Hall In, Taylor Out??

[MTK]

Let's not blow things out of proportion here, Hall is being brought in for depth, I really don't think there's any need to look at this move any other way.

Taylor isn't missing mandatory practices. As much as it sucks, and as much as the staff would like him to be there, guess what? He doesn't have to be there. Once the workouts become mandatory, if he doesn't show then we'll have cause for concern.

[Schneed10]

Yeah it's definitely way way too early to seriously think about trading the guy. I don't think he's a bad guy, I think he's just shy and reserved. He also is coming off his rookie season in which he played 16 games plus 5 preseason games, as opposed to the 11 or 12 he was used to in college. I'm sure that has taken it's toll on him. So if reports say that he just needs a break and he'll report when it's mandatory, then I am inclined to believe that until he proves otherwise. Let's cut the guy some slack, it's not like he's pulling a Randy Moss and walking off the field while there's time left on the clock, or pulling a TO and demanding to renegotiate after one year.

[TheMalcolmConnection]

I don't know about shy, my friend has a picture of Sean posterizing him at a basketball court.

However, I really don't think he's a bad guy either. Definitely an introvert and I think he'll be here when it's mandatory.

[PSUSkinsFan21]

First let me respond to the question posed by the thread: I don't agree that we should look to trade or cut ST at this point. I would, however support plugging Hall in for the first few series of the first few games to let Taylor sit on the bench and think about why he's not starting for this football TEAM.

That said, I'm really shocked at how many people are so willing to make excuses for this guy. He needs time away from football? What? Is there any reason on earth why Sean Taylor deserves more time away from football than any other player in the league? Is there any other second year player in the entire NFL sitting at home right now taking an extended offseason because they're just not quite used to this whole NFL thing? Is there any other player in the league sitting at home, pretty much for no reason at all right now? I mean we talk about this guy like he's more fragile than our wives/girlfriends when it's a really bad month with heavy flow.

Look, I don't want to beat a dead horse here, but I have a problem downplaying ST's absence as just a minor inconvenience or no big deal because the workouts are "voluntary". I mean for just one moment, step back and consider how ST looks to you in any other uniform. I mean picture Eli Manning, Larry Fitzgerald or Jonathan Vilma sitting at home right now, refusing to return their coach's calls, and simply not showing up for OTAs without a single excuse (except rampid speculation that they just wanted a few more weeks after over 3 months off to chill and keep away from the media). What would you think about those guys?

I'm just bothered by how much people are willing to cater to the 4 year old who wants to sit in the corner pouting, avoiding everyone else at the party because somebody said "boo" to them.

I'm sorry if I'm an insensitive prick (and many times I am), but this little boy has got some SERIOUS growing up to do. And I, for one, am concerned that that immaturity IS going to effect his development as a football player and his abilities on the field. And, Yes, I do hope I am dead wrong.

[Schneed10]

Originally Posted by PSUSkinsFan21

First let me respond to the question posed by the thread: I don't agree that we should look to trade or cut ST at this point. I would, however support plugging Hall in for the first few series of the first few games to let Taylor sit on the bench and think about why he's not starting for this football TEAM.

That said, I'm really shocked at how many people are so willing to make excuses for this guy. He needs time away from football? What? Is there any reason on earth why Sean Taylor deserves more time away from football than any other player in the league? Is there any other second year player in the entire NFL sitting at home right now taking an extended offseason because they're just not quite used to this whole NFL thing? Is there any other player in the league sitting at home, pretty much for no reason at all right now? I mean we talk about this guy like he's more fragile than our wives/girlfriends when it's a really bad month with heavy flow.

Look, I don't want to beat a dead horse here, but I have a problem downplaying ST's absence as just a minor inconvenience or no big deal because the workouts are "voluntary". I mean for just one moment, step back and consider how ST looks to you in any other uniform. I mean picture Eli Manning, Larry Fitzgerald or Jonathan Vilma sitting at home right now, refusing to return their coach's calls, and simply not showing up for OTAs without a single excuse (except rampid speculation that they just wanted a few more weeks after over 3 months off to chill and keep away from the media). What would you think about those guys?

I'm just bothered by how much people are willing to cater to the 4 year old who wants to sit in the corner pouting, avoiding everyone else at the party because somebody said "boo" to them.

I'm sorry if I'm an insensitive prick (and many times I am), but this little boy has got some SERIOUS growing up to do. And I, for one, am concerned that that immaturity IS going to effect his development as a football player and his abilities on the field. And, Yes, I do hope I am dead wrong.

You love the "voluntary doesn't mean voluntary" argument. But I'm sorry it does. It is what it is. Is Taylor a pussy? Yes. Does he need to get his act together? Yes. Does he need to grow up? Yes. Does he need to get in touch with coach Gibbs? Yes. Does he have to show up for these OTAs? NO.

Are other players there, despite the fact these workouts are voluntary? Yes. Is this cause for us to question Sean Taylor's committment to the Redskins? Yes. Should we demand improvement from him? Yes. Should we cut him or trade him, or even bench him for a game? No way, not until he does something WRONG.

And that's your bottom line.

[PSUSkinsFan21]

Originally Posted by Schneed10

You love the "voluntary doesn't mean voluntary" argument. But I'm sorry it does. It is what it is.

Actually, I'm not saying voluntary doesn't mean voluntary. What I'm saying is I can't believe how nonchalant so many people are about the fact that he's missing the OTAs. I'll conceed that contractually ST doesn't have to come to the OTAs. But you know what, nobody else HAS to either, yet they're all there. That, to me, is a problem that I'm not willing to dismiss without a good reason. And the excuse that he's just a little too emotional right now to be there, is not, in my opinion, a valid reason. Again, I'm just surprised so many are willing to say: "well, Portis said he needed some time away, and he's shy, so what are you gonna do?" What are you gonna do? Bench him. Sit him. Yell at him. Shake him around. Do SOMETHING for God's sake to let him know that this is not ok. He's a professional, he's part of a team, it's time to act like it.

Should we cut him or trade him, or even bench him for a game? No way, not until he does something WRONG.
And that's your bottom line.

Well then this is where we differ. I think he has done enough wrong to sit for a few series, because I think his actions are "WRONG." Not calling your coach back is wrong. Not showing up without an excuse is wrong. It's certainly not right, because if it was, ST wouldn't be the only player in the NFL to do these things without a valid reason.

What I'm proposing isn't ground-breaking here. Coaches in professional sports have sat players over the years for any number of reasons. Tell me where the rule is that a player can only be sat for breaching his contract? Disrespecting your coach is the fastest way to get benched on some teams. Showing up out of shape is another (stay tuned for whether that is the case or not). Failing to show a team attitude is another. Guys have been benced for getting arrested. That doesn't breach their contract, and they may be found innocent eventually, but players have still been benched for it. I'm sorry, but to propose that Gibbs has no right to make a player sit for showing him complete disrespect by not even calling the man back? That, to me, doesn't make sense.

[MTK]

Agreed Schneed10.

I'm not trying to downplay Taylor's absence, but it is what it is. He's missing voluntary workouts. The Skins could cry all they want, but in the end the league would shrug it's shoulders and say so what... he's missing voluntary workouts.

Do I like it? Hell no. The guy could at least return phone calls to his boss.

[firstdown]

Not every person is a team type player. What I mean is that they keep to themself and are not the leader or group type guys. From what I have seen and heard about Taylor is that he is a little secluded type person. Their is nothing wrong with this as long as he can work with and perform well as a group. We all know from last year that he has no problem fitting in during pratice and shines on game day. If I was a player I would want to avoid the media whenever I could. If he is doing the proper training and comes to camp on time who gives a shit what he does until then as long as he stays out of trouble.

[PSUSkinsFan21]

Originally Posted by firstdown

Not every person is a team type player. What I mean is that they keep to themself and are not the leader or group type guys. From what I have seen and heard about Taylor is that he is a little secluded type person. Their is nothing wrong with this as long as he can work with and perform well as a group. We all know from last year that he has no problem fitting in during pratice and shines on game day. If I was a player I would want to avoid the media whenever I could. If he is doing the proper training and comes to camp on time who gives a shit what he does until then as long as he stays out of trouble.

Again, I refuse to believe ST is the ONLY player in the league who is shy, introverted, secluded, whatever. Every other guy is there, he should be too. And if you think that missing OTAs (where they are working on techniques, drills, and defensive schemes) when you've only played your rookie year so far is not going to be detrimental to his development as a player? Then you're far more optomistic than I am.

[MTK]

Bench him for missing voluntary workouts?? I think the NFLPA would probably have something to say about that.

[PSUSkinsFan21]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

Bench him for missing voluntary workouts?? I think the NFLPA would probably have something to say about that.

Actually the NFLPA wouldn't have anything to say about it. As long as the Skins are paying his contract, there isn't a single thing the NFLPA could do about the Skins' decisions regarding who to start and who to sit. Can you imagine the precident that would set? Then every second stringer could go crying to the NFLPA every time they don't get to start and simply claim that it's because of a personal issue with the coach.

Trust me on this one, as a legal matter, as long as ST gets his paycheck, the NFLPA has no say in who the Skins start and who they sit, for any reason or for no reason at all.

[MTK]

I'm not so sure about that, I don't think a team can discipline a player for missing voluntary workouts.

They would probably have to say it's for another reason, but if they bench him and say it's for skipping the OTAs, I would think the league wouldn't be kosher with that.

[BrudLee]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

I'm not so sure about that, I don't think a team can discipline a player for missing voluntary workouts.

They would probably have to say it's for another reason, but if they bench him and say it's for skipping the OTAs, I would think the league wouldn't be kosher with that.

In theory:
Joe Gibbs - We've decided to start Hall this game. We just feel he has a better handle on the playbook and what we are trying to accomplish.

Who's going to make a stink about that?

[MTK]

Originally Posted by BrudLee

In theory:
Joe Gibbs - We've decided to start Hall this game. We just feel he has a better handle on the playbook and what we are trying to accomplish.

Who's going to make a stink about that?

That's my point, but if they say we're starting Hall because Taylor is a punk and skipped the OTAs, the league isn't going to go for that.

[dblanch66]

Once ST reports to camp and begins working with the team and coaches, all this will be like a fart in the wind. The only thing I don't understand is the "not returning the coaches call" thing. I think at least he could do that. But we don't really have all the inside scoop about that either. Most of what we are reading and talking about is heresay anyway. OTA's? Did they even exist ten years ago? ST isn't pulling an "Iverson". When the chips are down and we take the field Monday night in Dallas, who do you want starting at safety for the Washington Redskins? Hall or Taylor? Its kind of a no brainer. If he's in training camp and shows up in shape and hitting like a beast, I've got no beef with this. He's a bit of a kook. So was Riggo, Manley, Theismann, Sonny J., Brian Mitchell, Pat Fischer, Billy Kilmer etc. just to name a few. They all did ok.. Not everyone has to be like Darrell and Art.