Are we adressing our D-line?

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by SkinsFanSince91

Furthermore, it wasnt our run defense that was suspect last year as much as it was [our] pass defense.

FOCKER OUT!!

The Redskins overall defensive rankings for 2006:

#23 against the pass

#27 against the run

Not only that, we've already upgraded our secondary with free agency. Not so for the D-line.

[SkinsFanSince91]

what are u talking about?! Landry is an obvious upgrade over Pierson P!!! PLus he posseses an upside that PP has already reached at 30+ years old.

As for Springs, I was refereing to everyone saying that he should play FS now that we have smoot. BEAT!! Let him stay at CB and get Laron Landry to play FS. He and Calvin Johnson are the most sure players in the draft, and they can both step in, play every down, and be impact players their first year in the league.

[That Guy]

Originally Posted by SkinsFanSince91

what are u talking about?! Landry is an obvious upgrade over Pierson P!!! PLus he posseses an upside that PP has already reached at 30+ years old.

no one's arguing that he's better than PP, but stud DL are MUCH harder to get and the upgrade over the crap we have on the DL is MUCH MUCH greater than the upgrade from PP to landry at safety.

you can plug in a vet min safety and get decent production. if you try to plug in a vet min DE, you'll end up with a terrible defense.

[SkinsFanSince91]

True. Very true. However, you can not deny that any DL prospect that we draft has the potential to boom or bust. Can u say the same for Laron Landry though? I can't.

He can come in an be that Darren Sharper center fielder type that we need to stop giving up the big pass play.

Branch would be ideal, and Okoye even better becuase he is only 19. Branch takes plays off, and Okoye is a good pass rusher but he isnt the run stopper that Branch is. Neither one of them can consistently do both.

G Adams can rush the passer, but he cant really play the run in the NFL. Especially with his size at 261 pounds. There are LB in the NFl that size, but there aren't any that size in college. PLus NFL tackles are waaaaay bigger and more experienced than those in the ACC.

J Anderson has a monster season. He has size and quickness, but there isnt enough film on him, since he left early, to properly evaluate him for the upcoming season. However, when they do evaluate him, scouts say he "disappears" from the field at times. Translation - he isnt thouroughly dominant and he takes plays off. Those two alone are too much to gamble on taking him, let alone any of those guys in the top 10.

LL is the safest bet. The last line of defense. He has size, speed, and experience to make it happen for us immediately.

[TheMalcolmConnection]

I disagree. If you're looking through the years, you have to look at how strong the defense was up front. When we were top ten in defense for 2004 and 2005, our run defense was absolutely dominant.

This year, when we were weaker up front, we start getting torched more often and for longer, pass plays. Sean Taylor was a beast both of those years. Is he NOT the Darren Sharper type you speak of? Everyone was quick to write him off after last season.

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by SkinsFanSince91

LL is the safest bet. The last line of defense. He has size, speed, and experience to make it happen for us immediately.

If you team's "last line of defense" is busy on running plays making tackles 10-15 yards after the line of scrimmage, it's going to be a very long season.

[That Guy]

yes, landry is good at what he does, and he's a safe pick, but it's at a low impact position that can be manned by much lesser talent without a gigantic drop off in defensive rankings. If we take him, who, exactly, is going to come in here and improve our DL play? charles mann? dave butz?

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by SkinsFanSince91

Okay. My opinion is only "arbitrary" because I did not have the time to qualify as to why those men are all boom or bust prospects.

First off, in every scouting report that we have seen on Landry, his only negative is either his size, speed, or timing of jumps to defend passes. His timing can easily be coached up. At the combine he measured at 6'2" 213 lbs., ran a 4.35 40 yd dash, 37 in vertical, and pressed 225 lbs. around 20 times. So those questions are immediately laid to rest.

Adams is a great player, but he is undersized for one at 261 lbs. That would prevent him from being on the field for all downs. He would get bullied by the average NFL tackle at 328 lbs.

Anderson has the size, but is coming off a freakishly good season and has yet to face the double teams that great DE's get the second time around. He also has been known to take a play or series of plays off. When he gets to the NFL he is gonna have to go all out every down. Especially if we take him high.

Branch is a monster in the middle, but suffers the same criticisms as Anderson. He takes too many plays off. And for anyone reading that has been on a team, that is one of the most egregious things that you can do while on the field. Plays get missed because of people taking plays off. Then one has to wonder, which version of the player will show up for the game - The beast or the Sloth.

If we trade, but dont trade out of the top 10, then we need the surest and most immediate impact player available. At that positions, hands down the best candidate is Landry. We can still use the acquired pick to get a DT or a DE/pass rush specialist in the 2nd-3rd round (a la MArk Anderson Chi Bears - 5 round pick with 12 sacks).

Furthermore, it wasnt our run defense that was suspect last year as much as it was out pass defense. The skins lead the league in plays allowed over 20 yards! Horrible!!! We have done well fortifying that with our FA signing, but we still need a "TRUE" free safety. Its not Taylor and it damn sure aint Sean Springs! LAron People!! Then plug holes with our new picks.

FOCKER OUT!!

Couldn't it also be said that a college safety is only involved on a few plays a game, and likewise could be labeled boom or bust?

[CooleyFan47]

Okoye would be a perfect fit for the skins. Hes so young and versatile. At only 19, hes bound to add more to his frame and become an elite run-stopper, in addition to his pass rush. He was great for Louisville this season, who played some great offensive lines in the Big East.

[SkinsFanSince91]

Originally Posted by TheMalcolmConnection

I disagree. If you're looking through the years, you have to look at how strong the defense was up front. When we were top ten in defense for 2004 and 2005, our run defense was absolutely dominant.

This year, when we were weaker up front, we start getting torched more often and for longer, pass plays. Sean Taylor was a beast both of those years. Is he NOT the Darren Sharper type you speak of? Everyone was quick to write him off after last season.

I respectfully disagree with all of you.

First off, there are at least 5 plays that I could name this season where Sean Taylor had taken bad angles to make tackles that resulted in a big pass/run play. More specifically, the Titans and Rams games were examples of him taking bad angles as a "free safety." Do not get me wrong, Sean Taylor is a presence to be recognized across the middle of the green. But he just is not a free safety in the league.

If we move him to the SS position, it puts him closer to the LOS and it cuts down his angles. That'll free him up like Polomalu to run like crazy across the "middle of the field" and make plays like we all know and love. Landry comes in as a four year starter, All-American FS, and national champion from LSU. He can IMMEDIATELY start for us and play from the first to last snap of every game. As much as I would love to have Branch, Okoye, G Adams, or J Anderson, there isn't anyone who can say that anyone of those guys can immediately be inserted in the lineup and play every down, without them realizing one of there positional weaknesses that I have already stated in one my preceding posts.

Therefore, if we trade down and remain in the top 12, we need to select the player with a guaranteed impact and the ability to play for us immediately. The first round is made for impact players to play on a consistent and immediate basis for their teams. We pick higher, so the spotlight is on us to make a sound decision considering that they will be paid first round money. Also, assuming that we trade down, it will invariably be for draft picks. Thereby, we acquire the players that we can afford to gamble on. Pun intended(we al know the draft is a big crap shoot). There, in the later rounds, we can draft for D-Line depth, and hopefully foster some competition at the position to bring the best out of our players.

Don't forget we have the 6th overall pick. That translates to big points on the draft chart. We can pick up at least a 2nd and a 3rd round pick to give us a full first day in the draft(Side Note: I was the guy who started the post about trading Ladell Betts for a second or third round pick, because we didn't have any picks after the first round. Then the jets trade for Thomas Jones, and got, drum roll please, a second round pick).

So now everyone is happy, and that option is no longer viable. We still have Betts, but we still have no picks after the first round! To remedy this, we can trade down a few spots to get , the best bet to promptly aid our defense on both fronts, Laron LAndry. Then use the picks in the 2nd and 3rd rounds to get remaining DL help. There still will be quality players at those spots. Furthermore, if we trade to remain in the top 12, the pick in the 2nd and 3rd rounds will also be in the top tier of both rounds. This will give us optimal positioning to get the first dibbs in the 2nd and 3rd.

Who else is estimated to be there at the DT and DE postions in the beginnings of the 2nd and 3rd rounds? At DE Anthony Spencer, Victor Abiamiri, Tim Crowder, Ray McDonald, and Brian Robison are just a few names in the group of DE's that will be there at the top of the 2nd or 3rd rounds. As for DT's we can expect Justin Harrell, Marcus Thomas, Brandon Mebane, Tank Tyler, Kareem Brown, and Jay Alford to be available at those positions as well.

Either way you look at it, if we trade down and stay in the top 12 we get picks to fill up the first 3 rounds, get depth and competition at the DL, and to a secondary unit that already has a head-bussa(Sean Taylor), we add a young, gifted, play-making, and experienced free safety(Laron Landry).

If we do, in fact, take one those d-lineman, it will be a definitve boost to the position, because we shallow there. However, to get the absolute most out of this draft we need the most solid talent out there for a top pick and we need more picks. By going with Landry, after a trade for picks, we get both.

[That Guy]

Originally Posted by SkinsFanSince91

If we move him to the SS position, it puts him closer to the LOS and it cuts down his angles. That'll free him up like Polomalu to run like crazy across the "middle of the field" and make plays like we all know and love. Landry comes in as a four year starter, All-American FS, and national champion from LSU. He can IMMEDIATELY start for us and play from the first to last snap of every game. As much as I would love to have Branch, Okoye, G Adams, or J Anderson, there isn't anyone who can say that anyone of those guys can immediately be inserted in the lineup and play every down, without them realizing one of there positional weaknesses that I have already stated in one my preceding posts.

this is a hypocrites argument, you're assuming YOUR choice will come in and play well immediately, and that everyone's else choice wouldn't. Landry has played as many downs in the NFL as okoye or any other college player (zero), which means he's really not a sure thing and could easily be labeled boom or bust as well.

Obviously it's impossible to argue the point since you're basically saying "I'm right because i said so, and if you disagree, you're wrong." Not very convincing.

btw, landry's probably going at 10, so we couldn't trade down to 12 and get him, AND with him in tow, who, exactly, is going to prevent plays from getting 15 yards down the field? our current DL sure isn't, and if you think a top 6 DL guy can't improve our defense, then wtf would a 3rd rounder be any better?

[SkinsFanSince91]

Originally Posted by That Guy

this is a hypocrites argument, you're assuming YOUR choice will come in and play well immediately, and that everyone's else choice wouldn't. Landry has played as many downs in the NFL as okoye or any other college player (zero), which means he's really not a sure thing and could easily be labeled boom or bust as well.

Obviously it's impossible to argue the point since you're basically saying "I'm right because i said so, and if you disagree, you're wrong." Not very convincing.

btw, landry's probably going at 10, so we couldn't trade down to 12 and get him, AND with him in tow, who, exactly, is going to prevent plays from getting 15 yards down the field? our current DL sure isn't, and if you think a top 6 DL guy can't improve our defense, then wtf would a 3rd rounder be any better?

Its clearly not a hypocrite's argument. It is hard to argue who will be the better pro, only because they haven't played yet. That's it. However, this is an argument that happens every year prior to the draft. People evaluate players first off of their experience, then off of their combine/pro day, and then its the debate all the way up until draft day.

True, I/we, can not predict the future, but based off of the criteria that GM's go by, LaRon Landry and Calvin Johnson are the most "pro-ready" players available. Why? They have the least amount of visible weaknesses, they've displayed their abilites on the field, and they have some of the highest upsides for their position. Unless you like to add someone to that list, Im pretty sure that it will not change before draft day.

Also, I dont know if you are reading my post all the way through, but nowhere did I say or imply that "I'm right because i said so, and if you disagree, you're wrong." If you or anyone felt that way, its only because I've made a sound argument that makes YOU feel like I am right.

There is no guarantee that a 2nd or 3rd rounder will be better than anyone in the first, but we do see a great deal of players from lower rounds perform better that the 1st rounders. Plus, they come cheaper and with less risk. When people talk about drafting all of those D-Lineman, they assume that they will cure the problems in that area. What if they don't? What if they are subpar, and play below expectations? Then the draft pick that we used will to resurrect the pass rush will be wasted, and we will still have 1 pick in the first day of the draft.

I, just like everyone else, have the ability to disagree and to postulate as to their thoughts concerning the Redskins. Maybe if your arguments were a little more thought out and with points, then we could get somewhere.

Since you like shooting holes in my theories/posts, what do u think the Redskins should do to get more picks and to get better? Or can u not think that far ahead without your nose bleeding?

PS
As for Landry, I know he will be gone by 12. That's why we can have a sign and trade deal worked out with any team that wants to trade up to 6th overall for Brady Quinn. We get more picks plus stay in the top 10-15. Thats more than ONE DLineman can do to help a team, even if his name is Gaines Adams/Alan Branch.

[That Guy]

Originally Posted by SkinsFanSince91

Also, I dont know if you are reading my post all the way through, but nowhere did I say or imply that "I'm right because i said so, and if you disagree, you're wrong." If you or anyone felt that way, its only because I've made a sound argument that makes YOU feel like I am right.

sorry, i can't stop laughing. you're response to anyone saying landry might not be the best choice is basically "that other guy is boom or bust" and landry's a sure thing. yet neither has played in the nfl. yeah he's shown more, but again, safety is low impact and you have yet to response to actual criticism, like how do we fix the DL with a 3rd rounder when you think a 1st rounder isn't going to make a difference? and what good is a safety when the DL suck and every play has to be made 15 yards downfield?

There is no guarantee that a 2nd or 3rd rounder will be better than anyone in the first, but we do see a great deal of players from lower rounds perform better that the 1st rounders. Plus, they come cheaper and with less risk. When people talk about drafting all of those D-Lineman, they assume that they will cure the problems in that area. What if they don't? What if they are subpar, and play below expectations? Then the draft pick that we used will to resurrect the pass rush will be wasted, and we will still have 1 pick in the first day of the draft.

a 1st rounder has a better chance than a 3rd rounder. what if landry sucks? what if he doesn't help the defense at all? then we've wasted the pick. this is exactly what i was talking about though, you make an argument against other players and don't hold you're own view up to the same light, that's hypocritical.

I, just like everyone else, have the ability to disagree and to postulate as to their thoughts concerning the Redskins. Maybe if your arguments were a little more thought out and with points, then we could get somewhere.

show me where i said you couldn't. maybe if you answered the criticism instead of trying to talk down to people and ignore it we'd be getting somewhere.

Since you like shooting holes in my theories/posts, what do u think the Redskins should do to get more picks and to get better? Or can u not think that far ahead without your nose bleeding?

and maybe if you weren't such an a$$hat, you wouldn't have to act like a 5th grader. I've already said what i think they should do, if you'd like i can repeat it, but that means you didn't bother reading it the first time, which, i believe is something you've accused me of. oops.

[SkinsFanSince91]

Originally Posted by That Guy

sorry, i can't stop laughing. you're response to anyone saying landry might not be the best choice is basically "that other guy is boom or bust" and landry's a sure thing. yet neither has played in the nfl. yeah he's shown more, but again, safety is low impact and you have yet to response to actual criticism, like how do we fix the DL with a 3rd rounder when you think a 1st rounder isn't going to make a difference? and what good is a safety when the DL suck and every play has to be made 15 yards downfield?

a 1st rounder has a better chance than a 3rd rounder. what if landry sucks? what if he doesn't help the defense at all? then we've wasted the pick. this is exactly what i was talking about though, you make an argument against other players and don't hold you're own view up to the same light, that's hypocritical.

show me where i said you couldn't. maybe if you answered the criticism instead of trying to talk down to people and ignore it we'd be getting somewhere.

and maybe if you weren't such an a$$hat, you wouldn't have to act like a 5th grader. I've already said what i think they should do, if you'd like i can repeat it, but that means you didn't bother reading it the first time, which, i believe is something you've accused me of. oops.

There u go forgeting to read again. I said that there is not a way to predict the future....With me so far...What scouts do is what I did in my argument. Nothing more and nothing less. They compare the players by experience, upside, and measurements/times. Landry is among one of the highly rated candidates because he is simply NFL ready. Not just by his experience, numbers, or upside, but by all of them. If players are evaluated by that criteria, then how else are these players compared b4 the draft?

As for the D Line problems, later on in the draft teams then look for depth or role players. So, while we can't afford to have a high draft pick not on the field, we can afford to have a 3rd round "run stuffer" or a 3rd round "pass rush specialist" that we can have in for key situations. That give us the luxury of bringing them along slowly, while having depth at the postions. So we could draft a run stopper/pass rusher type(s) to plug holes and provide depth. Golston came along well last year. He made strides for us. But more importantly, when he was drafted it was for depth at that postion. Cuz the year before that when C. Griffin went down, we were in bad shape. You can always expect to get more porduction when you have multiple players for depth than one, because they have the ability to get better at the same time or at their own pace. If one player is having a hard time adjusting to the league, then u always have the other who could be moving along faster tha the other.

When one player is drafted to fulfill so many expectations, unless they come in like Merriman did, they often dissapoint.

The skins have so many holes to fill, and with one pick in the first day, we can't realistically expect to pick one DE/DT and provide depth to one of our weaker postions(d-line) at the same time.

Drafting for role players are what championship teams do. PAt's had troy brown. Bears got mark anderson to get 12 sacks this year, and he wasnt a first round pick. He was a role player drafted in the 5th round just to rush the passer. We gotta dig and see if we cant do the same for stopping the run and rushing the pass.

I never saw, at length, what you think we should do with one pick in the first day to hel make us better. So please feel free to elaborate - again.

Also, you resorted to name calling first, so I'd chill on living in a glass house and throwing rocks.

I think I've responded, quite politely, to most of the questions/criticism. Let me know if there is anything that I haven't addressed.

[SkinsFanSince91]

PS

Saftey isnt a low impact postion anymore when your team gives up the most pass plays over 20 yards