DWOC's International Burn a Koran Day

[saden1]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

In light of Iraq's top shiite cleric "urging restraint" by all Muslims, I suggest it is not just the pastor who need fear from a "nut job out there that thinks he's going to get heaven credits with a violent act."

What do you expect this Ayatollah to say? Unlike Christianity Islam and Judaism don't subscribe to turning the other cheek. In Islam one is expected to conduct himself/herself righteously towards others at all times.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by Chico23231

My friend we will thankfully never be a war with islam because of our principals. We will be at war with people who use Islam as a veil against our government policies in the middle east. Now they will lose.

I hope and pray you're right, but they will only lose because of two things; 1) the American people understanding more about Islam and those that use its teachings to support violence and 2) moderate or peaceful Muslims becoming more outspoken and forceful in the condemnation of violent acts in the name of their religion.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by saden1

What do you expect this Ayatollah to say? Unlike Christianity Islam and Judaism don't subscribe to turning the other cheek. In Islam one is expected to conduct himself/herself righteously towards others at all times.

"others" would be read as "other Muslims", non-believers have a different set of rules.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by saden1

We're seeing violence acts against Muslims now in America without them having to burn the Bible. It's one thing for US personal to burn the Bible an entirely another for Muslims to do so for the sole purpose of Aggravating Christians. Burning the Qur'an is an absolute no-no by anyone, be it Christian or Muslim or a Jew.

Hey Emad - How about we just imagine someone hanging him on a cross and slowing torturing him to death?

I recognize the subtle difference between each religion's view of its fundamental text. In orthodox Christianity, the Bible is believed to be the word of God transcribed by divinely inspired authors - Sacred due to the divine inspiration which brought it into existence. Whereas, as I understand it, the Koran is, very literally and in a real personal sense, the word of God - Sacred by its existense. Yet, for all this subtle, somewhat rhetorical BS to non-theologians, does it in any way change the underlying truth that violent destructive responses to the non-violent choices of others is antithetical to the teachings of Allah?

Originally Posted by saden1

The military got the sense that those churches will keep sending proselytizing Bibles and like the military personal said, if they returned them they will send them right back to another organization and thus give the impression that the Military is there to proselytize. They've made a tactical decision, one which I am sure was difficult. As for Obama making a statement, why would he? He wasn't president when the incident took place. If you want them to have a military policy to burn all trash except the Bible you have my support. I will not support distributing them or donating them somewhere outside the danger zone.

You know what. I am pretty much in complete agreement with you on this. My differences don't (at this point ) warrant a digression.

[saden1]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

"others" would be read as "other Muslims", non-believers have a different set of rules.

If you're eying it from extremist angle, I suppose so. There's lots of room for improvement on the part of the Muslim world. The sad truth is people in the Muslim world take their own ineptitude and frustrations with their condition on people who are not like them. This has happened in the past, happens in the present, and will happen in the future. This is not a domain exclusive to Muslims either (see Kosovo).

[saden1]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

Hey Emad - How about we just imagine someone hanging him on a cross and slowing torturing him to death?

I recognize the subtle difference between each religion's view of its fundamental text. In orthodox Christianity, the Bible is believed to be the word of God transcribed by divinely inspired authors - Sacred due to the divine inspiration which brought it into existence. Whereas, as I understand it, the Koran is, very literally and in a real personal sense, the word of God - Sacred by its existense. Yet, for all this subtle, somewhat rhetorical BS to non-theologians, does it in any way change the underlying truth that violent destructive responses to the non-violent choices of others is antithetical to the teachings of Allah?



You know what. I am pretty much in complete agreement with you on this. My differences don't (at this point ) warrant a digression.

One would hope people would turn the other cheek and take the non-violent approach but the sad truth is that passages in holly books are in the eye of the beholder whether they be pacifist or antagonistic.

[Chico23231]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

I hope and pray you're right, but they will only lose because of two things; 1) the American people understanding more about Islam and those that use its teachings to support violence and 2) moderate or peaceful Muslims becoming more outspoken and forceful in the condemnation of violent acts in the name of their religion.

We would all like to see that no doubt. People need to get past the religion thing all together and focus on the politics of that region. Israel vs Palestine conflict is the driving force behind all upheavel in the region.

[CRedskinsRule]

What you want, can't and won't happen Joe. And is one reason why the Jewish/Muslim war will not be ended by human eyes. In the old Testament of the Bible, God tells the Israelites to go into a land and destroy all remnants of former gods, idols etc. This isn't a one time exclusive thing, this is a trait of God. It is the same trait that Muslims claim under Sharia Law, when the Taliban destroyed many ancient Buddhists.

When God is seen as a jealous God, then any number of atrocities may be done in his name. Alot of Christians wave off this part of God, and many cynics of God point to the Christians ignoring this side as "proof" of hypocrisy. However each Christian person deals with this aspect of God, it is certainly that devout followers of the Jewish or Muslim Holy Scriptures can not ever give more than even a tolerant shrug, and in the most devout communities a tolerant shrug can be seen as blasphemy against the Holy One.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by saden1

What do you expect this Ayatollah to say? Unlike Christianity Islam and Judaism don't subscribe to turning the other cheek. In Islam one is expected to conduct himself/herself righteously towards others at all times.

I admit I am only a dilettante in Islamic theology and that, perhaps, the words spoken by the cleric resonate differently within an Islamic audience as opposed to a Christian one. Further, I admit to ignorance on Islam's stance as to the "turn the other cheek" tenet. Even if acting “righteously” is the Islamic standard, however, some Christian authors take the view that, when the Bible's "turn the other cheek" quotation is read in historical and textual context, it comes out much the same as conducting oneself "righteously".

Righteous personal conduct interpretation
There is a third school of thought in regard to th[e] passage ["turn the other cheek"]. Jesus was not changing the meaning of "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" but restoring it to the original context. Jesus starts his statement with "you have heard it said" which means that he was clarifying a misconception, as opposed to "it is written" which would be a reference to scripture. The common misconception seems to be that people were using Exodus 21:24-25 (the guidelines for a magistrate to punish convicted offenders) as a justification for personal vengeance. In this context, the command to "turn the other cheek" would not be a command to allow someone to beat or rob a person, but a command not to take vengeance.

Turning the other cheek - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thus, if the Islamic standard is to act "righteously", and based on the fact that both early Islamic and Christian legal theory seem to be by culture and geography, fairly direct descendents from Hammurabic influences, I would expect the Imam to strongly condemn any vengeful response to the burning as being unrighteous vengeance that is repulsive to Allah and contrary to the Word of God.

Again, however, I plead ignorance of as to the Qu’ran’s specific teachings on what is considered “righteous” action toward others.

[Hog1]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

No comparison between the acts other than sacred texts burned or threatened to be burned.

What is interesting is the response to each act. Many Muslims threatened violence world-wide, yet no Christians I am aware of committed or threatened violence over the burned Bibles. Even the soldier the Bibles were sent to surrendered them without incident, and it appears he was an Evangelical.

Considering this incident has been made public and in light of the President's comments over the Quran incident, it would seem appropriate he issue some sort of statement, or policy through Sec Gates, stating that the military would not be throwing away as trash, and/or burning any Bibles. They could be donated somewhere outside the danger zone or returned to the folks that sent them with a warning to not resend them.

SHAZAM.....is it not amazing indeed...war mongering Chrisitans and peace loving Muslims...who would have thought?

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

From the article:


This is exactly what I mean by a tolerant shrug. Sorry, he is not condemning violent reactions. Rather, he “urges” Muslims to exercise “restraint”. Is the restraint “urged” because it is wrong to do violence? No, it is urged so as to not “hurt the followers” of Islam. What about urging restraint because it is wrong to do harm to others who don’t believe as you do? What about condemning violent responses to hateful speech as being antithetical to the word of Allah, the teachings of Mohammend and “not compatible with the task of religious leaders to “promote tolerance and peaceful coexistence”?

He does not defend the right of people to speak their mind. Instead, he “stress[es] the importance of not letting this [burning] occur.” If DWOC wants to legally make his statement how can he be prevented except by violence? By changing the fundamental constitutional guarantees of our country?

Where is the unequivocal condemnation of violence? Where is the “violence in response to speech is sinful”?

This statement by “Iraq’s top Shiite Muslim leader” is exactly the type of reaction that I am talking about. Tell the faithful it is wrong and evil to kill in response hatred. Tell them this idiot has the right to make his own choices about Allah. Tell them that any one who encourages them to harm others in response to this action is working against the will Allah. Don’t simply "urge restraint" because a violent response might make Islam look bad.

In order to truly “promote tolerance and peaceful coexistence”, I would hope for more from “Iraq’s top Shiite Muslim leader”.

I feel like we read the same article....yet we didn't read the same article...I will now print out your posts and torch them

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by saden1

One would hope people would turn the other cheek and take the non-violent approach but the sad truth is that passages in holly books are in the eye of the beholder whether they be pacifist or antagonistic.

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

What you want, can't and won't happen Joe. And is one reason why the Jewish/Muslim war will not be ended by human eyes. In the old Testament of the Bible, God tells the Israelites to go into a land and destroy all remnants of former gods, idols etc. This isn't a one time exclusive thing, this is a trait of God. It is the same trait that Muslims claim under Sharia Law, when the Taliban destroyed many ancient Buddhists.

When God is seen as a jealous God, then any number of atrocities may be done in his name. Alot of Christians wave off this part of God, and many cynics of God point to the Christians ignoring this side as "proof" of hypocrisy. However each Christian person deals with this aspect of God, it is certainly that devout followers of the Jewish or Muslim Holy Scriptures can not ever give more than even a tolerant shrug, and in the most devout communities a tolerant shrug can be seen as blasphemy against the Holy One.

And this is what causes people like BleedBurgandy to dismiss all religion as equivalent of unicorns and lunacy – human misuse of revealed wisdom. It is also why I am so angered by leading Islamic clerics failure to loudly, proudly and unequivocally condemn vengeful actions.

saden - Do you believe that when read as a whole and working to resolve apparently conflicting out of context statements within the Qu’ran about vengeance, violence and Allah’s mercy through critical study, that any truly thoughtful, rational Muslim could believe that Allah as revealed in the Qu’ran condones vengeful actions against, or the murder of, those who simply do not believe in the Qu’ran’s teachings?

CRR – Similarly, do you believe that a similar study of the Talmud, the whole Talmud, would lead any truly thoughtful, rational Jew to believe that the Judaic God seeks the death and destruction of all non-Jews?

All I ask is for religious leaders, on all sides, is to seek the actual wisdom revealed in their Holy Scriptures – all of it, not just the parts they like - and, accordingly, teach their flock to forego vengeance, to condemn violence and to seek Truth.

Yes. It is a utopian vision but, dammit, the Truth Is Out There!

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

I feel like we read the same article....yet we didn't read the same article...I will now print out your posts and torch them

I am sure you are not alone in that sentiment.

[CRedskinsRule]

Interesting read if you want:
Dilling: IV. Exploitation of Non-Jews

[saden1]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

And this is what causes people like BleedBurgandy to dismiss all religion as equivalent of unicorns and lunacy – human misuse of revealed wisdom. It is also why I am so angered by leading Islamic clerics failure to loudly, proudly and unequivocally condemn vengeful actions.

saden - Do you believe that when read as a whole and working to resolve apparently conflicting out of context statements within the Qu’ran about vengeance, violence and Allah’s mercy through critical study, that any truly thoughtful, rational Muslim could believe that Allah as revealed in the Qu’ran condones vengeful actions against, or the murder of, those who simply do not believe in the Qu’ran’s teachings?

CRR – Similarly, do you believe that a similar study of the Talmud, the whole Talmud, would lead any truly thoughtful, rational Jew to believe that the Judaic God seeks the death and destruction of all non-Jews?

All I ask is for religious leaders, on all sides, is to seek the actual wisdom revealed in their Holy Scriptures – all of it, not just the parts they like - and, accordingly, teach their flock to forego vengeance, to condemn violence and to seek Truth.

Yes. It is a utopian vision but, dammit, the Truth Is Out There!

No but then again I'm a Spinozist.