Redskins trade for Jason Taylor (updated)

[skinsnut]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

I think it makes our defense significantly better this year. Daniels wasn't very good at all against the run last year, and though Taylor isn't an improvement in that respect, he will bring plenty of additional pass rush that we wouldn't have had otherwise.

If we make the playoffs this year, I think the move will justify itself. If we don't make the playoffs, then it probably wasn't a good idea. There's no doubt we're a better team now than we were yesterday, but better doesn't mean we become favorites in the division or anything.

I sometimes agree with you Tripp...but this one kinda confuses me.
Can you tell us if this is your opinion or fact?
Hell...they put him at DT...and that job is almost exclusively stopping the run.

[hail_2_da_skins]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

This one.

Where I come from, the concept of depth means that when your team sustains injuries, you turn over to your depth and ask them to play a bigger role for you.

The Redskins, on the other hand, turn to their depth and say, "Demetric, you know we like you and all, it's just that...we'd much rather forfeit the entire season than see you at LDE on opening night. Keep doing your thing, buddy."


Are you telling me that Demetric Evans isn't capable of being a decent two down player in the NFL? If that's the case, why have him on the roster at all?

I do hope the extra half (.5) to a full (1.0) win that Taylor delivers over Daniels this season is significant -- because it's probably going to cost us 2-3 wins from 2010 to 2012.

Picking up Jason Taylor says nothing about Demetric Evans ability to play. When you lose two players for the season at the same position, you have to act quickly and fill those roster spots. It just so happen that a former All-Pro is available. It makes sense to me to upgrade at that position. I would say that Jason Taylor is an upgrade over a healthy Phillips McDaniel. Demetric Evans still has a big role on this team and will have plenty of opportunities to contribute. The combination of Taylor and Carter will allow the Redskins to get a push from both ends in their base defense, something they didn't get in the past few seasons. They always had to go to a pass rushing specialist in obvious passing situations.

[Jamaican'Skin]

I'm not sure how you can say that just using D. Evans, instead of trading for J. Taylor would have been a better move. Evans hasn't had the opportunity to start 16 games, hell he's probably started maybe 4 his whole career, while Taylor is a proven Pro Bowl starter. Taylor has signed on for at least a two year stint, allowing all the ends to learn from him. On top of this, we have created more depth on the D Line, proven depth might I add. Whats to say that had we not traded for Taylor, putting our trust in Evans, and he couldn't manage? I mean I thought it would be better to get a sure thing, than hope for a backup to be starting calibre

[MTK]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

This is pretty ridiculous. Not the fact that there are starters and backups on every team. That much is obvious. What I find ridiculous is the notion that players can't move between the designations in your mind: once a player is a backup, he's a backup for life, and if he's a starter, he's earned a starting job for life.

Demetric's been a pretty good backup, which means on about 27 teams in the NFL, if the starter goes down, he gets first crack to prove he can hold the fort...as a starter. We apparently aren't one of those 27 teams.

So... let's say you were the GM. Daniels goes down on the first day of camp. You have $9M or so in your back pocket. Jason Taylor is in Miami just dying to get out of town. Are you really going to say nah, we don't need this move. Give the starting job to Demetric Evans?

[memphisskin]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Sorry, but you're wrong here.

I also think you need to be more careful when you read (or maybe I need to be more careful when I write). The team could have just plugged in Evans, but they felt that was a worst case scenario (so they went out and got Taylor). I'm only questioning their logic that Evans would have been a worst case scenario.

It's going to cost us games in the future because we're old. The idea is that if we use the 2nd round pick wisely, we could improve the team in the long run, which we can't do now. 2-3 wins in a 3 year span isn't a big deal, I don't think, but it's still sort of mortgaging the future.

Also, good work assuming that every 2nd and 6th round pick will net talent the equivalent of Taylor Jacobs and Nemo. That's pretty pessimistic of you.

I agree with you on the draft pick, it is costly. But I think it was the lesson of last year, when we assumed we could just plug Todd Wade in at guard and Buges would "coach 'em up." We are in essence spending tomorrow's 2nd and 6th round picks for a DE because we did not spend them at any time in the past. Maybe now we'll start focusing on the trenches on draft day, make some unsexy picks, like guard or tackle, instead of the splashy wide outs and 2nd tight ends.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

I wasn't assuming that every 2nd and 6th pick equates to Jacobs or Nemo, just pointing out that it's not a guarantee that they will pan out, reflecting your 2-3 win argument.

Well, the average production of a 2nd round pick tends to give a team between 2 and 3 wins over the life of his rookie contract, which is what I was referencing. A star in the making is obviously going to produce much more, and a bust will produce near nothing.

I don't want to make it seem like the team is incapable of picking a bust, but they've done a good job with the draft thus far in the last 5 years.

I don't think Taylor is going to be here and productive long enough to give us value on our 2nd round pick. I really, really would love to be proven wrong here, of course. It's just that I've seen this episode before, and I'm less than impressed at the sequel.

Taylor is still a pass rushing force, which should give the team an extra 7-8 sacks over what they would have gotten with Evans. Next year, Evans and Daniels will probably move on, and we'll have to replace them with the draft. That's when it would have been really nice to have a 2nd round pick to do so with.

[Paintrain]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

This is pretty ridiculous. Not the fact that there are starters and backups on every team. That much is obvious. What I find ridiculous is the notion that players can't move between the designations in your mind: once a player is a backup, he's a backup for life, and if he's a starter, he's earned a starting job for life.

Demetric's been a pretty good backup, which means on about 27 teams in the NFL, if the starter goes down, he gets first crack to prove he can hold the fort...as a starter. We apparently aren't one of those 27 teams.

And if this happens Week 3, then he'd probably get that chance, but day 2 of training camp when there is a better option out there at a reasonable price, you take the better option.

If you're driving a '00 Jetta that breaks down and you have the option for a free '04 Dodge Neon or a '02 Mercedes for $1,000 that you have to spend, are you taking the '04 Dodge Neon? Sure it gets you from A to B, but it's a friggin Dodge Neon and the Benz is a better car than you had initially and is affordable. I know that's not a direct comparison but c'mon dude, wake up..

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by memphisskin

I agree with you on the draft pick, it is costly. But I think it was the lesson of last year, when we assumed we could just plug Todd Wade in at guard and Buges would "coach 'em up." We are in essence spending tomorrow's 2nd and 6th round picks for a DE because we did not spend them at any time in the past. Maybe now we'll start focusing on the trenches on draft day, make some unsexy picks, like guard or tackle, instead of the splashy wide outs and 2nd tight ends.

Yeah that was a pretty big assumption.

Kendall though, only cost us a 5th round pick in 2009. That's a fine price to pay to fill a hole for two seasons.

I understand that we were paying a premium on Taylor because he's a great player, but that raises the bar on him. 8.5 sacks won't cut it this year. We really need 11 or 12 because we put a lot of faith in him giving up that second rounder.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by skinsnut

Here are my thoughts

1. We paid too much with a 2nd and a 6th....I dont know what that amounts too by draft points...but its probably close to a low 1st for 2 years max.

If we have the # 20 pick in the draft. A 2nd and 6th translates into 400 points or giving up the # 50 overall pick rather than # 52. I would've liked to get away with a 3rd & 6th, but the Fins leverage went way up yesterday.

2. The other problem with giving up a 1st day pick is this....that was the pick we needed for a long term DE...yes, you can say we can do this with our 1st...but cmon....we need a CB and those go high...we also need DT and Oline pretty bad...not to mention LB's.

There are these things called free agents also. And how are we going to fill needs at DE, CB, DT & OL with our 1st round pick? There is no team in the NFL that doesn't have depth or talent issues at one position or another. This is the nature of the cap & FA. Some folks have mentioned the Giants great depth at DL, but their secondary scares no one and what if a starting CB goes down. What if Moss goes down for the Patriots, their WRs look pretty average. NEs secondary is also average or worse without Samuel.

3. I am now concerned about running D...Daniels was no sack master...but he sure did well against the run....perhaps evans can help out but do you really want AC or JT on the bench?....what we need now is a STUD DT and a solid OLB to cover for Griffen and Rocky....to me...the needs just went up there.

If we stay with an aggressive Cover 1 as our base D with the SS close to the LOS, this scheme should be fine against the run and will cover Taylor. We have needs to replace Griffen and with Rocky's knees, but the injury to Daniels did nothing to increase or decrease those needs.

5 This one really pisses me off.....our training staff.....last year we lost tons of guys for cramps and muscle pulls...injuries attributable to hydration and stretching.....NOW we lose 2 guys that arguably could have been avoided if they were loosened up more.
I dont blame the training staff....but...this is definately a trend that has not stopped which almost killed our season last year.

We did? When?

Campbell - dislocated kneecap
Carlos Rogers - torn ACL & MCL
Thomas - torn tricep
Jansen - broken ankle
Washington - dislocated elbow
Daniels - foot
Moss - groin, heel
Thrash - ankle

The training staff couldn't do anything to prevent the above injuries. Moss has had injury issues with his hammy in the past. There were some guys with hammy issues, but none missed any significant time or more than one game. I'm sure we had no more of a problem with this than any other team. Since the training staff is not restricted by $$$ or cap, you can be sure the Skins have one of the best staffs in the NFL. Not a fair attack on the training staff IMO.

[jdlea]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Well, the average production of a 2nd round pick tends to give a team between 2 and 3 wins over the life of his rookie contract, which is what I was referencing. A star in the making is obviously going to produce much more, and a bust will produce near nothing.

I don't want to make it seem like the team is incapable of picking a bust, but they've done a good job with the draft thus far in the last 5 years.

I don't think Taylor is going to be here and productive long enough to give us value on our 2nd round pick. I really, really would love to be proven wrong here, of course. It's just that I've seen this episode before, and I'm less than impressed at the sequel.

Taylor is still a pass rushing force, which should give the team an extra 7-8 sacks over what they would have gotten with Evans. Next year, Evans and Daniels will probably move on, and we'll have to replace them with the draft. That's when it would have been really nice to have a 2nd round pick to do so with.

One thing I will point out is that Vinny Cerrato is confident that Jason Taylor will not only play out the contract, but probably even extended in Washington. If that happens, how will your opinion change?

NOTE: I do disagree with you on this issue, but this post is not an attack. I find your use of metric intriguing and would like to know your answer on this subject.

As an aside: are you a baseball fan at all? Just wondering because metrics are used heavily in player evaluation in baseball.

[hail_2_da_skins]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

And if this happens Week 3, then he'd probably get that chance, but day 2 of training camp when there is a better option out there at a reasonable price, you take the better option.

If you're driving a '00 Jetta that breaks down and you have the option for a free '04 Dodge Neon or a '02 Mercedes for $1,000 that you have to spend, are you taking the '04 Dodge Neon? Sure it gets you from A to B, but it's a friggin Dodge Neon and the Benz is a better car than you had initially and is affordable. I know that's not a direct comparison but c'mon dude, wake up..

I'll take the Benz.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

YES!!!!! Do you guys not comprehend the concept of backups? There's no team that has 30 starting caliber players! There are starters and backups. Like there are bosses and secretaries. Not everyone is at the level to be a starter in the NFL. For whatever reason-lack of strength, speed, stamina, whatever-Evans is NOT a starter in the NFL.

Of couse I do. Last year the back up QB for this team played better than the starter. Ryan Grant came in off the bench and played better than any the GB starters. Betts came in and played just as good as Portis did in 06. Willie Parker was undrafted FA and came in off the bench when Bettis got hurt. Tom Brady came in for Bledsoe. Need I go on???? Cause I could be here all day talking about back-ups who just needed a chance.

My point is every single year a back-up or an unknown player comes in and shocks everyone. Derek Anderson is another the perfect example.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

And if this happens Week 3, then he'd probably get that chance, but day 2 of training camp when there is a better option out there at a reasonable price, you take the better option.

If you're driving a '00 Jetta that breaks down and you have the option for a free '04 Dodge Neon or a '02 Mercedes for $1,000 that you have to spend, are you taking the '04 Dodge Neon? Sure it gets you from A to B, but it's a friggin Dodge Neon and the Benz is a better car than you had initially and is affordable. I know that's not a direct comparison but c'mon dude, wake up..

I just think the team is overvaluing it's chances of competing this season.

And yes, those chances just got significantly better. But I think we can agree that this move, in the long run, is probably costing the team a win or two (or perhaps less than a win, if you're optimistic about Taylor's abilities). But the NFC East is at it's all time high point this year. Anyone can take it, and there are three other teams around who are looking to make this 1-2 year rental of Jason Taylor a total waste for us, no matter how well he plays.

I'm not telling the team not to be competitive here, I think we have the talent to win the thing if everything breaks right, but I wish they'd be smarter about it, and not willingly offer something significant into a buyers market.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by jdlea

One thing I will point out is that Vinny Cerrato is confident that Jason Taylor will not only play out the contract, but probably even extended in Washington. If that happens, how will your opinion change?

NOTE: I do disagree with you on this issue, but this post is not an attack. I find your use of metric intriguing and would like to know your answer on this subject.

As an aside: are you a baseball fan at all? Just wondering because metrics are used heavily in player evaluation in baseball.

Yeah, I'm a baseball fan. I'm very familiar with baseball metrics, and use them often, though I find that I don't learn from them in baseball nearly as much as football. Things tend to be more obvious in baseball.

I think we might be best off with Taylor retiring in a year or two. He's playing at a high level right now, but we don't want him to be playing that twilight stage of his career year, I'd rather see him go out at the top of his game, whenever that may be.

The only thing we are guaranteed is this season. Vinny seems pretty confident that Taylor will come back in 2009, but a lot can change between now and then.

IMO, keeping him beyond 2009 is a separate issue from trading for him. As long as he's producing, I'd like to see him stay, but when he stops producing, the team needs to cut it's losses and move on quickly.

I feel confident that he'll give us a good year this season. After that, I'm really not so sure. Steve McNair gave the Ravens only one good season, but the difference is that they didn't trade a second rounder for him (they gave up a 4th, i think).

[jdlea]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

Of couse I do. Last year the back up QB for this team played better than the starter. Ryan Grant came in off the bench and played better than any the GB starters. Betts came in and played just as good as Portis did in 06. Willie Parker was undrafted FA and came in off the bench when Bettis got hurt. Tom Brady came in for Bledsoe. Need I go on???? Cause I could be here all day talking about back-ups who just needed a chance.

My point is every single year a back-up or an unknown player comes in and shocks everyone. Derek Anderson is another the perfect example.

Brodie Croyle came in for Damon Huard. Andrew Walter came in for the Raiders a couple of years ago. Cedric Benson came in after the Thomas Jones trade. Gus Frerotte came in for Marc Bulger. Josh Beck came in for Cleo Lemon. Need I go on?

I'm not saying Evans couldn't have done anything, but let's not get carried away and act like every back up who stepped into a starting role became an All-Pro.