I have no doubt. Right now we have too much invested in him to simply cut him.

WHAT?? So a player that was projected to be a low 1st or high 2nd round pick now wouldn't have been drafted AT ALL??? Seriously? C'mon dude, bring a logical premise to the table. The lack of credibility around here with some posts is astounding. It really indicates that some people actually know NOTHING about football.

Originally Posted by SBXVII

-Thomas drops a TD pass
-Sellers drops a TD pass
-Zorn calls a HB option play
-We try to run the ball in at the goal line on 2 separate occasions
-Moss fumbles in the redzone
I don't think any one would disagree with you on the fact that other players are not doing their part, but that's only half the truth.
-JC over throwing Kelly
-JC throwing a dirt ball to Cooley
-JC over throwing ARE
-JC throwing the ball behind his receivers all the time while in route
-JC waiting for his receivers to get out of their breaks and come to a complete stop before getting the pass off
-etc. etc.

Show me a QB that hasn't over or under thrown multiple over the span of a few games. Campbell has his flaws, mechanics and accuracy are among them, but you have to take the balance.

Originally Posted by SBXVII

Personally I like JC. I think he has a strong arm and can get the ball down field. I'm not sure of his accuracy but he can get the ball down field.

Have any of you known someone who could take a test and ace it? be the #1 person for the job, but when you put them in a real live situation they can't perform? this is how I see JC. I know the whole "stat" issue will be brought up cause everyone likes stat's. Apparently that's the measuring stick around here. but there's more to playing football then stats. Most of Gibbs1 QB's would never have stayed in the NFL. Most of his QB's were mediocre and had lower percentages then most of the other top ten teams in the league. Guess who Gibbs1 won SB's with. Guess who out classed, out performed other QB's. Maybe I'm making a case for you but I'm also trying to point out that he could have the best stats and still suck as a QB. No different then being the best QB in the league and having crappy stats.

Ok, who would you consider to be Campbell's peers in the league? He's not at the level of Manning, Brees, Brady, etc. nor is he at the depth of Russell, Quinn, Leftwich. So who would you compare him to on the same plane?

Originally Posted by SBXVII

Right now my issue is the team needs a spark. Maybe simply benching a player or two will wake up this team. I know Collins is not the answer. If he was he would be #1 QB right now. but....he does have a quick release, he does know how to get the ball out while the WR is coming out of his break, and if we are going to throw interceptions why not do it with a QB who's doing what he supposed to do with the ball then we can look at the WR's and wonder why they were not in position. Instead of wondering if it's JC's fault, the WR's fault, the O-lines fault, or the HC's fault.

I think we have too many problems as of right now. Motivation is low. Players may be trying too hard. I don't know but when I see Atlanta and Baltimore and Miami bring in new HC's and they do well and all three go into the play offs and we did not I got miffed. This year it was the New Jersey and Detroit, now I'm not saying either will make the play offs but so far the Jets have been putting up more then 20 points in their games and the Lions just kicked our asses on both sides of the ball. I know the points don't show it. This is not Zorn's first yr and we are not supposed to be trying to find an identity at this point. We are supposed to already have it. Yet the other 4 teams look better then us. So yes I'm miffed at everyone not just JC.

I went to sleep last night as happy as a clam thinking how nice it would be to have DS eat some crow and bring in Marty Schottenheimer as GM and Brian Schottenheimer as HC turning our two stud WR's into 1,000 yrd each WR's. Making Mason or Alridge or whoever a 1,000 yrd RB like he has in Jersey the last 2 yrs. I picture an offense that can score at will and a defense that creates 3 and outs constantly with sacks and interceptions. Guess what? I got to sleep fast and had a restfull night.

[KLHJ2]

Originally Posted by over the mountain

JC played very well against the lions, he played well against the rams and did not play well against the giants.

JC's stats are in line for him to set career marks but lets not ignore JC's past stats and claim the 3 games of stats he has this year (with a huge portion of positive stats coming against the lions, rams and last 2 mins against the giants) should end all talk of JC not being more than a serviceable decent qb.

we can talk stats at the middle or end of the year; it was the lions, the freakin LIONS, and the JC lovers trot his stat sheet out like they have the cure to cancer.

let see how he looks at seasons end and talk stats. taking one or two games now and ignoring his past 20+ games doesnt seem genuine to me is your a stat lover. seems too selective to focus on one segment of numbers (3 games) and one portion of stats and not comparing them to the whole.

if the JC lovers can start this thread as an end all to the qb debate after he looked great against the lions can the JC bashers start a thread calling for his release after he looks crappy against a top 5 defense? i'd say no to both.

i dont understand either party here. he throws 1 td pass = hallelujah i told them guys JC is our man . . . he throws 1 int = gosh dangit this team is going nowhere with JC at the helm.

go skins!!

ps - this comes off as an "i told you so" thread, i dont want to hear any complaining when JC has a bad game and the JC bashers make their own thread.

That was an absoluty brilliant post. I like your objective observations on the whole QB controversy.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by over the mountain

lol are you going to tell that JC having the 19th best qb rating last year = great qb? seeems about avg to me, even slightly below avg for mathematicians.

or that he ranked 19th last year in pass yds and he played every game/snap versus other qbs who didnt even play every game.

look man, i like JC but i find it annoying that JC lovers trot out his stats after he looked good against the lions and rams and ignore everything else stat related. i can clearly see where the JC bashers are coming from and why they think that way. to question or attack skins fans who dont believe in JC is just being ignorant to a fault by JC lovers.

i say this alot, JC does enough things well and poorly to give both sides ammunition to fire at each other.

go skins!!

ps those 19th ranked qb stats are Jcs best year too, just imagine where he would rank if he totaled up his career stats and compared them.

If you feel there's a statistical angle that reflects negatively on Jason, you should try to bring it up using specific evidence so we can move the thread in an intelligent manner.

If all you're saying is that the statistics say that Jason Campbell, in the Redskins offense, prior to this year has ranked in the 15-20 range among quarterbacks, well, yeah, I'd say that's 100% correct. If you're interpreting that as he can't be trusted with a bigger role, well, please tell us why.

[Trample the Elderly]

Campbell's numbers don't lie but neither does the score board.

[Rajmahal33]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

Since you use size to emphasize points you deem important I figured I'd follow your path. Obviously you don't understand the nature of the WCO. The WCO is built on short passes and RAC/YAC. That is the entire premise of the WCO. If you see the WCO tree we are a direct branch of, Walsh (short passes and YAC) to Holmgren (short passes and YAC) to Zorn (short passes and YAC). It's really hard to take you seriously when your logic is so fundamentally flawed.

I have never seen anyone on this board call JC an elite or great QB, but the other spectrum has been amazing. To read it around here and other places, you'd think he's the second coming of Heath Shuler.


I'm pretty sure Carolina, St. Louis, SF, Oakland, Cleveland, Buffalo and TB would consider him an immediate upgrade to what they have. Which brings up another point. If Campbell leaves next year, who do you propose becomes the starter? Please spare me with the injured 3rd stringer who barely held onto his roster spot thanks to the aforementioned injury.

Paintrain (and whoever else thinks that I'm sayin JC is THE problem). I AM NOT!

I was responding to Matty's point that JC has turned over a new leaf and is not just throwing short passes. I was refuting that (with a little bit of statistical anaylsis, b/c its a slow day at work) and trying to prove that he STILL throws short passes to account for most of his production. He's playing within the WCO system. Thats what is expected of him...that's fine.

However while playing within the system in a WCO, ur completion percentages will go up b/c u aren't taking as many risks. Because of this, I was just rationalizing why JC was ranked so high in completion percentages and yards compared to elite QB's, even though our offense has disproportionately played so poorly (especially at scoring TD's).

I don't need you or anyone else to explain to me the concept of a WCO...btw u glaringly left out one basic principle of the WCO. Dominate Time of Possession, which the skins have not in our two losses. (A possible reason why our defense has underperformed)

[Paintrain]

Originally Posted by over the mountain

lol are you going to tell that JC having the 19th best qb rating last year = great qb? seeems about avg to me, even slightly below avg for mathematicians.

or that he ranked 19th last year in pass yds and he played every game/snap versus other qbs who didnt even play every game.

look man, i like JC but i find it annoying that JC lovers trot out his stats after he looked good against the lions and rams and ignore everything else stat related. i can clearly see where the JC bashers are coming from and why they think that way. to question or attack skins fans who dont believe in JC is just being ignorant to a fault by JC lovers.

i say this alot, JC does enough things well and poorly to give both sides ammunition to fire at each other.

go skins!!

ps those 19th ranked qb stats are Jcs best year too, just imagine where he would rank if he totaled up his career stats and compared them.

Please show me ANYWHERE that I have claimed JC is great. I'm begging you to find it. You won't because I (nor anyone I've seen) has claimed he is great. You will find 3 common themes among 'JC lovers' as you call them.

1. Campbell can be productive and a winner with the right support around him (solid OL, WR, running game).
2. Campbell has continually improved over his career despite all of the changes.
3. Campbell gives us the best chance to win of any QB on the roster.

You'll be hard pressed to find any 'JC lovers' claim much more than that but the 'JC bashers' come across as if he's the worst QB to step onto the field.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

I'd love to see some stats picked apart from other QBs so we can see who else is not really "elite".

By the way I never said he was elite or even great, just good, and better than some are willing to give him credit for, that's all.

And again, ultimately my argument on all of this is our problems run much deeper than JC.

Exact same argument against Campbell can be applied to Tom Brady prior to 2007, as well as this year. You could basically point out that the guy has just been a one year wonder.

I mean, these people absolutely could do that, with the conviction they've showed.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Angry

That was an absoluty brilliant post. I like your objective observations on the whole QB controversy.

It was a brilliant strawman when he accused a whole half of the fourm of claiming that Campbell was oozing greatness.

[SBXVII]

Originally Posted by GreekSkin

I fully understand your point that stats arent everything but lets not go too far. There is no such thing as one of the best qb's with the worst stats. These things go hand in hand. During the Gibbs 1.0 years no one can argue that those teams werent more talented, better coached, and had a greater sense of motivation than the current team or any team JC has been on. It's much easier to play QB and be succesful when everyone around you is succesful.

If I'm not mistaken Theisman usually had a 60% or 70% rating during the season. Compared to some of the others he always looked bad. But he got the job done, and yes they did have good coaching....which I think they are lacking.

[over the mountain]

lol maybe thats the problem with this whole JC debate. it seems most of us (me included) think JC is a good qb, not great but good. somehow we are dividing ourselves by exagerating what other posters are saying.

could he become great? im not sure as i fall into the category of fans who think he doesnt read D schemes well pre-snap which i think is a necessary requirement to be a great qb like manning or brady. imo JC looks best when his first option is open. if zorn doesnt call the perfect play and JCs first option is covered, our best bet is to have JC check down to cooley. while i like JC i would like to have a qb that can know where to go with the ball if his 1st option is covered, a lil better anticipation of how the play is going to unfold.

lol half this board accuses the other side of saying JC oozes greatness, the other half accuses the other side of saying JC is the worst qb of all time. but in reality, most of us think JC is good and he is our best option this year.

go skins!!

[Rajmahal33]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

Please show me ANYWHERE that I have claimed JC is great. I'm begging you to find it. You won't because I (nor anyone I've seen) has claimed he is great. You will find 3 common themes among 'JC lovers' as you call them.

1. Campbell can be productive and a winner with the right support around him (solid OL, WR, running game).
2. Campbell has continually improved over his career despite all of the changes.
3. Campbell gives us the best chance to win of any QB on the roster.

You'll be hard pressed to find any 'JC lovers' claim much more than that but the 'JC bashers' come across as if he's the worst QB to step onto the field.

First of all, I'm not saying you are a "JC lover" or anything like that. Of those 3 points that JC defenders use, only 1 is true... #3

1) With a solid OL, WR corps, and running game, most QB's in the NFL are going to be "productive" and most likely "a winner" (esp with the type of defense we have)

2) The "all of the changes" argument is starting to get old. If these are professionals playing a professional (all year) sport, they need to be able to learn offenses. This is not a valid excuse anymore.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by over the mountain

lol maybe thats the problem with this whole JC debate. it seems most of us (me included) think JC is a good qb, not great but good. somehow we are dividing ourselves by exagerating what other posters are saying.

could he become great? im not sure as i fall into the category of fans who think he doesnt read D schemes well pre-snap which i think is a necessary requirement to be a great qb like manning or brady. imo JC looks best when his first option is open. if zorn doesnt call the perfect play and JCs first option is covered, our best bet is to have JC check down to cooley. while i like JC i would like to have a qb that can know where to go with the ball if his 1st option is covered, a lil better anticipation of how the play is going to unfold.

lol half this board accuses the other side of saying JC oozes greatness, the other half accuses the other side of saying JC is the worst qb of all time. but in reality, most of us think JC is good and he is our best option this year.

go skins!!

Well that was my point. I think he's done great, under the circumstances, but overall, I'd agree that he hasn't met expectations. Mine or anyone elses apparently. That's not his fault, but it's a reality.

If he continues to toss for near 8.0 YPA this year, that's in line with the best years that Ben Roethlisberger or Tom Brady have ever had. But his career stats say he won't keep up on this current pace. The season is plenty young.

But I mean, a lot of people are completely oblivious to what he ACTUALLY IS doing. And that's the reason the debate is even happening. Because he is performing, and people are commenting that they don't even know how anyone could say Campbell is doing well.

Efficiency wise, he's in the best three game stretch of his career. Nothing states that it has to continue, or that he won't throw up a stinker against Tampa, or that his fumbles won't cost the team another victory or two down the road. Being a quarterback is about more than just passing. But it's plain as day that the guy is an NFL caliber passer, and some people are running out the same stupid arguments.

You are not one of those people, but that doesn't mean that people should not be accountable for what they write, even on the internet. Those who write stupid crap here, are probably stupid in real life. I believe that's the truth. Not to jump on you for moderating on anything, but even the anti-JC crowd should be able to see a good passing game when one exists. If they can't...then don't comment at all.

[GTripp0012]

My rant above is not to be taken as, "if you don't like Jason Campbell, you must be a two bit moron." No, I actually think the jury is still out on him, and will be until the offense as a whole comes together around him.

But just take the facts for what they are. My god. Don't find 100 million reasons to dispute what can be just taken for granted.

[SBXVII]

Pain,

Zorn has also stated he's gotten much better and faster with his release
I thought Zorn commented on this after the Rams game also. Yes the release is faster but I don't think it's where Zorn would like it. but I still think the WR issue's go hand in hand with JC's issues. Maybe bringing in a qualified WR coach would make JC look outstanding.

Please define "can't read defenses". Typically someone who cannot read defenses throws a high number of interceptions (see Patrick Ramsey) because he's throwing into coverages. How do we know that he changes into the wrong play too many times? If anything, Zorn has praised him for checking into and out of plays when the defense calls for it. His major error was checking to the run on 3rd and 7 vs. NYG but that's one occurence, please cite some others.
Maybe I am an idiot. I don't know if he's changing into the wrong play too many time. You are correct. I'll retract my statement, but it's my feelings when after you see a change at the line and the play fails then the camera pans to Zorn fuming on the sideline....just my observation. As to reading defenses, again just my feelings/observations since he's been with the organization. He fails to pick up the rush or where it's coming from. Fails to change into a more productive play call perhaps a quick slant (like those other top QB's you named) or move to the shot gun to buy more time.

WHAT?? So a player that was projected to be a low 1st or high 2nd round pick now wouldn't have been drafted AT ALL???
I didn't know he was projected so high. Hmm. I might have to change my way of thinking.

Show me a QB that hasn't over or under thrown multiple over the span of a few games. Campbell has his flaws, mechanics and accuracy are among them, but you have to take the balance.
I agree with you here. Other have over thrown their receivers. I just wonder why after 5 yrs with Moss, 4 with ARE, 1 with Thomas and Kelly he can't be more on the money with his passes. Even Cooley, who is his favorite receiver has to grab the ball from behind or make finger tip grabbs all the time. Why can't the ball be placed so the receivers can continue with their flow of running their routes? It seems most of his passes that are connecting are passes where the receiver sat down into a zone and waited for the ball.

Ok, who would you consider to be Campbell's peers in the league? He's not at the level of Manning, Brees, Brady, etc. nor is he at the depth of Russell, Quinn, Leftwich. So who would you compare him to on the same plane?
This is obviously where one must use stats. Go look for your self but I'm guessing Cutler would be one. I don't see Cutler as being anything special either. Since you brought up the other names though ...they were first round drafts...no different then JC. Yet you are saying he's not in their league.

[SBXVII]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

Please show me ANYWHERE that I have claimed JC is great. I'm begging you to find it. You won't because I (nor anyone I've seen) has claimed he is great. You will find 3 common themes among 'JC lovers' as you call them.

1. Campbell can be productive and a winner with the right support around him (solid OL, WR, running game).
2. Campbell has continually improved over his career despite all of the changes.
3. Campbell gives us the best chance to win of any QB on the roster.

You'll be hard pressed to find any 'JC lovers' claim much more than that but the 'JC bashers' come across as if he's the worst QB to step onto the field.

I'm not saying that. I too think he's the best athletic QB we have. He can make the long passes. He can scramble which Collins can't.

Like I said before part of our problem is our WR's coach Hixon who has failed misserably as a coach finding a way to get the WR's open for JC to throw the ball to. How come other teams make it look so easy to get the ball to their WR's? They don't have all day to throw. They have the same 3-5 seconds to get the ball out that we do. So I ask you whats the difference? I think the whole passing issue goes hand in hand, in other words I'm blaming JC and the WR's. I know the O-line has not been stellar but they have given JC enough time to get rid of the ball. Maybe our WR's need 10-15 seconds to get into position...I don't know. but it's hand in hand.

On a side note I see QB's like Delome throwing a ball out there like JC does and his WR's make the play on the ball. I think our WR's think the ball must simply fall into their hands with out any one getting in the way. I'd just like to see the WR's just battle for the ball once and a while.