Campbell's numbers dont lie

[Redskin Warrior]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

i wasn't trying to bust your balls. but sanchez is a rookie and cutler has no NFL wr's so i don't see how the stats show who is the best qb out of the 3.

He might not have the NFL big names but he has NFL WR's put up good numbers. Cutler has something he's not alone like ppl make him out to be.

Earl Bennett WR 25 rec. 334 yards
Devin Hester WR 35 rec. 454 yards
Johnny Knox WR 24 rec. 310 yards
Greg Olsen TE 22 rec. 215 yards
Matt Forte RB 24 rec. 185 yards

Malcolm Kelly WR 7 rec. 73 yards
Devin Thomas WR 7 rec. 71 yards
Santana Moss WR 28 rec. 453 yards
Antwaan Randle EL WR 23 rec. 248 yards
Chris Cooley TE 29 rec. 332 yards
Clinton Portis RB 9 rec. 57 yards

[Trample the Elderly]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Well, right, but how much of that is because the Philly defense manages to be great every year.

If McNabb had a below .500 win percentage, but was the exact same quarterback, would people still say he was good? I really don't think they would, though certainly, I could be wrong.

None of that matters, at least to me. The only thing that matters to me is having a winning team. McNabb is a winner. Campbell is a loser. If he was so great then he'd not have been trade bait.

No matter what, he's done just like this season. He's shell shocked. There are only two more important games for me. The rest is a throw away season. If anything, I'd rather have the #1 draft pick.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Trample the Elderly

None of that matters, at least to me. The only thing that matters to me is having a winning team. McNabb is a winner. Campbell is a loser. If he was so great then he'd not have been trade bait.

No matter what, he's done just like this season. He's shell shocked. There are only two more important games for me. The rest is a throw away season. If anything, I'd rather have the #1 draft pick.

Well if that was all that mattered, you'd just root for Philly. Problem solved.

It's because other things -- like a sense of loyalty -- matter that we put up with an organization we know to be inferior. Of course, you also have to consider that one of the reasons we don't win as much as they do is because we are much slower to plug the non-quarterback holes in our roster.

You don't have to make the assumption that Campbell and McNabb are equal players to see the similarities. I'm certainly not making that assumption, but a lot of the Campbell criticisms apply to McNabb as well.

[SolidSnake84]

I'm late getting involved in this thread, but i can't see how there is anything to even compare Jason Campbell to Donovan McNabb.

Even if we look at only their NFL careers, McNabb has been surperior in every aspect to Campbell. That's obvious. His multiple Pro Bowls, Championship Games, and lone Superbowl Appearance all attest to that.

Dating back farther, in college, McNabb also put up the surperior numbers and people knew that he would be going to the NFL. It's shocking how Jason did much of the same thing he does here down in Auburn, according to Al Borges...

No comparison between Campbell and McNabb...

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by SolidSnake84

I'm late getting involved in this thread, but i can't see how there is anything to even compare Jason Campbell to Donovan McNabb.

Even if we look at only their NFL careers, McNabb has been surperior in every aspect to Campbell. That's obvious. His multiple Pro Bowls, Championship Games, and lone Superbowl Appearance all attest to that.

Dating back farther, in college, McNabb also put up the surperior numbers and people knew that he would be going to the NFL. It's shocking how Jason did much of the same thing he does here down in Auburn, according to Al Borges...

No comparison between Campbell and McNabb...

Well, when you've been a quarterback in the same place McNabb has for more than ten years, you're bound to run into a string of success.

I frequently ask myself if there's anything that he does so consistently well, game in and game out, that makes him such an irreplaceable part of the Philly offense. And I've come to the conclusion that: McNabb is a very, very good player, and has been so for a long time, but there's nothing Philly couldn't replace if, say, he went to go play overseas. They proved this, I think, with the Kolb pick. I doubt Kevin Kolb is ever going to be a hall of fame player, but he's a functional piece in a bigger machine, who happens to be blocked by McNabb.

None of this is meant to be disrespectful, as Donovan is valuable year in and year out in the Philly offense. Of course, if the Eagles had taken Ricky Williams instead, McNabb could have gone to the Bengals or the Bears, and you would have never heard from him again. On the other hand, he's a big reason that the Eagles have been able to remain so good for so long. By ignoring the QB position every year, they've been able to build a team that could easily survive a QB swap. Ironically.

For a much shorter time, Campbell offered us stability at the QB position, but if the difference between his career and McNabb's is that, when the going got tough, McNabb labored through it and Campbell fell victim to his teams' offensive suckitude, well, then you'd have to conclude that McNabb is the better player. I'm just not sure that the going ever got tough on McNabb, which is where the comparison falls apart.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

But, I think we've seen that Campbell succeeding at ball security and mid-range completions and failing at them are not the difference between the Redskins scoring points and not.

I disagree. Campbell's poor reads, bad throws, and missing open receivers has definitely left points on the field and killed drives. I'm not advocating that he's the sole problem, because we certainly have other issues. But he certainly isn't part of the solution either....and we know what you are if you're not part of the solution

should Campbell be more conservative with his mechanics giving the situation, even if it would make him a better player? Protecting the ball, and not throwing INTs gives this team it's best chance to win, but it does nothing for Jason Campbell's long term future of this team. Winning 6 games because of improvements in ball security still means a change at QB next year. And that's where the problem lies: there's no incentive to do the small things (which are 100% in his control) better because Campbell is getting blamed for the big picture things which ne has no control over. And that's because we're a horrendous organization.

When I'm talking about ball security I'm strictly talking about how JC handles the ball from his drop to release, not on his decisions on where or when to make a throw. He has the very bad habit of holding the ball much too low, patting the ball before a throw, and his long delivery which brings the ball down to almost waist level before his delivery. On the MNF broadcast Chucky had a quick segment showing the little kids doing some basic fundy drills, the thing that struck me was that each kid actually had the ball held properly at mid-chest/shoulder height with two hands, better than what we've seen from JC.

JC has all the incentive in the world to do the little things and big things right. No matter what the Redskins' record is, this season is an NFL-wide job interview for JC. One he's not performing too well in right now.

I do not, and have not disagreed with your analysis, and I think you're doing a top notch job. At this point though, I'm finding myself (naturally) less concerned with the what (bad QB play), and more with the why.

You're absolutely right, the Why is the key. I don't think the Why for Campbell's poor play is an external issue to Campbell (OL, playcalling). He's not improving on the thiings he can control (proper footwook, proper ball security, proper pre-reads and progressions). I wish I had a clear cut answer, but from what we've seen over the last five weeks the answer appears to be JC is just not going to make the improvements necessary to be a top flight NFL QB.

[30gut]

Originally Posted by SolidSnake84

It's shocking how Jason did much of the same thing he does here down in Auburn, according to Al Borges...

I gotta call BS on this statement.
You seem to imply that Borges said something negative about Campbell.
But, that is far from the truth.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=090...s&confirm=true

Borges isn't buying that Campbell can't run the scheme because the West Coast system is what he ran at Auburn when Campbell blossomed. However, Borges said he tweaked the offense to take advantage of the powerful run game and Campbell's big arm. So, instead of dinking and dunking horizontally and relying on timing and receivers to make yards after the reception, Borges implemented more play-action and vertical passing.
"As much as we threw that underneath stuff, we could get it downfield," Borges said. "He could make all the throws; short, intermediate, deep. When he played in 2004, he played lights out. This kid threw almost 70 percent of his passes complete. What's phenomenal about it, his completions were over 10 yards an attempt. That's just not done. He's accurate. Matt Leinart won the Heisman at a 66 percent completion rate with a lower yards-per-catch."

[SolidSnake84]

You've also posted the part that paints the best picture of Campbell.

The part i was talking about Borges saying is how they constantly had to motivate Jason and make him believe in himself. How Jason didn't necessarily play 'scared', but he was overly cautious and they had to convince him mentally that things were going ok and he would be ok. Jason had issues with his self-confidence and mental state and it would affect him and what they did on the field. The coaches and players always had to motivate him. Here's from the article:

"So much of getting Jason to play well was just trying to work with him from the neck up," said Borges, now the offensive coordinator at San Diego State. "We worked fundamentals and all that but just trying to get his psyche right, to convince him that he was a good player, the player people thought he could be, was how we got so much out of him."


Borges said he hasn't seen Campbell play this season and he hasn't spoken to him for months. However, he knows the introverted Campbell functions best when he's confident and when he has a running game to ease the pressure on him. He also said Campbell needs support from his coaches, which coach Jim Zorn seemingly gave him until he benched him against the Chiefs.



"He has to know that you believe in him," Borges said. "When I got him after two years there, he was pretty beat up mentally. He played 'concerned.' Not scared, but he played like he was afraid to make a mistake, so he didn't play well. We had to get him to take a 'let-it-rip' mentality. If he made a mistake, I took the blame. Bad play call. Once he realized we believed in him, he played to his capability. He did whatever we told him to. We told him not to do certain things, he didn't do them.
"Ninety percent of teaching is believing in the pupil and him knowing you believe in him. He believed that we believed in him."

If that doesnt sound like a guy who had self-confidence problems i dont know what did.

[30gut]

Originally Posted by SolidSnake84

"So much of getting Jason to play well was just trying to work with him from the neck up," said Borges, now the offensive coordinator at San Diego State. "We worked fundamentals and all that but just trying to get his psyche right, to convince him that he was a good player, the player people thought he could be, was how we got so much out of him."

Borges said he hasn't seen Campbell play this season and he hasn't spoken to him for months. However, he knows the introverted Campbell functions best when he's confident and when he has a running game to ease the pressure on him. He also said Campbell needs support from his coaches, which coach Jim Zorn seemingly gave him until he benched him against the Chiefs.

"He has to know that you believe in him," Borges said. "When I got him after two years there, he was pretty beat up mentally. He played 'concerned.' Not scared, but he played like he was afraid to make a mistake, so he didn't play well. We had to get him to take a 'let-it-rip' mentality. If he made a mistake, I took the blame. Bad play call. Once he realized we believed in him, he played to his capability. He did whatever we told him to. We told him not to do certain things, he didn't do them.
"Ninety percent of teaching is believing in the pupil and him knowing you believe in him. He believed that we believed in him."

If that doesnt sound like a guy who had self-confidence problems i dont know what did.

How does that make him sound like he has self-confidence problems?
Because he needs support to succeed?
Borges describes what any QB or PG/SG primary ball handler in basketball(which i used to coach) needs to succeed.
If you don't understand that your star player has to know that you trust them implicitly you don't understand team sports.

Here's an example from Brett Favre watch this video from NFL.com:
Watch the 1:38 mark to the 2:03 mark
Green Bay Packers
Favre on Favre
NFL Videos: Favre on Favre


"The coaches that he [Holmgren] hired for me couldn't have been better.
I can tell you numerous times when those guys would take the heat for me. He [Andy Reid] covered for me (refering to the clip)...Mike knew...but somebody had to get yelled at fortunately it was them most of the time"

You've also posted the part that paints the best picture of Campbell.

You are attributing your opinion negative opinion of Jason to Al Borges, which clearly isn't within the article.
Borges said that Jason was a mentally beat up QB when he[Borges] came to Auburn after splitting time as a freshman and having different OC each season.

The part i was talking about Borges saying is how they constantly had to motivate Jason and make him believe in himself. How Jason didn't necessarily play 'scared', but he was overly cautious and they had to convince him mentally that things were going ok and he would be ok.

Your statement is rife with inaccuracies.
YOU:

constantly had to motivate Jason and make him believe in himself.

Borges:

Once he realized we believed in him, he played to his capability

He doesn't describe a 'constant' process to motivate Jason.

Jason had issues with his self-confidence and mental state and it would affect him and what they did on the field. The coaches and players always had to motivate him.

^^ENTIRELY YOUR OPINION no where within the article does Borges say anything remotely resembling this statement.

Remember your orginal statement?
The casual passer by would read that statement and take you at word that Borges said something negative about JC's play here or at Auburn, which isn't the case.

Originally Posted by SolidSnake84

It's shocking how Jason did much of the same thing he does here down in Auburn, according to Al Borges...

[freddyg12]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Well, when you've been a quarterback in the same place McNabb has for more than ten years, you're bound to run into a string of success.

I frequently ask myself if there's anything that he does so consistently well, game in and game out, that makes him such an irreplaceable part of the Philly offense. And I've come to the conclusion that: McNabb is a very, very good player, and has been so for a long time, but there's nothing Philly couldn't replace if, say, he went to go play overseas. They proved this, I think, with the Kolb pick. I doubt Kevin Kolb is ever going to be a hall of fame player, but he's a functional piece in a bigger machine, who happens to be blocked by McNabb.

None of this is meant to be disrespectful, as Donovan is valuable year in and year out in the Philly offense. Of course, if the Eagles had taken Ricky Williams instead, McNabb could have gone to the Bengals or the Bears, and you would have never heard from him again. On the other hand, he's a big reason that the Eagles have been able to remain so good for so long. By ignoring the QB position every year, they've been able to build a team that could easily survive a QB swap. Ironically.

For a much shorter time, Campbell offered us stability at the QB position, but if the difference between his career and McNabb's is that, when the going got tough, McNabb labored through it and Campbell fell victim to his teams' offensive suckitude, well, then you'd have to conclude that McNabb is the better player. I'm just not sure that the going ever got tough on McNabb, which is where the comparison falls apart.

Great post GT.

I would add that McNabb seems more comfortable in a leadership role. McNabb also got through his early years by running a lot as he was not very accurate w/the ball.

As for the going getting tough on him, I think he's endured his fair share of negative publicity and handled it extremely well. Start w/draft day when the philly fans wanted R. Williams. Then the Rush Limbaugh & TO comments. Plus the philly fans are just brutal. WE may be passionate, but they are passionate neanderthals.

[irish]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

I'm talking about the 07 season.

Had JC played that entire season I doubt the Skins would have made the playoffs.

As for comparing JC to McNabb, that's the funniest thing I ever heard. Its like comparing Secretariat to a $5000 claimer at Charles Town, there is no comparison.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by irish

Had JC played that entire season I doubt the Skins would have made the playoffs.

As for comparing JC to McNabb, that's the funniest thing I ever heard. Its like comparing Secretariat to a $5000 claimer at Charles Town, there is no comparison.

I agree we don't.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

I disagree. Campbell's poor reads, bad throws, and missing open receivers has definitely left points on the field and killed drives. I'm not advocating that he's the sole problem, because we certainly have other issues. But he certainly isn't part of the solution either....and we know what you are if you're not part of the solution

When I'm talking about ball security I'm strictly talking about how JC handles the ball from his drop to release, not on his decisions on where or when to make a throw. He has the very bad habit of holding the ball much too low, patting the ball before a throw, and his long delivery which brings the ball down to almost waist level before his delivery. On the MNF broadcast Chucky had a quick segment showing the little kids doing some basic fundy drills, the thing that struck me was that each kid actually had the ball held properly at mid-chest/shoulder height with two hands, better than what we've seen from JC.

JC has all the incentive in the world to do the little things and big things right. No matter what the Redskins' record is, this season is an NFL-wide job interview for JC. One he's not performing too well in right now.

You're absolutely right, the Why is the key. I don't think the Why for Campbell's poor play is an external issue to Campbell (OL, playcalling). He's not improving on the thiings he can control (proper footwook, proper ball security, proper pre-reads and progressions). I wish I had a clear cut answer, but from what we've seen over the last five weeks the answer appears to be JC is just not going to make the improvements necessary to be a top flight NFL QB.

there was a play in the philly game where espn did a replay and showed the whole field. lewis called a fake smoke screen where jc pumped faked the wr screen and if he had waited for the play to fully develop he would've had moss wide opn for a td. jaws pointed it out. but jc checked the ball down and not letting the play develop. this is one of many instances. w/out question he's killed scoring chances. plus their is no excuse for the sloppy mechanics in your 5th year.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by irish

Had JC played that entire season I doubt the Skins would have made the playoffs.

As for comparing JC to McNabb, that's the funniest thing I ever heard. Its like comparing Secretariat to a $5000 claimer at Charles Town, there is no comparison.

Or kind of like comparing Todd Collins to Jason Campbell. It's like we know one to be better than the other, but some nimrods still think we we unlikely to make the playoffs with Campbell. It's just a bad comparison, you're right.

[warriorzpath]

Just my last 2 cents - the smartest thing I think that anyone can do now is to stay away from this discussion.