Redskins Trademark cancelled

[Chico23231]

Originally Posted by over the mountain

I just listened to Amanda Blackhorse and the Redskins trademark attorney on the junkies.

I am leaning towards the position that we need to change our name.

She said no native american calls each other the R word and that the largest Native American governing body calls the name disparaging and wants the name changed.

The redskins attorney radzoch (sp?) just sounded bad. He said while the term "redskin" may be disparaging in some contexts, you must view the word in the context that the football team is using it - honor.

when asked if he would call a native american a redskin to his face - he waffled and never answered.

If the largest governing body of Native Americans dont like it, if you wouldnt call a native american a redskin to his or her face and native americans dont call themselves redskin = disparaging.

Who are we as non-native americans to tell them what to think or feel or try and play spin doctor by saying we use the word with honor.

You want to honor native americans? honor their voice and change the name.

Pointing to historical context of the word from 1814 for justification of the use of the word in 2014 is grasping for straws.

In 2014:
The largest native American governing body wants it changed.
Native Americans dont call themselves the R word.
You wouldnt call a Native American a redskin to their face.

All that pride and honor and historical roots talk is just us telling native americans we know whats best for them more than they do for themselves. Thats a down right prejudicial and demeaning approach.

The question of would you call a native american a redskin to their face is so absurd. Only a dumb f u c k would come up with that question.

The guy should have responded "why should I call a native american a redskin to their face? The only reason to call a native american a redskins would be if he was on the football team. Contextually would not make sense because no one uses the term redskin other than to describe someone who plays for the franchise"

[irish]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

There is a certain 'segment' of the population who simply feel that their world vision is the only one that matters and that everyone who doesn't agree with it needs to just get over it. "It's just a word! Whatever happened was years ago! Why can't we just move on?" They feel that anyone who is offended 'by a word' is just a limp wristed pansy-ass who needs to pull up their big boy britches and grow the hell up.

These are the same tough guys who wouldn't dare walk up to a Native American or into a Native American setting and use or try to defend the use of the term Redskin.

True dat about those "tough guys". No way would anyone call a Native American a Redskin to their face. The same way people dont go around tossing out the N-word to a African American's face, chink or Jap to an Asian or Spic to a Hispanic.

[Skinzman]

Originally Posted by irish

True dat about those "tough guys". No way would anyone call a Native American a Redskin to their face. The same way people dont go around tossing out the N-word to a African American's face, chink or Jap to an Asian or Spic to a Hispanic.

I wouldnt go up to an Indian and call him a Native American to his face. As plenty (certainly not all) have said that is a derogatory term to Indians. Russell Means flat out said it was racist, and also said if anyone called him Native American to his face, they would have a fight on their hands.

I understand there isnt money to be made off of fighting the term Native American so no one cares about the Indians opinion of it. But would the ones who clearly dont care about what Indians think quit telling me im racist to Indians while using a term that some Indians (again, not all) do, in fact, call racist.

[over the mountain]

Originally Posted by Chico23231

The question of would you call a native american a redskin to their face is so absurd. Only a dumb f u c k would come up with that question.

The guy should have responded "why should I call a native american a redskin to their face? The only reason to call a native american a redskins would be if he was on the football team. Contextually would not make sense because no one uses the term redskin other than to describe someone who plays for the franchise"

I may have agreed with you a few years or even a few months ago but now, after hearing and reading more into it, I disagree. I think the question is a salient one.

Limiting the context of the word to the "redskins football team" is very narrow, limited and self-serving approach by any redskin fan imo.

You also waffled and misdirected instead of answering the question. if it truly is not a disparaging term for native americans then your answer should be "yes, i absolutely would call a native american a redskin to his or her face."

In white america the word is generally accepted as referring to the football team. I am white america. it took some time and consideration of what non-white america was saying for me to see the other side's point.

How redskins' fans view or use the word is missing the point entirely. Of course you see nothing wrong with the word.



i think some redskins fans need to step back from the issue and reconsider their view on this in an objective manner. if you still feel the way you do, that is 100% your right and I would respect that. i dont think i can respect someone for taking their expected position right away and never re-considering the issue.

i get that we dont view the term in a bad way, we dont use it in a bad way, initially i was also circling the wagons defending the name. ultimately it is not for us to decide this issue. if a segment of native americans want it changed, i dont have a right to tell them to not be offended.

edit - chico i like you but dont call me a dumb fuck. use words and thoughts to express your point.

[MTK]

The fact there are so many differing opinions says a lot. It's not a black and white matter like the pro-name change people want to make it. It's also why I don't see the name changing anytime soon.

[Chico23231]

Originally Posted by over the mountain

I may have agreed with you a few years or even a few months ago but now, after hearing and reading more into it, I disagree. I think the question is a salient one.

Limiting the context of the word to the "redskins football team" is very narrow, limited and self-serving approach by any redskin fan imo.

You also waffled and misdirected instead of answering the question. if it truly is not a disparaging term for native americans then your answer should be "yes, i absolutely would call a native american a redskin to his or her face."

In white america the word is generally accepted as referring to the football team. I am white america. it took some time and consideration of what non-white america was saying for me to see the other side's point.

How redskins' fans view or use the word is missing the point entirely. Of course you see nothing wrong with the word.



i think some redskins fans need to step back from the issue and reconsider their view on this in an objective manner. if you still feel the way you do, that is 100% your right and I would respect that. i dont think i can respect someone for taking their expected position right away and never re-considering the issue.

i get that we dont view the term in a bad way, we dont use it in a bad way, initially i was also circling the wagons defending the name. ultimately it is not for us to decide this issue. if a segment of native americans want it changed, i dont have a right to tell them to not be offended.

edit - chico i like you but dont call me a dumb fuck. use words and thoughts to express your point.

You gave the interview?

I said the person who asked that question is a dumbf8ck, you listened to a radio interview right?

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by Mattyk

I'm amazed that some fans are already willing to give up just because they're tired of hearing about this issue.

Are you really willing to let this vocal minority win out with little to no new evidence than what was presented 15 years ago when this last happened?

If we roll over on this what's next?

Isn't 80 years of tradition worth fighting for?

I am not one who "rolls over" or goes along with PC crowd generally speaking, but here, for me, is why this is different.

I want to enjoy the game. I want to see my team win. I want to listen to announcers talk about the merits of our team, mostly I prefer that they speak positive about the on the field actions of the squad. As a Skins fan for the last 15 years that hasn't been a lot of the time. What I don't want is to have to listen to Brian Costas rail on my team at halftime, for some BS campaign that has nothing at all to do with the team. I get it, that makes me a quitter, a guy who surrenders traditions, etc. Except, I will still remember the SB's won by the Redskins, I will still enjoy reliving moments like Riggins Run, or Darrell Green's broken rib touchdown.

I just don't want my enjoyment of the team mired in the PC crowd's bog. Find a name that can link to the traditions, put a peace pipe on the helmet for all I care, just let me enjoy my team and put all this stuff in the wastebasket of history.

I can argue the merits of keeping the name all day long with those who think it ought to be changed, but bottomline, that's NOT why I watch the Redskins, or root for them every week, or even come on this board. I root for the team because I am a fan of the team, and if a name change lets the world move on and our team be celebrated/decried for the merits of the on the field action, then put me in that crowd.

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by over the mountain

I just listened to Amanda Blackhorse and the Redskins trademark attorney on the junkies.

I am leaning towards the position that we need to change our name.

She said no native american calls each other the R word and that the largest Native American governing body calls the name disparaging and wants the name changed.

The redskins attorney radzoch (sp?) just sounded bad. He said while the term "redskin" may be disparaging in some contexts, you must view the word in the context that the football team is using it - honor.

when asked if he would call a native american a redskin to his face - he waffled and never answered.

If the largest governing body of Native Americans dont like it, if you wouldnt call a native american a redskin to his or her face and native americans dont call themselves redskin = disparaging.

Who are we as non-native americans to tell them what to think or feel or try and play spin doctor by saying we use the word with honor.

You want to honor native americans? honor their voice and change the name.

Pointing to historical context of the word from 1814 for justification of the use of the word in 2014 is grasping for straws.

In 2014:
The largest native American governing body wants it changed.
Native Americans dont call themselves the R word.
You wouldnt call a Native American a redskin to their face.

All that pride and honor and historical roots talk is just us telling native americans we know whats best for them more than they do for themselves. Thats a down right prejudicial and demeaning approach.

I don't know about the first line. I think there are many governing bodies, and really ought to have a full blown poll to see where there sentiment truly lies.

Problem is that several Native American high schools do call themselves Redskins.

I honestly can't say whether I would call a Native American a redskin to their face, but I can tell you that if I wanted to degrade them I would NOT say that damn/stupid/dumbass redskin, because of the respect that I have for the term based on the NFL team called the Redskins.

[irish]

[QUOTE=Mattyk;1074357]The fact there are so many differing opinions says a lot. It's not a black and white matter like the pro-name change people want to make it. It's also why I don't see the name changing anytime soon.[/QUOTE

After reading all these posts it seems to me this is a black & white issue, change it or dont. Some dont give a damn either way so I dont consider them having an opinion. I see all the differing opinions only in how the name change should happen.

[MTK]

It it were a simple black and white issue I don't think it would have dragged on for the last 25 years.

[Hog1]

[quote=irish;1074363]

Originally Posted by Mattyk

The fact there are so many differing opinions says a lot. It's not a black and white matter like the pro-name change people want to make it. It's also why I don't see the name changing anytime soon.[/QUOTE

After reading all these posts it seems to me this is a black & white issue, change it or dont. Some dont give a damn either way so I dont consider them having an opinion. I see all the differing opinions only in how the name change should happen.

...........you have missed the point

[itvnetop]

Originally Posted by irish

True dat about those "tough guys". No way would anyone call a Native American a Redskin to their face. The same way people dont go around tossing out the N-word to a African American's face, chink or Jap to an Asian or Spic to a Hispanic.

Interestingly enough, there was a thread regarding the word "jap" on this very board almost 10 years ago to the day. Bill Parcells said the following:

"Mike wants the defense to do well, and Sean, he's going to have a few ... no disrespect for the Orientals, but what we call Jap plays. OK. Surprise things."

Aside from the anachronistic use of "Orientals," the majority of the posters saw absolutely nothing wrong with the term Jap. I was totally offended by it, but I was getting lectured on how the word was used in wartime to describe the enemy, how Parcells was using an analogy for trickery (which in itself has racist undertones), etc.

Once my Marine buddies returned State-side, many of them used the word "haji" to describe citizens of Afghanistan and Iraq... although the actual term (hajji describes one who has made the trek to Mecca), they used the word to dehumanize an enemy during a time of combat. Same with Japs, same with skinnies, same with Krauts. I'm passing no judgment on a soldier's usage of words to fit their psyches in a time of war. My problem is with the acceptance of such words in any context outside of imminent death.

We're not solving the real issues facing Native Americans- poverty, alcoholism, lack of education.
I often see this used as a deterrent for name change. Because there is no immediate solution for socio-economic destitution (created by chapters of stolen lands, broken treaties and overall annihilation), this fight has no bearing? How about we start seeing this group as humans instead of one codified by trademarks and helmet mascots.

But Redskins are a (random) Native American high school's nickname.
Yeah, that's what a few hundred years of pop culture indoctrination can do to your self-perception.

The name should change only if Native Americans themselves are offended.
First off, where is this in the societal norm rule book? If someone drops the n bomb towards one of my black friends, I'm taking umbrage. As for the 2004 Annenberg poll, 90% of 750+ respondents were not offended. This poll has been used ad nauseam by name supporters. This was just released two weeks ago. This poll has a smaller sample size, but the numbers are very different. With more NAs being against the name, the pro-Redskin argument shifts to...

"Redskins" was created by Native Americans to distinguish themselves from the white settlers. The terms symbolizes courage and honor. Why would an owner use a derogatory name for his own team?
This is a pretty good example of why I'm all for dropping the Redskins name. I don't care where or how a word is rooted- Redskin, Jap, Colored. As language develops, words change meaning over time. It isn't a case of political correctness run amok- it's a cultural phenomenon that exists within etymology.

Political correctness is getting out of hand!
Settle down... according to SportsNation, it's only 1/3 out of hand. But what happens in one year when that becomes 2/3? I feel like pro-name supporters keep moving the goal posts whenever public sentiment shifts further and further away from them.

[hutch17]

Originally Posted by over the mountain

I may have agreed with you a few years or even a few months ago but now, after hearing and reading more into it, I disagree. I think the question is a salient one.

Limiting the context of the word to the "redskins football team" is very narrow, limited and self-serving approach by any redskin fan imo.

You also waffled and misdirected instead of answering the question. if it truly is not a disparaging term for native americans then your answer should be "yes, i absolutely would call a native american a redskin to his or her face."

In white america the word is generally accepted as referring to the football team. I am white america. it took some time and consideration of what non-white america was saying for me to see the other side's point.

How redskins' fans view or use the word is missing the point entirely. Of course you see nothing wrong with the word.



i think some redskins fans need to step back from the issue and reconsider their view on this in an objective manner. if you still feel the way you do, that is 100% your right and I would respect that. i dont think i can respect someone for taking their expected position right away and never re-considering the issue.

i get that we dont view the term in a bad way, we dont use it in a bad way, initially i was also circling the wagons defending the name. ultimately it is not for us to decide this issue. if a segment of native americans want it changed, i dont have a right to tell them to not be offended.

edit - chico i like you but dont call me a dumb fuck. use words and thoughts to express your point.

Calling an indian to his/her face would never occur to me because I don't really associate that tem with indians. If i were to get into a fight or argument with one I would'nt say f'n redskins it would more than likely be f'n indian unlike other ethnic groups where to racial slur might come out more of anger because when your made you want to inflict as much damage as possible and to me redskins doesn't have any punch.

[Chico23231]

Originally Posted by itvnetop

Interestingly enough, there was a thread regarding the word "jap" on this very board almost 10 years ago to the day. Bill Parcells said the following:

"Mike wants the defense to do well, and Sean, he's going to have a few ... no disrespect for the Orientals, but what we call Jap plays. OK. Surprise things."

Aside from the anachronistic use of "Orientals," the majority of the posters saw absolutely nothing wrong with the term Jap. I was totally offended by it, but I was getting lectured on how the word was used in wartime to describe the enemy, how Parcells was using an analogy for trickery (which in itself has racist undertones), etc.

Once my Marine buddies returned State-side, many of them used the word "haji" to describe citizens of Afghanistan and Iraq... although the actual term (hajji describes one who has made the trek to Mecca), they used the word to dehumanize an enemy during a time of combat. Same with Japs, same with skinnies, same with Krauts. I'm passing no judgment on a soldier's usage of words to fit their psyches in a time of war. My problem is with the acceptance of such words in any context outside of imminent death.

We're not solving the real issues facing Native Americans- poverty, alcoholism, lack of education.
I often see this used as a deterrent for name change. Because there is no immediate solution for socio-economic destitution (created by chapters of stolen lands, broken treaties and overall annihilation), this fight has no bearing? How about we start seeing this group as humans instead of one codified by trademarks and helmet mascots.

But Redskins are a (random) Native American high school's nickname.
Yeah, that's what a few hundred years of pop culture indoctrination can do to your self-perception.

The name should change only if Native Americans themselves are offended.
First off, where is this in the societal norm rule book? If someone drops the n bomb towards one of my black friends, I'm taking umbrage. As for the 2004 Annenberg poll, 90% of 750+ respondents were not offended. This poll has been used ad nauseam by name supporters. This was just released two weeks ago. This poll has a smaller sample size, but the numbers are very different. With more NAs being against the name, the pro-Redskin argument shifts to...

"Redskins" was created by Native Americans to distinguish themselves from the white settlers. The terms symbolizes courage and honor. Why would an owner use a derogatory name for his own team?
This is a pretty good example of why I'm all for dropping the Redskins name. I don't care where or how a word is rooted- Redskin, Jap, Colored. As language develops, words change meaning over time. It isn't a case of political correctness run amok- it's a cultural phenomenon that exists within etymology.

Political correctness is getting out of hand!
Settle down... according to SportsNation, it's only 1/3 out of hand. But what happens in one year when that becomes 2/3? I feel like pro-name supporters keep moving the goal posts whenever public sentiment shifts further and further away from them.

ivnetop, why would you ever become a fan of a team with such an offensive name? Are you saying within the last year redskins is officially an offensive term?

[itvnetop]

Originally Posted by Chico23231

ivnetop, why would you ever become a fan of a team with such an offensive name? Are you saying within the last year redskins is officially an offensive term?

I grew up with the team since childhood... was at RFK to feel the stands rocking. Lived through the glory years with The Posse and The Hogs. Couldn't sleep after sneaking off to watch MNF, only to witness LT ending Joe Theismann's career. My heart dropped when Marcus Allen eviscerated the team in the Super Bowl. It sang when Doug Williams dropped 4 tugs in one quarter several years later. I mourned through Sean Taylor's death. I've stuck with the team through nearly two decades of mediocrity and below.

The emotional highs and lows, the camaraderie I felt back home and now at my local "R-bar" in LA, the screaming at a stationary box (from 13 inches of analog to 52" of high definition precision)- these are memories built every Sunday with friends and family. An inanimate mascot or name had little to do with it.

Yes, I used to sing HTTR when I was younger. But now I don't say the word out loud because I cringe before doing so. I'm not sure what happened, but I've been off the Redskin name bandwagon for a very long time (if you dig up old archives, my ancient posts reflect such). From soccer pubs to Red Sox and Yankee bars, fan bases around the world are built on local ties first and foremost. The team represents where you are, your neighbors and community. Of course there are always exceptions of fans outside the team's audience, but for the most part it comes from a sense of local pride.

I didn't stop being a fan of DC hoops when they became the Wizards and I won't stop being a fan when Redskins is removed, either. It's just a matter of time. And I hope the majority of the fanbase will quickly resume cheering the organization after the inevitable few weeks of hate and vitriol is spewed towards an ever-changing society.