Joe Gibbs lied

[skinsguy]

Originally Posted by CRT3

Skinsguy don't even bother with off, he will argue till you are blue in the face. He is never wrong so there is no point in trying to make him see the light cause he is never wrong.

However I agree with your assesment that they were use mostly for blocking and did get their FAIR SHARE of passes. Comparing them to todays TE is unfair as offense and defensive game plans have changed along with a better crop of athletic TE's. Seems to me that the West Coast offense was in its iffancy stages in the 80's.

Keep up the good posts and ignore those who, well you know what I mean here.

Of course he thinks he's always right. After someone keeps telling themselves that over and over again, they eventually start to believe that is the case when the rest of us can see what is obvious. That is why I say Off is arguing for the sake of argument.

Its funny, but if he actually took time to read and understand what others post, he might not be so inclined to argue.

[Daseal]

Skinsguy and CRT3, You two aren't exactly open to other interpretations either. I think it's funny how you'll blast someone for it but can't possibly fathom it was Gibbs that held this team back last year. If you want to criticize someone for being closed minded, look to yourself first before you make that accusation.

The thing is, when it comes to things like this Offiss is pretty damn correct most of the time. He gave you hard numbers to look at, and you can't really say anything to it besides bringing it down to a personal level. He also seems to know a hell of a lot about the Giants. Someone was arguing with him about LT and he was right - something TAFKAS found an article on.

Offiss doesn't drink the Kool-aid, and he doesn't just follow someone and support their actions no matter what. He's normally a very objective person and will give credit where credit is due. If he has different views from you, so what. They joy is this board used to be able to argue their side without someone launching some sort of personal attack on them. Lately that seems to be changing.

[CRT3]

So I said what I think, does that make me close minded? I did take a jab at Off but he somtimes deserves it. But what is most interesting about your staement is that you said Off gave hard numbers. Sure numbers don't lie but the schemes have changed over the years which was my point. I said "However I agree with your assesment that they were use mostly for blocking and did get their FAIR SHARE of passes. Comparing them to todays TE is unfair as offense and defensive game plans have changed along with a better crop of athletic TE's. Seems to me that the West Coast offense was in its iffancy stages in the 80's."
So the hard numbers don't neccesarly match up with reality, or do they?

[Daseal]

Then match them up against TE's of that era and examine them.

CRT3, both you and skinsfan have not agreed with me. Which is fine, many people here don't necessarily share my opinions. Some do. However, most everyone can argue against me without things getting personal, and that's how I like it. We can both argue our point, but at the end of the day we're all Redskins fans with a lot of knowledge to be shared. It's amazing how much you can learn from hearing other people's opinions and being open to others. The worst thing I see on this site is someone telling another person because they don't think Gibbs is the messiah, or saying that he had problems last year that they're no longer a fan. Fans should be most critical of their own team, not so optimistic they look foolish.

[TheMalcolmConnection]

The one thing that pisses me off most is when it gets into a dick-swinging contest in here. Daseal is right. Sometimes it just gets WAY too personal. Most of us that have been here awhile know how other people think and we accept that opinion.

Personally, I value dissenting opinions because on more than one occassion, people have pointed hard facts out to me and due to that information, I have changed my mind.

[Daseal]

Daseal is right.

Words rarely spoken! Sorry - I must savor the moment!

[CRT3]

Originally Posted by Daseal

Then match them up against TE's of that era and examine them.

CRT3, both you and skinsfan have not agreed with me. Which is fine, many people here don't necessarily share my opinions. Some do. However, most everyone can argue against me without things getting personal, and that's how I like it. We can both argue our point, but at the end of the day we're all Redskins fans with a lot of knowledge to be shared. It's amazing how much you can learn from hearing other people's opinions and being open to others. The worst thing I see on this site is someone telling another person because they don't think Gibbs is the messiah, or saying that he had problems last year that they're no longer a fan. Fans should be most critical of their own team, not so optimistic they look foolish.

Well put, but I have never claimed Gibbs to be the mesiah and I am still a huge fan. In fact to prove how big a fan I am, I went to a very high level business meeting the other day with not a tie and jacket like my cohorts but my retro Arrington jersey. Sure broke the stuffy mood of the meeting and the deal got done much to my favor. Plus, I got to rub it in a little further with a Eagles cohort who just never has the balls to do that. So I would say no one around here would ever claim that I am not a diehard. No on to the comparisons, lets pick the top 5 from the early 80's and the to[ 5 from last year and compare.

2004
Crumpler - Atlanta = 48 Rec 774 Yds. 6 TDs
Gonzalex - KC = 102 REC 1258 Yds. 7 TDs
Gates - SD = 81 REC 964 Yds. 13TDs
Shockey - NYG = 61 REC 661 Yds. 6 TD's
Johnson -SF = 82 REC 825 Yds. 2 TDs
(Heap - Bal Played 6 Games and Winslow - Clev Played 2) These 2 Could be the best of the bunch

1983
Winslow Sr. - SD 88 Rec. 1172 Yds. 8 TDs
Newsome - Clev 89 Rec. 970 Yds. 6 TDs
Christenson - Oak 92 Rec. 1247 Yds. 12 TDs
Caufman- GB 54 Rec. 814 Yds. 11 TDs
Cosbie - Dal 46 Rec. 588 Yds 6 TDs


So a slight edge to last years guys over 1983 which was choosen as it had the consensus of carreer years for all of the above. There are more 2 TE offenses now and the tight end is utilized more then ever. What might be your thoughts on this

[Daseal]

To me 83 and 04 look fairly similar in terms of receptions.

I don't doubt you're diehard, nor do I doubt it about anyone on the site. I wasn't trying to crack on your dedication, I'm more than sure it's there. The problem is people on this site being accused of it.

[skinsguy]

Originally Posted by Daseal

Skinsguy and CRT3, You two aren't exactly open to other interpretations either. I think it's funny how you'll blast someone for it but can't possibly fathom it was Gibbs that held this team back last year. If you want to criticize someone for being closed minded, look to yourself first before you make that accusation.

The thing is, when it comes to things like this Offiss is pretty damn correct most of the time. He gave you hard numbers to look at, and you can't really say anything to it besides bringing it down to a personal level. He also seems to know a hell of a lot about the Giants. Someone was arguing with him about LT and he was right - something TAFKAS found an article on.

Offiss doesn't drink the Kool-aid, and he doesn't just follow someone and support their actions no matter what. He's normally a very objective person and will give credit where credit is due. If he has different views from you, so what. They joy is this board used to be able to argue their side without someone launching some sort of personal attack on them. Lately that seems to be changing.

Hey pot, the kettle's calling you! :vomit-smi

[skinsguy]

Daseal,

Talk about someone bringing something down to a personal level..you have just done so in one post and whatever conversation/argument that Off and I were having had nothing to do with you whatsoever.

[Daseal]

I'm not attacking you whatsoever. I'm guessing you're referring to the first paragraph since the rest couldn't remotely be judged as biased towards you. I was saying how you guys like to blast people and bring them down when they have a different opinion from yours. I will gladly find you some examples if you like.

I also didn't bring it to a "personal level" in that respect. I didn't start to say you're not a fan, or you're an idiot for thinking Gibbs offense can still work. There's a difference between saying what you see, and slandering someone.

[RedskinRat]

Chaps, play nice please.

[skinsguy]

Yes, you are attacking me Daseal. And what is worse, you're using a public thread to do so instead of settling it maturely with private messaging. What's more, you have brought this to a personal level by singling me out. I have never posted, "Daseal, you're not a Redskins fan." I have posted something along the lines of, "Some here apparently are fair weather fans or quick to jump off the bandwagon when things go wrong..." which is the truth. If you felt you were guilty of such, then so be it, but I haven't singled you out.

And yes, I disagree with you quite often and feel I have a right to disagree with you by posting my thoughts and feelings like anyone else does. When I do, I base my opinions on personal experience of watching this football team since the early 1980's and following them very closely up until the present. If you think I'm blasting you - sorry, but I'm just stating my opinion on what I know works and what I'm pretty sure doesn't.

[Daseal]

Explain how I'm attacking you? You say that people are fairweather fans in every other post it seems like. Any post that at all shows Gibbs in a negative light you think someone's a fairweather fan. If people are still fans now, it's doubtfull they're going to be leaving now. This hasn't exactly been the golden age as far as the Redskins gaining fans. The thing is Redskins fans are some of the most loyal in the business. We always hate our players and our coaches but love the team.

I singled both you and CRT3 out in this thread, I don't deny that whatsoever. CRT3 didn't seem upset by what I said and I feel that he and I mended a fence to a point because of what I said and him responding.

I also feel you have the right to disagree with me just as much as I have the right to disagree with you. That's what I like about this board. The problem is it turns into an I'm right you're wrong argument, which isn't the way it should be. You seem to have an overly confrontational attitude, that's how you are. I've made points, using numbers, and you've still refused to say that there was anything wrong with Gibbs offense. A fact most people have slowly come to reverse and admit that it wasn't all that last year. Am I saying it can't change, not at all. I hope he opens it up and becomes the master of adjustments once again - from what I saw last year we didn't get much of that.

Though you haven't said straight up "Daseal, you're not a Redskin fan." You've done similar things, and I promise you that less than 1% of this board isn't what you'd call fairweather. Granted I haven't had the luxury of remember the skins games since the early 80s (born in 83) I have watched them for as long as I can remember. I distinctly remember when Gibbs won his 3rd superbowl I was very young, and all the adults were pissed because I won the super bowl party pool! I got like 200 bucks... which for your information equates to one hell of a lot of gummi bears!

Either way, I have nothing personal against you and I hope you don't against me. I will gladly argue with you all the time, and all I ask is you don't take it personal. I'm sorry if you took my previous thread personally, I certainly didn't mean it in that sense.

[SmootSmack]

It's about to be a (What)...Girl Fight!