Per Vinny Cerrato, JC is our QB this season!

[cwsimps]

Cutlers 1st 5 games in the west coast: 2-3
JC's: 4-1

CUtlers TD's to INT's: 9-5
Campbells: 6-0

I wuld stick with JC anyday

[cwsimps]

If only one of our three second rounders steps up next year, all if this JC talk will finally be put to rest.

[GMScud]

Clipped from Redskins Insider:

The Jay Cutler Speculation: We continue to hear nothing tangible about this "trade" whatsoever. Vinny Cerrato has denied it up and down, not just to the media but to football people around the league. He's also denied it to agents for some Redskins players, according to league sources, some of whom could be potentially directly affected by the alleged swap(s). It's one thing to be less that truthful with the media and fans, and quite another to do so with people you hope to maintain an ongoing business relationship with.

Make no mistake, there was some chatter going around the league earlier this week, unsubstantiated talk and not backed up by fact (the kind of gossip that is a part of any business/corporation/league), that the Skins had a thing for the Denver QB. But it's quite another to report the inner workings of alleged three-way blockbuster deals as if they are potentially imminent. And, again, fitting a guy like Cutler under the cap, and absorbing massive cap hits from dealing guys like Chris Cooley, at a time when you only have the space to offer vet minimum deals for potential starters, is still something that seems impossible and render such deals as nonstarters.


It's just not gonna happen folks.

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Originally Posted by GMScud

Clipped from Redskins Insider:

The Jay Cutler Speculation: We continue to hear nothing tangible about this "trade" whatsoever. Vinny Cerrato has denied it up and down, not just to the media but to football people around the league. He's also denied it to agents for some Redskins players, according to league sources, some of whom could be potentially directly affected by the alleged swap(s). It's one thing to be less that truthful with the media and fans, and quite another to do so with people you hope to maintain an ongoing business relationship with.

Make no mistake, there was some chatter going around the league earlier this week, unsubstantiated talk and not backed up by fact (the kind of gossip that is a part of any business/corporation/league), that the Skins had a thing for the Denver QB. But it's quite another to report the inner workings of alleged three-way blockbuster deals as if they are potentially imminent. And, again, fitting a guy like Cutler under the cap, and absorbing massive cap hits from dealing guys like Chris Cooley, at a time when you only have the space to offer vet minimum deals for potential starters, is still something that seems impossible and render such deals as nonstarters.


It's just not gonna happen folks.

Why are you quoting an article we discussed days ago as if its new? As i already pointed out, Gibbs, Snyder and Cerrato all denied we would draft Campbell and declared that Ramsey was our QB of the future. Then they drafted Campbell. Just last year, Cerrato categorically denied we would pursue Jason Taylor. Hours later, Taylor was a Redskin. And to top it off, recent history suggests JLC is wrong far more often than he is right. Redskins park deliberatly leaks false information to him all the time.... nothing in the blog you quoted changes anything. The skins are not more or less likely to pursue Cutler. I would be shocked if they, along with alteast a dozen other teams, arent trying to do something to get Cutler to be honest. You cant beleive anything the front office says anymore than you should beleive anything a politician says when trying to get elected.

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

I wasn't aware we had a pro bowl receiver last year. Perhaps we're not watching the same team.

Can you at least try to leave things in context? I mean, what are you trying to say when you argue that a Cutler for Campbell and a first round pick is actually just Cutler for a first round pick? You are purely speculating that Campbell won't be here next year (2010). If you are predicting that, fine, just don't extrapolate that to the next level and say he has zero value in a trade that actually involves him.

Your argument has zero basis in reality. Read through it again. It's based on like four different unlikelyhoods/unsupported statements:

1) Campbell is a bad fit for our system
2) Anyone who makes one pro-bowl automatically becomes "proven."
3) Campbell has no trade value...let's trade him!
4) Cutler is a winner, despite all evidence to the contrary

And then there's the one false statement, that Campbell has a great supporting cast. Samuels is our best lineman, but he only played in 12 games last year, and about 7 of those, he was hurt. Cooley is our best offensive player, but he had a rough year last year. Portis had a heck of a half season, but I'm not sure how that helps the passing game. Sellers had a nice year receiving passes, but that only happened like 15 times all year.

Meanwhile, once you look deeper than pro-bowls, you have Moss and Randle El, who are very underwhelming as a receiving tandem, an offensive line that includes Rabach and Jansen, not to mention R. Thomas' horiffic year, started Jason Fabini for two weeks at RT, and started Stephon Heyer for 7 weeks, and oh yeah, had the worst set of third receivers in the entire NFL.

are you serious? worst set of third receivers in the NFL. Since you criticize me for not qualifying my statements, how do you qualify that?

Youve taken everything ive said out of context. Its widely accepted that Campbell is a bad fit for our system and ive argued that point in various threads. You talk about our team as if its complete garbage, but its not. Its a very average team overall, but certainly a better team than Denver. I said Campbell had no value to US because we will most certainly let him walk next year... he has value to other teams running other systems, which is why we could get something for him now. And what evidence do you have that Cutler is not a winner? hes a great quarterback on a horrible team who made his teammates look better. Contrast that with Campbell - an average quarterback on an average team who doesnt fit the system and doesnt make anyone around him better. Cutler would be a better fit for this team.

[The Goat]

JC is more valuable to the Washington Redskins than he is to any other franchise in football. He's the only starting caliber QB to have played under Zorn's system... ever. He also is becoming the leader of this offense and personally I think by opening day his status will be solidified. But most importantly as we speak JC and Zorn are scheming, strategizing and tweaking the playbook and Jason's game to maximize potential. Jason was solid when the o-line protected him, and that was w/ minimal experience in the new offense. This year, if we continue to upgrade the line and get better performance from the WR corp, Jason Campbell will be the out and out shit.

... it almost baffles me anyone thinks a brand new QB would automatically outperform JC under the reality of our circumstances. A crumbled, old, slow, small offensive line and WRs who somehow manage to drop EVERY OTHER FRIGGIN PASS THAT TOUCHES THEIR HANDS... i think most NFL QBs, including Cutler, would have long ago thrown everyone else under the bus in frustration. Some would likely have asked for a trade. Jason is a character guy... he's stuck it out under grueling circumstances, taking heavyweight shots through the entire 2nd half of last season, and yet he always stays in there and carries himself like a professional.

... honest to God if the FO traded him right now I'd have to believe Vinny is an insane person.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

Youve taken everything ive said out of context. Its widely accepted that Campbell is a bad fit for our system and ive argued that point in various threads. You talk about our team as if its complete garbage, but its not. Its a very average team overall, but certainly a better team than Denver. I said Campbell had no value to US because we will most certainly let him walk next year... he has value to other teams running other systems, which is why we could get something for him now. And what evidence do you have that Cutler is not a winner? hes a great quarterback on a horrible team who made his teammates look better. Contrast that with Campbell - an average quarterback on an average team who doesnt fit the system and doesnt make anyone around him better. Cutler would be a better fit for this team.

The problem is not that you're wrong on this issue, or that I'm wrong on this issue, it's that you seem to be totally out of touch with reality.

First point: FACT - Campbell had better numbers under Zorn than under Saunders.

Spending a lot of time repeating oneself doesn't make you any more right, if in fact, there is no element of incompatibility between Campbell and Zorn. I know this is a fundamental belief of yours, but its at best, not necessarily right (or wrong). You have to realize that if you want to make sense. It's not something you can use to prove anything else, because you can't establish that it actually exists.

Common knowledge does not prove this because it is not widely believed.

Second point: I jumped into this thread with a few simplistic regressions on Campbell's numbers, and then Cutlers. I linked you to thier pfr pages in an attempt to show that they're pretty similar. Cutler's been more efficient to date. But, they're close. They both have promising numbers, but neither has "accomplished" anything that would lead you to believe they are established.

FACT - If Campbell is not established, then Cutler is not established. Any argument for one over the other is based in their perceived potential.

Third point: You committ logical fallacies out the ying yang. This is because the evidence doesn't support your position. So 16-20, 80.4 career passer Jason Campbell becomes "just average". While 17-20, 87.1 career passer Jay Cutler becomes "a great quarterback". You are using designations to manipulate reality to fit your description of it. That's a logical fallacy.

Keep in mind that we're not arguing in utopian terms, "which man would you rather have at quarterback?" You've actually stated that a 16-20, 80.4 QB AND A FIRST ROUND PICK for a 17-20, 87.1 QB would be the steal trade of the century. Um, holy crap. Well, gee, of course there's no evidence to defend that statement! I'm guessing if we actually did that, there'd be a Fire Vinny petition at least 20,000 signitures deep within an hour. But apparently, that's the steal of the century. We just don't know it.

Fourth point: What players does Washington have on it's offense that are better than league average at their position? Cooley, for one. Portis, is another. Sellers is above league average, but he plays less than a third receiver. Chris Samuels is still above average. Randle El is above average as far as 2nd receivers go, but he's not going to make a WR corps by himself. Also, Campbell, but you'd have to get your head out of Jay Cutler's rear to see that.

That's it. That's all the above average players on our offense.

Meanwhile, Denver has Tony Sheffler whose an above average TE. They have Ryan Clady at LT, who had a great rookie year. Casey Wiegmann is above average for a C. Chris Kuper and Ben Hamilton have been an excellent young Guard combo for them. That's 4/5 of the line. You could argue either way on Marshall or Royal being above average, I'm not going to dispute it either way. The running backs are just a revolving door though, they don't have a Portis type player (anymore).

It's pretty clear that Cutler has the better supporting cast, offensively. Yeah, his defense sucks. Yes, that makes a difference, especially in the record. But you have to at least try to acknoledge how that has affected the QB rating discrepancy.

Or you could continue with the pseudo analysis, and claiming common knowledge a day after saying "even though 99%" of you won't agree with me.

are you serious? worst set of third receivers in the NFL. Since you criticize me for not qualifying my statements, how do you qualify that?

FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Football analysis and NFL stats for the Moneyball era - Authors of Pro Football Prospectus 2008

Sorry, second worst. Tennessee actually threw at Justin McCareins 73 times for his 30 catches. Although, he was a starting receiver, somehow.

[BigHairedAristocrat]

Originally Posted by The Goat

JC is more valuable to the Washington Redskins than he is to any other franchise in football. He's the only starting caliber QB to have played under Zorn's system... ever. He also is becoming the leader of this offense and personally I think by opening day his status will be solidified. But most importantly as we speak JC and Zorn are scheming, strategizing and tweaking the playbook and Jason's game to maximize potential. Jason was solid when the o-line protected him, and that was w/ minimal experience in the new offense. This year, if we continue to upgrade the line and get better performance from the WR corp, Jason Campbell will be the out and out shit.

... it almost baffles me anyone thinks a brand new QB would automatically outperform JC under the reality of our circumstances. A crumbled, old, slow, small offensive line and WRs who somehow manage to drop EVERY OTHER FRIGGIN PASS THAT TOUCHES THEIR HANDS... i think most NFL QBs, including Cutler, would have long ago thrown everyone else under the bus in frustration. Some would likely have asked for a trade. Jason is a character guy... he's stuck it out under grueling circumstances, taking heavyweight shots through the entire 2nd half of last season, and yet he always stays in there and carries himself like a professional.

... honest to God if the FO traded him right now I'd have to believe Vinny is an insane person.

I guess everyone has different opinions. Personally, im 99% sure that Zorn and Campbell are not scheming anything on a Sunday evening in March... As to Jasons value to this organizations, as of right now, he IS the quarterback and the QB is the single most important position on the team, so youre right, hes valuable. His success or failure in Zorns system this year is the most significant factor in whether this team has short and long-term success.

You criticize our offensive line, but you evidently are unaware that it was one of the better offensive lines in football last year (By better I mean top 16). I dont know why some people find this hard to understand, so let me break it down to you -

Quarterbacks like Campbell are only successful in offenses with strong running games and extremely good pass-protecting offensive lineman. Why? Because Jason Campbell has (and has always had) a problem holding on to the ball too long. It was one of his biggest problems coming out of college and its his biggest problem now. Campbell will never ever be successful behind an o-line that is anything less than top5. Campbell has an incredible arm and deadly accuracy with his longball - but if an offensive line cannot consistently give him inordinate amounts of time, its of no use.

Quarterbacks like Cutler (and other prototypical WCO QBs) dont have strong arms like Campbell. They dont always have the deadly accurate deepball. What they do have, on the other hand, is the ability to get the ball out of their hands quickly. What they do have is the ability to make quick decisions. Campbell has struggled with these things his entire career, at the college and professional level. Gibbs and Saunders systems were well suited for someone like Campbell. Zorns is not. Pairing Zorn and Campbell together was an incredibly foolish decision on Cerratos part. I can understand why he did it (Campbell is everything you want your franchise QB to be in terms of his leadership, attitude, desire to learn, willingness to do whatever is asked of him without complaining, etc), but it was a huge gamble and one that has little chance of working out. We all know Zorn can teach, but Campbell is what he is. He has strengths and he has limitations, like all QBs, but the WCO is a horrible fit for him.

Given our offensive line is just average, and the fact it will take years for it to become elite, and given the fact we are running a WCO that doesnt require a powerful line, the most important thing for this offense to step forward is to have a QB who can make quick decisions, anticipate the receiver making his break, and get rid of the ball quickly - Jay Cutler can do that - look what he did in Denver behind that line (which is far worse than ours).

And please, please please, dont use receiver drops as an excuse. Our WR situation isnt great, but its not utterly horrible either. Every teams receivers drop passes in every game. Its not something thats unique to our team. Its just the lamest of all excuses people make for quarterbacks. People made the same excuses for Ramsey, so its not surprising they are making it now for Campbell. Either way, their careers may very well take very similar paths.

Whether people agree that the skins should pursue Cutler or not (if Brennan has legitimate potential, then theres no reason to rush after Cutler), Campbell is not going anywhere in this offense. He wont singlehandedly lose games for us, but he wont be winning any for us either... not unless Zorn changes his entire offense around to take advantage of Campbells skillset.

[GTripp0012]

To clarify: when I say above average, I mean numbers above the league average in the role they have in the offense. They must have had solid careers, and have posted above average production in either of the last two seasons. That's why I left Moss off, because his last above average season was 2006.

[Ruhskins]

Originally Posted by The Goat

JC is more valuable to the Washington Redskins than he is to any other franchise in football. He's the only starting caliber QB to have played under Zorn's system... ever. He also is becoming the leader of this offense and personally I think by opening day his status will be solidified. But most importantly as we speak JC and Zorn are scheming, strategizing and tweaking the playbook and Jason's game to maximize potential. Jason was solid when the o-line protected him, and that was w/ minimal experience in the new offense. This year, if we continue to upgrade the line and get better performance from the WR corp, Jason Campbell will be the out and out shit.

... it almost baffles me anyone thinks a brand new QB would automatically outperform JC under the reality of our circumstances. A crumbled, old, slow, small offensive line and WRs who somehow manage to drop EVERY OTHER FRIGGIN PASS THAT TOUCHES THEIR HANDS... i think most NFL QBs, including Cutler, would have long ago thrown everyone else under the bus in frustration. Some would likely have asked for a trade. Jason is a character guy... he's stuck it out under grueling circumstances, taking heavyweight shots through the entire 2nd half of last season, and yet he always stays in there and carries himself like a professional.

... honest to God if the FO traded him right now I'd have to believe Vinny is an insane person.

Good post. Folks tend to pick and choose when character becomes a big issue or when it does not. There are all these trade rumors swirling around, and Campbell hasn't said a lick, meanwhile Cutler is throwing a T.O.-like tantrum. When there were talks about Haynesworth, D. Hall, any other player with past issues, people went nuts with the character issue talk. Now because people think that Campbell is the sole problem the Redskins have, they don't care about character. And if there's any position where you don't want a guy with questionable character, is QB.

Honestly, I don't think Cutler and Campbell are that much different as far as talent. If you want to assign a numerical value, Scouts Inc has Campbell rated at 74 and Cutler 75 (highest rating Brady/Manning at 96). They are only two years apart, with Culter being younger of the two. Last year both teams had the chance to go into the playoffs, but they didn't because of deficiencies in their respective teams. I haven't heard anything definite in regards to whether Cutler is a better WC QB than Campbell.

Once again I don't understand the whole fascination with Cutler. I really hope the FO doesn't go through this and these are just rumors.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

Given our offensive line is just average, and the fact it will take years for it to become elite, and given the fact we are running a WCO that doesnt require a powerful line, the most important thing for this offense to step forward is to have a QB who can make quick decisions, anticipate the receiver making his break, and get rid of the ball quickly - Jay Cutler can do that - look what he did in Denver behind that line (which is far worse than ours).

LOL!

Oh man.

You know who had the best run-blocking line in the league last year by A(djusted)L(ine)Y(ards)?

Denver.

You know who's line gave up a sack on 3% of QB dropbacks, second best (4th adjusted for opponent quality) in the NFL?

Denver.

FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Football analysis and NFL stats for the Moneyball era - Authors of Pro Football Prospectus 2008

I don't disagree that people think the problem with our OL is over-publicized, and that we're closer to the median line than people think, and that it's not a huge reason for our offensive failures (compared to the receiving), but c'mon, you're obviously just making stuff up now.

[53Fan]

There seems to be a lot of FACT vs OPINION in this thread. I gotta go with the facts fellas. As far as making the Pro Bowl goes, the fact that Phillip Rivers had a higher QB rating, better comp.%, threw for over 4000 yards, and had a better TD/INT ratio than Cutler, but did not make it, should tell you all you need to know about that.

[GMScud]

Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat

Why are you quoting an article we discussed days ago as if its new? As i already pointed out, Gibbs, Snyder and Cerrato all denied we would draft Campbell and declared that Ramsey was our QB of the future. Then they drafted Campbell. Just last year, Cerrato categorically denied we would pursue Jason Taylor. Hours later, Taylor was a Redskin. And to top it off, recent history suggests JLC is wrong far more often than he is right. Redskins park deliberatly leaks false information to him all the time.... nothing in the blog you quoted changes anything. The skins are not more or less likely to pursue Cutler. I would be shocked if they, along with alteast a dozen other teams, arent trying to do something to get Cutler to be honest. You cant beleive anything the front office says anymore than you should beleive anything a politician says when trying to get elected.

I agree we shouldn't believe everything Vinny says, nor do I think JLC is anything close to a great source these days. But care to explain how we're going to afford the trade should it happen? Money-wise it really doesn't seem possible.

[GMScud]

We should re-name this thread "GTripp PWNEs BigHair"

[MTK]

Originally Posted by GMScud

We should re-name this thread "GTripp PWNEs BigHair"

Seriously, good night Irene