Josh Norman CB is a Redskin

[BaltimoreSkins]

Originally Posted by MTK

He gradually improved each year in the league, he didn't exactly come out of nowhere. And at 28 he's right in his prime and will be for the next 2-3 seasons.

I will confess it seems like a lot of money to me but I am also no scout or GM. So do you think that means the FO considers the next 2-3 years as the best opportunity to contend for a Super Bowl? While a team will always have holes that are unable to address, I am worried about the front seven. I also feel that if they do view this as their "window' that means that they will be very determined to not let Cousins walk next offseason.

[JoeRedskin]

I think it means they thought they could lock up an all-pro corner at market value for the 2-3 years we hope he will be in his prime while continuing to build.

I don't think SM looks at things in such a short term as "We are going to win in the next 2-3 years and, if not, do a roster burn b/c the window will have closed on this lot." My impression is that he is building for a consistent winner and Josh Norman is a piece to that puzzle. I really don't think Norman's contract is going to stop us from continuing with SM's build model. If we don't end up winning it all with Norman in the next 2-3 years, then Fuller steps in and, having had time to develop, covers that piece of the puzzle.

Norman was a solid addition that makes us better and doesn't cripple our chances to continue improving the roster. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

I think it means they thought they could lock up an all-pro corner at market value for the 2-3 years we hope he will be in his prime while continuing to build.

I don't think SM looks at things in such a short term as "We are going to win in the next 2-3 years and, if not, do a roster burn b/c the window will have closed on this lot." My impression is that he is building for a consistent winner and Josh Norman is a piece to that puzzle. I really don't think Norman's contract is going to stop us from continuing with SM's build model. If we don't end up winning it all with Norman in the next 2-3 years, then Fuller steps in and, having had time to develop, covers that piece of the puzzle.

Norman was a solid addition that makes us better and doesn't cripple our chances to continue improving the roster. Nothing more, nothing less.

What Joe said.

[coffee]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

Wasn't there a Carolina Panthers fan posting a while back? I would love to hear his take on the whole thing.

Greetings, my friends! Sorry I've been away for a while, but I had quite the hangover from a painful Super Bowl. I'm getting my feet back under me now and realize I am behind on talking to my friends here about your new CB.

I quickly scanned this thread. I see these are your main questions: Why did Carolina let him go? Is he a steal? Did we overpay? and Is that Giants fan STILL here?

From what I've seen with Norman, your answer to all these questions is somewhat in the middle. I think you will not only be happy with Josh, but I think you'll be thrilled and get a fair amount of good years out of him... as long as you don't expect him to be perfect and the best CB in the league.


First, why we let him go:
We wanted to keep him. He is a really good corner! Unfortunately, he is in the wrong position in our system for big money. We are set up in such a way that our front 7 are priority. We have spent almost nothing on secondary, yet get incredible production from guys considered "has-beens" or that appeared to be liabilities on other teams. (We do the same on offense spending almost nothing on receivers, yet we make people like Tedd Ginn almost a household name.)

Josh earned a payday! It was a luxury for us to have that quality in our backfield when our money was spent elsewhere. Although we all knew Josh deserved elite money after last year, we also knew he likely was gone because our system is working and Gettleman can't and shouldn't screw up the system to keep one star (especially one in the wrong position).

For the record, Josh is a competitor, but I don't think he's actually a diva. He's made a bunch of "Batman" comments etc. that got attention, but it was generally in good fun. He's handled himself well in the locker room and in interviews. The whole OBJ thing was just stupid. It was great competition between two great players, both pushing the limits but only one lost composure. If not for that, you'd have never heard much of anything about the matchup. Josh will be a spark and a plus for your locker room.

Next question: Is he a steal?
I'd say yes. The downside is that you have to pay his value now as opposed to us paying for a rookie that turned elite. But still a steal. Not due to the price, but due to the fact that I think an elite corner can be a major part of your defense and you weren't going to get a Josh Norman quality CB in the draft or anywhere else in free agency. It would've been bad money for us to spend on him, but a good investment in your system. (Of course, you would know better than me if that is the case with your team's system.)

Now, did you overpay?
Maybe. It's hard to tell. There's no question he is a great CB. But the balanced view is that, again, our system has made receivers and secondary look much better than they really are. We have quite a list of mediocre DBs who have looked like stars here and then gotten a payday elsewhere that they didn't live up to.

But I have reason to believe that's not the case with Josh. Here's why: With those other DBs, we could watch games and tell that it was our system making them look better than they were. You couldn't tell that with Josh. In fact, he made a ton of plays that saved our butts in several games.

In fact, our front 7 actually had a challenging year. Kuechly was out several games, as was our best DE, Charles Johnson, and Thomas Davis, and we were still working on getting Greg Hardy's replacement, etc. Josh actually helped us get through those tough spots.

Still, bear in mind that he will occasionally get beat. For example, in that Giants game, OBJ beat him bad then dropped what should've been an easy TD right at the beginning of the day. (In fact, I think that drop played a major part in OBJ's breakdown) So Josh is not going to be Deion Sanders.


So I guess the bottom line is: If you think Josh is going to single-handedly elevate you to the next level, you may be disappointed. If you realize he's a really, really good corner that will make a lot more good plays than bad, you'll be very pleased with the results. I think he's not as good as some think, (because of how our system helps DBs) but he's definitely special and amazingly, I think he's still going to be getting even better in the next few years.

[Bangee7]

Originally Posted by coffee

Greetings, my friends! Sorry I've been away for a while, but I had quite the hangover from a painful Super Bowl. I'm getting my feet back under me now and realize I am behind on talking to my friends here about your new CB.

I quickly scanned this thread. I see these are your main questions: Why did Carolina let him go? Is he a steal? Did we overpay? and Is that Giants fan STILL here?

From what I've seen with Norman, your answer to all these questions is somewhat in the middle. I think you will not only be happy with Josh, but I think you'll be thrilled and get a fair amount of good years out of him... as long as you don't expect him to be perfect and the best CB in the league.


First, why we let him go:
We wanted to keep him. He is a really good corner! Unfortunately, he is in the wrong position in our system for big money. We are set up in such a way that our front 7 are priority. We have spent almost nothing on secondary, yet get incredible production from guys considered "has-beens" or that appeared to be liabilities on other teams. (We do the same on offense spending almost nothing on receivers, yet we make people like Tedd Ginn almost a household name.)

Josh earned a payday! It was a luxury for us to have that quality in our backfield when our money was spent elsewhere. Although we all knew Josh deserved elite money after last year, we also knew he likely was gone because our system is working and Gettleman can't and shouldn't screw up the system to keep one star (especially one in the wrong position).

For the record, Josh is a competitor, but I don't think he's actually a diva. He's made a bunch of "Batman" comments etc. that got attention, but it was generally in good fun. He's handled himself well in the locker room and in interviews. The whole OBJ thing was just stupid. It was great competition between two great players, both pushing the limits but only one lost composure. If not for that, you'd have never heard much of anything about the matchup. Josh will be a spark and a plus for your locker room.

Next question: Is he a steal?
I'd say yes. The downside is that you have to pay his value now as opposed to us paying for a rookie that turned elite. But still a steal. Not due to the price, but due to the fact that I think an elite corner can be a major part of your defense and you weren't going to get a Josh Norman quality CB in the draft or anywhere else in free agency. It would've been bad money for us to spend on him, but a good investment in your system. (Of course, you would know better than me if that is the case with your team's system.)

Now, did you overpay?
Maybe. It's hard to tell. There's no question he is a great CB. But the balanced view is that, again, our system has made receivers and secondary look much better than they really are. We have quite a list of mediocre DBs who have looked like stars here and then gotten a payday elsewhere that they didn't live up to.

But I have reason to believe that's not the case with Josh. Here's why: With those other DBs, we could watch games and tell that it was our system making them look better than they were. You couldn't tell that with Josh. In fact, he made a ton of plays that saved our butts in several games.

In fact, our front 7 actually had a challenging year. Kuechly was out several games, as was our best DE, Charles Johnson, and Thomas Davis, and we were still working on getting Greg Hardy's replacement, etc. Josh actually helped us get through those tough spots.

Still, bear in mind that he will occasionally get beat. For example, in that Giants game, OBJ beat him bad then dropped what should've been an easy TD right at the beginning of the day. (In fact, I think that drop played a major part in OBJ's breakdown) So Josh is not going to be Deion Sanders.


So I guess the bottom line is: If you think Josh is going to single-handedly elevate you to the next level, you may be disappointed. If you realize he's a really, really good corner that will make a lot more good plays than bad, you'll be very pleased with the results. I think he's not as good as some think, (because of how our system helps DBs) but he's definitely special and amazingly, I think he's still going to be getting even better in the next few years.

good post...welcome back coffee

[Schneed10]

Yeah, valuable perspective, thank you.

There's a tendency for some to say 'well if the Panthers only wanted to pay $11M why should we pay $15M'? This post gets to simple differences in philosophy and fit. It's not that Norman isn't elite, the Panthers simply prefer to put their resources into the front seven.

Can't say that's a bad move, that's how the Giants won two Super Bowls. McLoughan wants to ramp up the pressure on the passer too, but he clearly believes in ball hawking secondaries, being involved with Seattle's Legion of Boom. It's OK to do things differently from other teams. Just because Carolina didn't pay him $15M doesn't mean he isn't worth it to us.

I'm excited to see how Galette and Norman impact the defense in tandem. Some serious intensity, ferocity and swagger with those guys. It will be welcome.

[RedskinJake]

I think it's important for some to recognize that Scot has a plan to build through the draft but that leaves a lot of mad money on the table when a guy like Josh Norman suddenly becomes available. They weren't out looking for a Josh Norman, he landed in their lap and they had the cash available so why not. Even if he doesn't excel in this defense, he has more upside than Culliver so it just makes sense to go ahead and do it, it doesn't get in the way of the long term plan so go for it..

[mredskins]

Remember that Byrd guy from Buffalo. The sure fire top FA that NO got. Pretty sure that guy sucks now, just seems like high profile FAs never work out or rarely

[KI Skins Fan]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

I'm excited to see how Galette and Norman impact the defense in tandem. Some serious intensity, ferocity and swagger with those guys. It will be welcome.

I cling to my belief that the better defenses have Pro Bowl caliber stars at each level. Now we have Josh. Can Galette be that good this season? Possibly. If so, then we're a star Interior DL and, possibly, a star ILB away from having the anchors at each level to make us a great defense. As I said, it's just my own belief based on many years as an NFL observer and fan.

[Chico23231]

The fact Carolina FO and to a bigger extent the owner, simply let Norman walk without compensation and under a very acceptable franchise tag amount for the 2016-17 is quite frankly one of the dumbest moves I can remember. This move by Carolina was Albert Haynesworth-stupid....or even worse, Matt Millen roster management-insane.

[Ruhskins]

Originally Posted by mredskins

Remember that Byrd guy from Buffalo. The sure fire top FA that NO got. Pretty sure that guy sucks now, just seems like high profile FAs never work out or rarely

Byrd was hit by injuries and was never the same after them. Buffalo likely knew that may happen and hence why they let him go (or it was just luck). And he hit free agency from day 1 and had leverage in getting a big deal.

Norman's situation is very different from a high-priced FA acquisition, since we didn't acquire him when free agency started (he'd be with the Jags, Raiders, or Giants if he had hit free agency from day 1). He probably is not being paid what he would have commanded on the open market on day 1 of free agency; or at the very least, he would have gotten better terms in a similar contract (his deal with the Redskins is basically a 2-year deal).

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by coffee

Greetings, my friends! Sorry I've been away for a while, but I had quite the hangover from a painful Super Bowl. I'm getting my feet back under me now and realize I am behind on talking to my friends here about your new CB.

I quickly scanned this thread. I see these are your main questions: Why did Carolina let him go? Is he a steal? Did we overpay? and Is that Giants fan STILL here?

From what I've seen with Norman, your answer to all these questions is somewhat in the middle. I think you will not only be happy with Josh, but I think you'll be thrilled and get a fair amount of good years out of him... as long as you don't expect him to be perfect and the best CB in the league.


First, why we let him go:
We wanted to keep him. He is a really good corner! Unfortunately, he is in the wrong position in our system for big money. We are set up in such a way that our front 7 are priority. We have spent almost nothing on secondary, yet get incredible production from guys considered "has-beens" or that appeared to be liabilities on other teams. (We do the same on offense spending almost nothing on receivers, yet we make people like Tedd Ginn almost a household name.)

Josh earned a payday! It was a luxury for us to have that quality in our backfield when our money was spent elsewhere. Although we all knew Josh deserved elite money after last year, we also knew he likely was gone because our system is working and Gettleman can't and shouldn't screw up the system to keep one star (especially one in the wrong position).

For the record, Josh is a competitor, but I don't think he's actually a diva. He's made a bunch of "Batman" comments etc. that got attention, but it was generally in good fun. He's handled himself well in the locker room and in interviews. The whole OBJ thing was just stupid. It was great competition between two great players, both pushing the limits but only one lost composure. If not for that, you'd have never heard much of anything about the matchup. Josh will be a spark and a plus for your locker room.

Next question: Is he a steal?
I'd say yes. The downside is that you have to pay his value now as opposed to us paying for a rookie that turned elite. But still a steal. Not due to the price, but due to the fact that I think an elite corner can be a major part of your defense and you weren't going to get a Josh Norman quality CB in the draft or anywhere else in free agency. It would've been bad money for us to spend on him, but a good investment in your system. (Of course, you would know better than me if that is the case with your team's system.)

Now, did you overpay?
Maybe. It's hard to tell. There's no question he is a great CB. But the balanced view is that, again, our system has made receivers and secondary look much better than they really are. We have quite a list of mediocre DBs who have looked like stars here and then gotten a payday elsewhere that they didn't live up to.

But I have reason to believe that's not the case with Josh. Here's why: With those other DBs, we could watch games and tell that it was our system making them look better than they were. You couldn't tell that with Josh. In fact, he made a ton of plays that saved our butts in several games.

In fact, our front 7 actually had a challenging year. Kuechly was out several games, as was our best DE, Charles Johnson, and Thomas Davis, and we were still working on getting Greg Hardy's replacement, etc. Josh actually helped us get through those tough spots.

Still, bear in mind that he will occasionally get beat. For example, in that Giants game, OBJ beat him bad then dropped what should've been an easy TD right at the beginning of the day. (In fact, I think that drop played a major part in OBJ's breakdown) So Josh is not going to be Deion Sanders.


So I guess the bottom line is: If you think Josh is going to single-handedly elevate you to the next level, you may be disappointed. If you realize he's a really, really good corner that will make a lot more good plays than bad, you'll be very pleased with the results. I think he's not as good as some think, (because of how our system helps DBs) but he's definitely special and amazingly, I think he's still going to be getting even better in the next few years.

Yeah really good post. I do think we overpaid a bit. But my view is you have to overpay on a FEW of your players, just like some are going to be underpaid.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by Ruhskins

Byrd was hit by injuries and was never the same after them. Buffalo likely knew that may happen and hence why they let him go (or it was just luck). And he hit free agency from day 1 and had leverage in getting a big deal.

Norman's situation is very different from a high-priced FA acquisition, since we didn't acquire him when free agency started (he'd be with the Jags, Raiders, or Giants if he had hit free agency from day 1). He probably is not being paid what he would have commanded on the open market on day 1 of free agency; or at the very least, he would have gotten better terms in a similar contract (his deal with the Redskins is basically a 2-year deal).

All true but the fact remains that spending big dollars in free agency rarely works. Even the free agent signings that SM has done haven't worked out. I'm 50/50 on Norman.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by RedskinJake

I think it's important for some to recognize that Scot has a plan to build through the draft but that leaves a lot of mad money on the table when a guy like Josh Norman suddenly becomes available. They weren't out looking for a Josh Norman, he landed in their lap and they had the cash available so why not. Even if he doesn't excel in this defense, he has more upside than Culliver so it just makes sense to go ahead and do it, it doesn't get in the way of the long term plan so go for it..

Agreed. I like how we're sitting back and waiting for a guy like Norman to come along. But at 15 million a year he needs to excel in order for us to be a better defense.

[That Guy]

if norman doesn't work out we have an out after year 2. it'd be an expensive mistake, but not catastrophic.