Return of Joe Gibbs - - Update

[SFREDSKIN]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

When he left, the organization from top to bottom had come together as a team and was coming off a playoff run after the death of ST. To a man, the players, coaches and FO pointed to Gibbs as the influence that brought the team through and gave them the fire to continue.

The more I see of Zorn the coach, I am convinced that the 6-2 start to the 2008 season was a direct result of Gibbs influence the prior year. But for Gibbs, the 6-2 start would not have occurred. Further, (and I know this is the "what if" game), had Gibbs returned in 2008, the team would have found a way into the playoffs again.

Without Gibbs to exert some influence over DS, Cerrato and his toxic attitude became the main character of the organization. This was exhibited almost from day one when Vinny's people intimated that G.Williams bad mouthed Gibbs. That set the tone for the next two years.

The only thing Gibbs did not do that he should have done is said "Dan, Vinny's attitude and relationship with everyone else in football sucks. He cannot be in a position of control within this organization if it is to succeed."

To assert that Gibbs didn't raise the team out of the Spurrier Chaos or that it didn't immediately sink back into the Cerrato Toxic Dump without him, is IMHO not debatable.

Well said!! Many people bash Gibbs about bad trading picks and making bad moves during Gibbs II. How the hell do we know that it wasn't Danny or Vinny that wanted this moves made and Joe just appeased them? We don't know what went on behind the scenes, we just assume.

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by SFREDSKIN

Well said!! Many people bash Gibbs about bad trading picks and making bad moves during Gibbs II. How the hell do we know that it wasn't Danny or Vinny that wanted this moves made and Joe just appeased them? We don't know what went on behind the scenes, we just assume.

Well, that's kinda the point. If Gibbs was there and we still aquired mediocre talent, regardless of who was responsible, the fact remains Joe Gibbs was a part of this organization at that time. Yes, we were better. But anyone watching the Skins during his final season, could tell we were running on fumes.

My fundamental question is what has changed since Gibbs has left? Did he suddenly gain some magic touch to get people to come here that he didn't possess the second time around. Personally, I love Joe Gibbs as much as the next guy. And I know you guys are tired of hearing me beat this dead horse whenever a Joe Gibbs thread crops up. I just don't buy the notion that Danny only listens to Gibbs and he's the key to bringing in the "right" people. Somthing just ain't right about that.

We need to move on and start fresh. For the record, I don't want Dan Snyder to sell the team. We're about to possibly enter an un-capped era. So I want an owner as financially committed to success and winning as Synder seems to be. It's not his motive that anyone questions, it's his methods.

[Chico23231]

Gibbs has moved on, let everybody here do so as well.

[SBXVII]

Originally Posted by Buster

We've seen this happen TWICE also.

Yes! I point my finger JG1 for leaving us high an dry with aged players. I can't blame JG2 for the second time. Although he left abruptly he left us with GW and a half decent scheme. Everyone kept clammering that they needed a better QB, better WR's, and a pass rush. I am to blame as well. I think now had we beefed up the O-line even Al Saunders might have been able to get his system to work.

Whats sad is we have no passing game and now no running game to go along with a top notch defense. We complained about AS not taking shots down field with his offensive scheme, then go out to pick up a "high scoring WCO," and in reality we regressed. I almost, almost welcome AS's offensive scheme more these days.

[RedskinPete]

Letting GW go was a mistake...really could he have been any more a loser then things are now? Who really needs to go is Vinny !!!! He killed the 49ers and he is doing the same here!

[tryfuhl]

Originally Posted by skinsguy

I don't know why it is that every time the subject of Joe Gibbs being in a position of team president comes up, people automatically assume that means the same thing as GM.

And furthermore, why is it that people say "let's not look to the past but the future" and then say they'd take Bill Parcells as team president? It's the same difference. If Gibbs could build a successful racing team, surely he can build a successful football franchise...a sport he has been successful with in the past.

Let's just hire any successful businesman then. I vote for that guy who made billions in a decade from Snyder Communications!

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

When he left, the organization from top to bottom had come together as a team and was coming off a playoff run after the death of ST. To a man, the players, coaches and FO pointed to Gibbs as the influence that brought the team through and gave them the fire to continue.

The more I see of Zorn the coach, I am convinced that the 6-2 start to the 2008 season was a direct result of Gibbs influence the prior year. But for Gibbs, the 6-2 start would not have occurred. Further, (and I know this is the "what if" game), had Gibbs returned in 2008, the team would have found a way into the playoffs again.

Without Gibbs to exert some influence over DS, Cerrato and his toxic attitude became the main character of the organization. This was exhibited almost from day one when Vinny's people intimated that G.Williams bad mouthed Gibbs. That set the tone for the next two years.

The only thing Gibbs did not do that he should have done is said "Dan, Vinny's attitude and relationship with everyone else in football sucks. He cannot be in a position of control within this organization if it is to succeed."

To assert that Gibbs didn't raise the team out of the Spurrier Chaos or that it didn't immediately sink back into the Cerrato Toxic Dump without him, is IMHO not debatable.

No one loves or respects Joe Gibbs as much as I do. He's one of my idols. As fas as football is concerned he has never shown any ability to pick players. His strenghts are being a leader of men, managing people, being a great game day coach during Gibbs 1 and so forth. When has he ever put a professional football front office together? NEVER. He made numerous blunders coaching and in personel when he came back. But one thing he ( AND GREG WILLIAMS) did was bring back some dignity and respectability to the franchise. Williams isn't getting a lot of credit but he played a HUGE role here. His defense won that playoff game in TB. That is gone out the window now. But as far as what's on the field I don't think Gibbs could've done much with last years team. The same problems that Gibbs had, Zorn is having...game mgt issues, wasting TO's, shitty playcalling, an inability to score points. The best thing for Dan S. to do is call someone who is qualified to run a front office for today's NFL. That guy is not Joe Gibbs.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by SFREDSKIN

Well said!! Many people bash Gibbs about bad trading picks and making bad moves during Gibbs II. How the hell do we know that it wasn't Danny or Vinny that wanted this moves made and Joe just appeased them? We don't know what went on behind the scenes, we just assume.

They're all at fault. Gibbs traded away picks for Brunell when he was going to be cut. We gave up an extra number one to pick Campbell. I could go on and on. Some of what went on here is on Gibbs and we'd be foolish to think otherwise.

[freddyg12]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

They're all at fault. Gibbs traded away picks for Brunell when he was going to be cut. We gave up an extra number one to pick Campbell. I could go on and on. Some of what went on here is on Gibbs and we'd be foolish to think otherwise.

Wrong. I always correct people on this, it may be my biggest wp pet pieve. We swapped #1 picks (our 06 for their 05) & gave up a 3rd. The net result was we had to give them a 3rd, which is a high pick, but it's not a number one.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by freddyg12

Wrong. I always correct people on this, it may be my biggest wp pet pieve. We swapped #1 picks (our 06 for their 05) & gave up a 3rd. The net result was we had to give them a 3rd, which is a high pick, but it's not a number one.

Oh...I didn't know that!

[skinsguy]

Originally Posted by Daseal

Can someone explain to me the roles of a Team President then if they have nothing to do with player acquisition? I like Gibbs as a person and a motivator, but he's no longer a football person. His offense while he was in the league was one of the worst -- and the only reason we stayed competitive was because of Greg Williams and his attacking dominant defense. His player acquisitions were built for short term winning (which we didn't do), undersized receivers, and no thought to the future. Why have we gone downhill since he left? I think that's pretty easy. Offensive line age/injuries, Clinton Portis getting destroyed from 6000 carries per season, and a change on the defensive side.

I'm not trying to kill Gibbs. While I don't agree with a lot of his philosophies and stances in life, I certainly respect them and he's done nothing but good for mankind. He's an amazing leader with an uncanny gift to lead. I just don't think football is a place for him anymore. After he quit the skins, it looks like he was 10 years younger after about two months. Football requires a dedication that consumes all of an individuals time and energy, he doesn't need that anymore -- I'm worried it would kill him, to be completely honest.

Keep racing. Enjoy your family. Hang out on that lake in South Carolina, and answer Danny's calls when he needs some real advice. Besides that, enjoy 'retirement.'

To whoever said if you can build a great racing team you can build a great football team. Come on. The difficulty of assembling an NFL team vs. assembling a NASCAR team isn't even comparable. His position in NASCAR is basically spend a lot of money, get a few amazing engineers, and hope for a lot of luck on race day. It's all about having the best equipment out there, something a salary cap and contracts greatly limit in the NFL.

The Team President's main role is to oversee the hiring/firing of a General Manager and/or a Head Coach. The General Manager's main duty is player acquisition. The head coach is (or should be) responsible for building his coaching staff around him, some input into player acquisition, and of course coaching the team.

If Joe Gibbs is hired as a Team President, he would not be directly involved with player acquisition. Whoever the GM is would be mainly responsible for that. Since Joe Gibbs is great with surrounding himself around the right people to have the best chance at succeeding, then I think personally this position as Team President would be right up his alley.

[skinsguy]

Originally Posted by tryfuhl

Let's just hire any successful businesman then. I vote for that guy who made billions in a decade from Snyder Communications!

Yeah, and that seems to be working just fine for us right now.

[skinsguy]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

Sorry but the team was not really in that good of shape. Barely getting to the playoffs and losing in the first round doesn't do it for me. Let's face it, that was a miracle run and the team probably over achieved a bit. Getting a Dallas team that laid down the last game of the year helped as well. And he is part to blame for trading away draft picks and leaving the team w/out any quality depth. He, Vinny and Dan are all to blame.

So you feel the team was left in awesome shape when Steve Spurrier left? I'm sorry, but two winning, playoff seasons under Joe Gibbs is much better than two seasons of below .500 football with Spurrier. Therefore, yes, Joe Gibbs did leave us in much better shape.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by skinsguy

So you feel the team was left in awesome shape when Steve Spurrier left? I'm sorry, but two winning, playoff seasons under Joe Gibbs is much better than two seasons of below .500 football with Spurrier. Therefore, yes, Joe Gibbs did leave us in much better shape.

I agree. Gibbs and Williams left the team in better shape.

[atomicnixon]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

I agree. Gibbs and Williams left the team in better shape.

Gibbs unquestionably left the team in better shape, considering what he had to work with. The problems began in the 2008 draft when you draft 2 under performing WR and a below-average TE in high rounds. Had they picked OL we would not be in this situation because they would have had plenty of playing time as fast as our line gets injured. Where is Pete Kendall? What about Fabini? There are a number of reliable back ups out there who could do a better job than Mike Williams or Will Montgomery. Just another example of the front office FAILING! At least when Joe Gibbs was here he could take an average group and make them competitive, now we have nothing.