Disgusting

[JWsleep]

Daseal: Pat Tillman was killed in Afghanistan. I believe that is certainly relevant to 9/11.

Also, while I'm in complete agreement about freedom of the press and freedom of speech and conscience, I feel it is the responsibility of those who disagree with the student at Amhearst to speak out against those views. That's how a free society works. If you say something I disagree with, I don't silence you; I respond in kind. And for the record, I don't think people are "entitled" to hold false views. You are not entitled to believe that 2+2=5.

So, is this student's view false? Well, Tillman had every oportunity NOT to serve his country. He gave up a lucrative job that I am sure provided all the macho thrills he needed. Further, his fame and fortune in the NFL are the dream of macho, jock Rambo-types all over the country. And instead he gave that up, and then gave the ultimate sacrifice for his country. While one may well disagree with the policies of our government, TIllman simply was a soldier who did what was ordered of him.

As for the word "hero," we hear it constantly in sports. For once, the term may be applied correctly to an athlete. And, for the record, I am quite sure that if Tillman were here to day, he would reject the label. My impression is that he just wanted to do his part. We need soldiers to protect us in a world where fanatics are willing to fly planes into buildings. And soldiering is a nasty, difficult, incredibly dangerous job. Tillman volunteered for it, despite his success in the NFL. From my perspective, that's heroic.

[cpayne5]

Daseal - Tillman was killed in Afghanistan (who was harboring al-qaeda and would be still if we hadn't gone in there). He was in Iraq for a while, but was ambushed in and subsequently killed in Afghanistan. If you think that going into Afghanistan was not justified, then you obviously don't know the facts.

Way to use one stereotype to condemn another:
"Or is it going back to after 9/11 when the rednecks beat up anyone who looked as if they were from the middle east."

[cpayne5]

"The Cardinals said they will retire Tillman's No. 40 and name the plaza surrounding the new stadium under construction in suburban Glendale the "Pat Tillman Freedom Plaza." "

The Cardinals just earned a little respect, in my book.

[Riggo44]

Originally Posted by cpayne5

Daseal -
Way to use one stereotype to condemn another:
"Or is it going back to after 9/11 when the rednecks beat up anyone who looked as if they were from the middle east."

No Kidding!!

[RedskinRat]

I am more concerned at this guys obsession with Rambo. Was he unable to deal with the subject matter and thus scarred by it psychologically? Has he got an inferiority complex due to being a 98lb weakling? It's a strange kind of rant, very immature, he's got some deep seated problems that will require the help of a therapist.

I still would like to beat the snot out of him though. Not because he looks a certain way, but because he's obnoxious.

[JoeRedskin]

Daseal -

I agree and disagree with you. As to the kid having a right to say what he wants about Tillman. Yup. He does. I don't have to respect it, but he can say it. From what I read of the article, I happen to agree with the president of the college who described the article as "intellectually immature".

As to heroism, you make the mistake of tying heroism to a heroic death. While it is likely true that Tillman died just as many other soldiers have died in the line of duty, it is not the actual events of his death that make him heroic. Rather, it is the choices he made in life and which eventually resulted in his death that made him heroic.

Everyone, whether they do so knowingly or with some alterior motives, who joins the armed forces has made, on some level, certain choices and sacrifices and, accordingly, is in the same way "heroic" as Tillman was. In an extreme way, however, Tillman reflected the choices and sacrifices faced by all who don the uniform of our military and place their lives in our service.

Unlike the vast majority of those who have died, Tilman bypassed a life of ease and false hero-worship given to entertainers. Tillman sacrificed the luxuries given to such individuals and chose to place his life at the disposal of his country in hopes that, by doing so, he would better serve his fellow countrymen/women. By making this choice, Tillman exhibited a selflessness which, if practiced by all of us, would make our country and this world a better place. Further, the he choice made, though easy for Tillman, is incomprehensible to many of us. Can you honestly say you would sacrifice the 3.6 million and fame commensurate with being professional football player in order to serve your country in a life threatening job for low pay and relative anonymity (even if you believed the cause just)? While I would like to honestly answer "Yes". I am not sure I can.

The fact that Tillman could and did answer "yes" to this question and then followed his answer through to it its deadly end is what makes him heroic and his death tragic.
He is a hero because his choices and sacrifices set an ideal which all of us can and should strive to emulate even if we cannot hope to duplicate it.

[Ghost]

I think Pat Tillman is a hero more for the way he lived his life than the manner in which he was killed. The bottom line is that he walked away from millions of dollars so that he could do what he really felt called to do. I think we'd all like to think that we're capable of such a thing, but frankly I think 99% of people would take the money. Pat Tillman didn't seem to want the money or fame ... he wanted to be a regular guy, and he was, just like so many others who've been killed in combat.

I hate the war in Iraq for reasons I've stated elsewhere but I have nothing but respect for our soldiers and for people who've made the ultimate sacrifice like Pat Tillman. My anger is reserved for those who put them in harm's way for reasons that I despise. The kid who wrote that article must have some serious issues ... let's not kick his ass though lest we reinforce whatever prejudice he already holds. He has a right to express his opinion, no matter how stupid and pointless it may seem to us.

[backrow]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

Daseal -

I agree and disagree with you. As to the kid having a right to say what he wants about Tillman. Yup. He does. I don't have to respect it, but he can say it. From what I read of the article, I happen to agree with the president of the college who described the article as "intellectually immature".

As to heroism, you make the mistake of tying heroism to a heroic death. While it is likely true that Tillman died just as many other soldiers have died in the line of duty, it is not the actual events of his death that make him heroic. Rather, it is the choices he made in life and which eventually resulted in his death that made him heroic.

Everyone, whether they do so knowingly or with some alterior motives, who joins the armed forces has made, on some level, certain choices and sacrifices and, accordingly, is in the same way "heroic" as Tillman was. In an extreme way, however, Tillman reflected the choices and sacrifices faced by all who don the uniform of our military and place their lives in our service.

Unlike the vast majority of those who have died, Tilman bypassed a life of ease and false hero-worship given to entertainers. Tillman sacrificed the luxuries given to such individuals and chose to place his life at the disposal of his country in hopes that, by doing so, he would better serve his fellow countrymen/women. By making this choice, Tillman exhibited a selflessness which, if practiced by all of us, would make our country and this world a better place. Further, the he choice made, though easy for Tillman, is incomprehensible to many of us. Can you honestly say you would sacrifice the 3.6 million and fame commensurate with being professional football player in order to serve your country in a life threatening job for low pay and relative anonymity (even if you believed the cause just)? While I would like to honestly answer "Yes". I am not sure I can.

The fact that Tillman could and did answer "yes" to this question and then followed his answer through to it its deadly end is what makes him heroic and his death tragic.
He is a hero because his choices and sacrifices set an ideal which all of us can and should strive to emulate even if we cannot hope to duplicate it.

I am a Veteran, and would be proud to go an serve again along side of anyone like Pat Tillman!
Unfortunately I'm too old, by military standards.
Would I want either my son, or son-in-law to go and serve as a result of 9-11? That would be up to them, but I would support whichever decision they made.
DaSeal disagrees with war, any war.
My contention is we were tossed into this war by an attack here on our own soil, unlike any other we have ever experienced.
In trying to rid the Middle East of the terror that was imposed upon us, we have reaped the casualties of war.
We did not ask to be in this war, but we are going to finish it!
That my friend is American Patriotism, and American Resolve!

I work for the Navy, and support my military every day!
As a Veteran and a Christian, I support my President and his prayerfully made decisions!

But I would fight for Daseal to hold his opinions!

Not all Christians feel we did exactly the right thing in either the Crusades, or in winning the West from the Native Americans.
But I know some Native Americans, and they support the same Ideals that I do, except they are free to worship as they please to their gods.
I know some Muslims, and they are free to worship as they see.

But, again, I would go back into the military today if called!
9-11-01 Will not be forgotten!
We are just not able to get out of Iraq easily, or out of Afghanistan without finishing the job. Part of the casualities of war. It takes a while to come to an end when you had no plan of action before being attacked!

[Daseal]

You're both totally correct. It was Afghanistan, I forgot. Yes, they do have many ties to 9/11. So him being there is justified. Chances are if we weren't in Iraq he would be somewhere different though, but that's too much guessing.
"Or is it going back to after 9/11 when the rednecks beat up anyone who looked as if they were from the middle east."
Cpayne - This is very true. I didn't say every redneck, but I heard of multiple instances of even children being afraid to go to school because their family is as ignorant as they come. Suddenly because a few fanatics do something that most Muslims think is absolutly abominable all Muslims are demonfied. That's like saying all American's are fanatic Christians like we have running the White House. It simply isn't true. There were quite a few examples of people from the middle east being both physically and psycologically worn down after 9/11. I must say I'm a bit sad that you seem to support this.

When the word is used in Sports, they normally say "sports hero" which is different from a real hero. Don't get me wrong, I think the Tillman had a noble cause, but I can also see the other side of the fence.

I retract my statement about not being there. That pertains to Iraq, not Afghanistan.

[Gmanc711]

Ok, heres my take....

I agree that maybe Tillman got too much press and was treated differnetly than the other soilders, and on SOME level, I dissagree with it. Not to Tillmans exposure, but the lack of exposure others who die for the country do not get.

To not call this guy a hero, is absolultey ludacris. Not to call anyone over there right now a hero, is absolutley ludacris. I dont really give a crap if a soilder goes over there and dosent fight a single fight , and anothe rgoes and gets in 100 battles. They are both equal heros in my book. The fact of the matter is, they are willing to go over there and put their asses on the line every single day for our country, somthing I'm not willing to do unless I'm forced into it. So for people to do this voluntaraly and be called " Rambo " and " Idiots " really, really pisses me off.

Now, this little SOB might not realize, but people like Tillman are the only reason that he gets to publish his stupid article. They are the people who fight for these rights. That article is nothing more than that, stupid. I dont know what Pat Tillman, or any other soilder did to this kid, but its down right sick that someone could say that stuff.

"He was acting out his macho, patriotic crap and I guess someone with a bigger gun did him in."

I honestly have nothing to say after reading this quote. I really dont.

[cpayne5]

Dawalrus, err, daseal --
"I must say I'm a bit sad that you seem to support this."

Where did I 'seem to support this'?
I was attacking your argument with your own inconsistencies.
I never condoned the instances of violence taken against Muslim-Americans in the days following 911.

[Daseal]

Daseal, you really have to stay off politic's until you you learn to think properly, your industrial machine anology is ridiculous, you equate what tillman did to essentially falling off a ladder, you might wan't to think about putting it in these term's, if someone get's killed because he was stuck in an industrial machine as you put it, for no reason other than his own stupidity than no he's not really a hero, although the only reason he might have been in that position is because he had to put his life at risk to care for his family, or as well he could have been killed in a machine saving the life of another co-worker and doing so gave his own life, your a FOOL if you think for 1 second Iraq or Afganastan have nothing to do with our freedom, of saftey! Tell me Daseal would you be in favor of bombing afganastan if we uncovered the plot to take down the WTC before it happened? and wiping out bin laden and his ilk before they struck? I doubt it! yet they were no more a threat to us than Iraq was, unless you wan't to count the first time he bombed the WTC, or when he bombed the USS cole, then a man comes along and throw's away everything to fight for his country, and to put his life on the line to see that american's don't die like they did in the WTC again, and you say the word hero is used losely and he doesn't deserve hero status? I really don't know where your head is at, GREATER LOVE HAS NO MAN THAT HE GIVE UP HIS LIFE FOR HIS FRIEND'S!

AMERICA! LOVE IT, OR GET OUT!!!!!!!!!!!

American, Love it or get out? This statement is the most flawed you overly patriotic people like to overuse. Part of my civil rights include being able to criticize anything I like and have no sort of backlash from it. America right now is one of the most hated countries in the world. You think this is without merit? We're taking over the roll of the world police, and we have no place to force democracy where the people don't want it. It's not our place.

Now, if we love our civil rights so much. How come we go into Iraq and shut down newspapers because they don't make the US out to be some lovely country working for the good of the Iraqi people. I've said in other threads I've talked to multiple marines that think this war is absolutely useless. They have mentioned that Iraq is a lot like the US, not like the media likes to portray it. I haven't seen it for myself, but I know at least 3 people that have spent time over there, and their stories all seem to agree.

I'm in favor of bombing when we have evidence. I'm sorry, but killing a bunch of children on a hunch isn't exactly my idea of a good move. There are other ways to diffuse these terrorist situations. We could start respecting the rest of the world. There's a reason the other major nations in the UN didn't support us. It's because we don't even have a leg to stand on.

You're right. The machine analogy isn't the best. People know that there is a chance that they will be called into duty. However, he was doing his JOB which we can all agree on. From what I know of the Iraqi war (the only first hand accounts I have, I'm assuming Afghanistan is somewhat similar) they sit around and play cards a lot, and don't see a whole lot of action. If the Rangers are involved, it's probably a known hot bed. So he knew what he was getting into. Before you rock me for "not being patriotic" I tell you right now my family comes from a long line of Military people. One grandfather in the Korean War was found with 30 dead Koreans around him in order to save his commander. Another Grandfather heavily decorated for his bombing in WW2, silver star, etc. However, I'm not trying to play favorites through associaition. I am very against this war, and most wars. Unless I am in imminent danger, there's no need. I believe the monroe doctrine was absolutely the best policy the US ever adopted.

We're a strong and powerful nation, in military terms, perhaps the best. We need to sell our military off and help people in other aspects. Not to mention it's costing 40 billion a month along with hundreds of troops. If you see that as worth it, maybe you should look at your politics, buddy.

If someone wanted to do something similar to the WTC, it wouldn't be that hard. As shown people can slip things by Airport security (ie that 18 year old who while demonstrating the problems in the airlines security is now getting sued.) Isn't great. Not to mention another WTC type attack would deystroy our economy. I believe it was the Wall Street Journal that had an article which said if we had another Airplane related terrorist strike 4 major airlines would go out of business within a week. The terrorists know this. They are very smart, not just cave dwelling idiots as commonly thought.

Answer me this. Why was the first thing Bush did was fly Bin laden's family out of the country after 9/11. The Bin laden's know the BUshs. Hell, Bush Sr. used to fund little Usama. But that doesn't matter. "You can be a terrorist, as long as it's for the US then it's OK" -Dead Prez

We used to hire this guy to do awful acts against Russia. But that's ok, right?

Come on, as a country our political vision is skewed and we need to learn how to mind our own business. Pat Tillman, I feel bad for the family, but he isn't any more of a hero than Joe Schmoe who died.

[offiss]

Originally Posted by Daseal

American, Love it or get out? This statement is the most flawed you overly patriotic people like to overuse. Part of my civil rights include being able to criticize anything I like and have no sort of backlash from it. America right now is one of the most hated countries in the world. You think this is without merit? We're taking over the roll of the world police, and we have no place to force democracy where the people don't want it. It's not our place.

Now, if we love our civil rights so much. How come we go into Iraq and shut down newspapers because they don't make the US out to be some lovely country working for the good of the Iraqi people. I've said in other threads I've talked to multiple marines that think this war is absolutely useless. They have mentioned that Iraq is a lot like the US, not like the media likes to portray it. I haven't seen it for myself, but I know at least 3 people that have spent time over there, and their stories all seem to agree.

I'm in favor of bombing when we have evidence. I'm sorry, but killing a bunch of children on a hunch isn't exactly my idea of a good move. There are other ways to diffuse these terrorist situations. We could start respecting the rest of the world. There's a reason the other major nations in the UN didn't support us. It's because we don't even have a leg to stand on.

You're right. The machine analogy isn't the best. People know that there is a chance that they will be called into duty. However, he was doing his JOB which we can all agree on. From what I know of the Iraqi war (the only first hand accounts I have, I'm assuming Afghanistan is somewhat similar) they sit around and play cards a lot, and don't see a whole lot of action. If the Rangers are involved, it's probably a known hot bed. So he knew what he was getting into. Before you rock me for "not being patriotic" I tell you right now my family comes from a long line of Military people. One grandfather in the Korean War was found with 30 dead Koreans around him in order to save his commander. Another Grandfather heavily decorated for his bombing in WW2, silver star, etc. However, I'm not trying to play favorites through associaition. I am very against this war, and most wars. Unless I am in imminent danger, there's no need. I believe the monroe doctrine was absolutely the best policy the US ever adopted.

We're a strong and powerful nation, in military terms, perhaps the best. We need to sell our military off and help people in other aspects. Not to mention it's costing 40 billion a month along with hundreds of troops. If you see that as worth it, maybe you should look at your politics, buddy.

If someone wanted to do something similar to the WTC, it wouldn't be that hard. As shown people can slip things by Airport security (ie that 18 year old who while demonstrating the problems in the airlines security is now getting sued.) Isn't great. Not to mention another WTC type attack would deystroy our economy. I believe it was the Wall Street Journal that had an article which said if we had another Airplane related terrorist strike 4 major airlines would go out of business within a week. The terrorists know this. They are very smart, not just cave dwelling idiots as commonly thought.

Answer me this. Why was the first thing Bush did was fly Bin laden's family out of the country after 9/11. The Bin laden's know the BUshs. Hell, Bush Sr. used to fund little Usama. But that doesn't matter. "You can be a terrorist, as long as it's for the US then it's OK" -Dead Prez

We used to hire this guy to do awful acts against Russia. But that's ok, right?

Come on, as a country our political vision is skewed and we need to learn how to mind our own business. Pat Tillman, I feel bad for the family, but he isn't any more of a hero than Joe Schmoe who died.

it's only skewed by liberal thinking that want's to excuse the good we do for the world and the lives we sacrifice so that million's of other's may live a free life, and have an opportunity of religous freedom, not to come under the hand of a dictator, who executes anyone who has anything to say other than the party line, It's to bad you can't see that we are the police of the world, being an american doesn't just mean taking care of american's, it mean's looking out in the world and doing our best to see that other's may some day have the same opportunities as we. Are we perfect? no. but we have a history of trying to do the right thing, and trying to correct the thing's we do wrong, and using the god givin abundance we have in this country for the good of all man kind, maybe you believe men like sadam, and bin laden, as well as castro, and on and on are fine, and all is well with men like this, and nothing should ever be done no matter how many attrocities they committ, and how many they will committ if left alone, so long as it's not an american that is slaughtered you are fine with that, a guy like you will never understand the mind set of people like this until they manage to set off some kind of nucleur device in 1 of our major cities, then all we will here out of someone like you, is why didn't the bush administration do something, and they had to know about this plot, when not only does the current administration have to deal with people who if they had thier wish would destroy us in a heartbeat, but they have to first fight people like yourself trying to protect these mad men. As for the UN it wouldn't exist if it wasen't for all the money we pump into it trying to keep some kind of communication open for world peace, and I am sorry they didn't approve our war against afgan. after they took down the WTC, and I was so heartbroken about all those innocent people jumping around in the street's applauding bin laden, who may have been caught in the line of fire, but I ask you who is worse the US for doing everything we can to avoid civilian casualties, [including jepordizing the lives of our own soldier's] to secure peace, not just for us but for the world as well, or these coward's who are such humanitierin's that they use woman and children as shield's to hide behind and act like warrior's? YEA, THERE JUST LIKE AMERICAN'S!

Are you aware that bin laden's own family excommunicated him from saudi arabia a year's ago? Why? because his own family knew he was a nut job, how do you think he wound up in afgan. to begin with?

[cpayne5]

"overly patriotic"

You're criticizing us for being overly patriotic, when if we would call you not patriotic enough, you'd be jumping up and down crying foul.

[cpayne5]

Like I said in a private email a couple of weeks ago, daseal, if you want to argue in a non-aggressive manner - in which no personal insults are exchanged - I'll be happy to oblige. If you actually listen to my ideas and FACTS then you may see our situation in a whole new light.

I know the first thing you're going to say is that I don't listen to your ideas. In fact I do; they're just laden with too many fallacies and/or inconsistencies to take to heart.