Roster transition in the Shanny era

[GTripp0012]

I also want to suggest that there's no way Carter or Rogers is a probowler on this team in 2011. That's not what I'm trying to suggest: that the Redskins voluntarily gave up the only two probowlers on their roster. I think they gave up two very, very good players because they did not fit what the Redskins wanted to do. And generally speaking that's not good roster management. But the fact that Carter is already replaced in the scheme makes it easier to stomach.

[MTK]

What else are you supposed to do with guys that don't fit your scheme? Anytime a new coach comes in, there's going to be significant roster turnover and yes often times good players are going to be let go.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Mattyk

What else are you supposed to do with guys that don't fit your scheme? Anytime a new coach comes in, there's going to be significant roster turnover and yes often times good players are going to be let go.

Isn't this just an assumption based on longitudinal observation of a team that consistently makes awful coaching hires? I mean, obviously not every player is going to be great in every scheme, but two things:

1) There really isn't much scheme diversity in the NFL. Shanahan runs about 80% of what Zorn ran. They likely use different coaching points on similar plays, but the results tell me that one didn't coach the zone stretch more effectively than the other. The year to year variance in the running game for the 2008-2011 Redskins was all about the available talent. Obviously Shanahan evaluates his players differently than Zorn did, mostly because he is a different person. No coach can find a role for everyone on an inherited roster, but if you can turn over 85% of the roster in two years and you still can't find a role for most players, then you're doing wrong.

2) When you make good hires, they'll use the good players in roles they are comfortable with. Maybe they won't extend them when they hit free agency. The Vikings opted not to offer Sidney Rice a huge deal after Childress and Bevell left. That's the kind of thing that will happen when you change coaching staffs.

But the idea that a change of staff means that every player on the roster is now useless is not something that people who aren't Redskin fans believe.

[MTK]

No, not every player is useless. But when you take over a team a coach is going to look to bring in "his guys". Either to upgrade the talent level, or to fit the scheme better, or to even help change the locker room culture. What Shanny has done really isn't that out of the ordinary. I'm still not sure what impact guys like Williams, Rinehart, and Tryon would have had. It's not like they are game changers on their current teams.

[GTripp0012]

When Gibbs and Williams were hired in 2004 and all they had was a bunch of Spurrier's leftovers (because Spurrier was a bad hire who tore apart Schottenheimer's roster), did they complain about needing to turn over 80% of the roster before needing to compete?

Or did Williams have a GREAT defense in the fall because he used previously unused guys like Pierce, Marshall, and Clark combine with his handpicked signings such as Springs, Taylor, Washington, Griffin, and Daniels to make one of the best units in the league? I mean, that was a totally different scheme than what George Edwards was running, about as different as you can get. But it's not possible if he releases Pierce and Clark to bring in guys like Prioleau and Lawyer Milloy because he once worked with them before.

It wasn't a fluke. He did the same thing with New Orleans in 2009.

[GTripp0012]

I mean, the real shame of the Shanahan excuses is that the Redskins have actually done it right (arguably twice) while Dan Snyder has owned the team. And when Shanahan is doing it so horribly and arrogantly wrong, people are defending it as it being "the right way" to build a team.

First of all, suggesting that there is one right way to build a winning team is a really arrogant line of thinking, and is nothing more than a job security ploy (fire me and you'll be screwed!). Secondly, the Redskins already DID IT A LOT BETTER AND A LOT FASTER than this.

You can argue that Gibbs didn't fix all of the organizational ills, and the fact that he was good at making hires and pretty good at evaluating veteran talent didn't fix everything Snyder had done wrong with the team. You can argue that Gibbs threw away far too many draft picks frivolously to have built a "great" organization in Washington. You'd probably be right.

What you can't argue is that what he did was more successful in the short term. And to be totally honest, it's probably more sustainable than what the Redskins are trying now. That last part is something the jury is still out on. But I definitely hold it to be true.

[Paintrain]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

I also want to suggest that there's no way Carter or Rogers is a probowler on this team in 2011. That's not what I'm trying to suggest: that the Redskins voluntarily gave up the only two probowlers on their roster. I think they gave up two very, very good players because they did not fit what the Redskins wanted to do. And generally speaking that's not good roster management. But the fact that Carter is already replaced in the scheme makes it easier to stomach.

So square peg-round hole is good roster management or you'd advocate reshaping philosophy to suit two ill fitting players? Not trying to be a wiseass, just trying to grasp your issue with the roster management under Shanahan as it relates to players he cut that are on rosters elsewhere.

[CrustyRedskin]

Wonder what Gregg Williams would have been like as a head coach of the Skins??... Quess we'll never know but i would have like to have seen it.

[Paintrain]

Originally Posted by CrustyRedskin

Wonder what Gregg Williams would have been like as a head coach of the Skins??... Quess we'll never know but i would have like to have seen it.

No better than Zorn due to the Vinny factor.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Isn't this just an assumption based on longitudinal observation of a team that consistently makes awful coaching hires? I mean, obviously not every player is going to be great in every scheme, but two things:

1) There really isn't much scheme diversity in the NFL. Shanahan runs about 80% of what Zorn ran. They likely use different coaching points on similar plays, but the results tell me that one didn't coach the zone stretch more effectively than the other. The year to year variance in the running game for the 2008-2011 Redskins was all about the available talent. Obviously Shanahan evaluates his players differently than Zorn did, mostly because he is a different person. No coach can find a role for everyone on an inherited roster, but if you can turn over 85% of the roster in two years and you still can't find a role for most players, then you're doing wrong.

Also, are you suggesting that Shanahan "can't find a role for most [of the] players" on the current roster?? There are lots of gaps to fill, but, c'mon man that's just crazy talk.

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

2) When you make good hires, they'll use the good players in roles they are comfortable with. Maybe they won't extend them when they hit free agency. The Vikings opted not to offer Sidney Rice a huge deal after Childress and Bevell left. That's the kind of thing that will happen when you change coaching staffs.

You mean like we did with Carter and Rogers? Like we may do with Landry? (Honestly, I don't remember if we cut Carter or just didn't renew. Even if we cut him, his replacement was a definite upgrade in our scheme and, letting him go, let us keep a couple of younger developmental guys - Jackson and Marcus White).

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

But the idea that a change of staff means that every player on the roster is now useless is not something that people who aren't Redskin fans believe.

Well, seeing as 35 players of the 2009 roster are no longer in the NFL, I would suggest a substantial amount of people more knowledgeable than Redskins fans would agree that the 2009 roster contained a lot of "useless" players. Also, with an 85% turnover, there are going to be lots of "he's crap, but at least he's my crap" moves (Maake comes to mind).

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

So square peg-round hole is good roster management or you'd advocate reshaping philosophy to suit two ill fitting players? Not trying to be a wiseass, just trying to grasp your issue with the roster management under Shanahan as it relates to players he cut that are on rosters elsewhere.

They let them go because they were deemed to be "inconsistent" players unworthy of long-term deals. Not bad performers within the scheme, inconsistent performers.

Well, whose fault was that? The players? Well, at the time you could have argued that, but then they went elsewhere and performed like deserving pro bowlers. Nothing remotely inconsistent in their game.

So the only people who were wrong were those who determined that they were inconsistent performers in the first place. Again, no one thought these players were bad here, but Carter couldn't consistently do what was asked of an edge player in the scheme (I'm amazed they didn't try him over the tackle at LDE with Lorenzo Alexander as the in-space edge guy, but that is their prerogative).

Carter was still our second best pass rusher last season, and Rogers was our best or second best cover corner (depending what you thought of Phil Buchanon). That's what they were in this scheme. In other roles, they were pro bowlers. But if you looked at this years defense and thought that it couldn't have used a cover guy or another pass rusher, well, then I don't agree.

Full disclosure: I didn't disagree with the decision to get rid of either of them. But that is not an excuse for poor roster management. I just think it's masquerading as one. The bigger issue is that when they were here in 2010, the unit underperformed and they got blamed for it. Good teams don't pass the blame, but that's something that the Redskins have been doing on departed veterans since the Cerrato days.

To say the 2010 defense wasn't talented or didn't have the right pieces simply isn't accurate. What those two guys did in 2011 (as every down players) shows as much.

[SmootSmack]

Redskins blamed Carter and Rogers? Interesting

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

Also, are you suggesting that Shanahan "can't find a role for most [of the] players" on the current roster?? There are lots of gaps to fill, but, c'mon man that's just crazy talk.

You mean like we did with Carter and Rogers? Like we may do with Landry? (Honestly, I don't remember if we cut Carter or just didn't renew. Even if we cut him, his replacement was a definite upgrade in our scheme and, letting him go, let us keep a couple of younger developmental guys - Jackson and Marcus White).

Well, seeing as 35 players of the 2009 roster are no longer in the NFL, I would suggest a substantial amount of people more knowledgeable than Redskins fans would agree that the 2009 roster contained a lot of "useless" players. Also, with an 85% turnover, there are going to be lots of "he's crap, but at least he's my crap" moves (Maake comes to mind).

My apologies on a misrepresentation of your argument. I'm so confused by the many different defenses for Shanahan that my brain is combining them into arguments that no one is making. I apologize for making a straw man about a high percentage of the current roster being non-scheme fits. That's not really the problem that caused 6-10/5-11.

Carter was released prior to drafting Kerrigan, creating the obvious need for an edge rusher. Rogers hit free agency, but the scheme-fit argument about Rogers was disingenuous when Shanahan made it and it's disingenuous now. I know the Redskins want to be a zone coverage team and they viewed Rogers as an inconsistent zone player. But I've spent a lot of time grading Rogers as a corner since 2005; he's not a poor zone player. The problem, IMO, was positioning (on the slot) in the Haslett defense. And "inconsistent" when you have the corner who gave up more passing yards than any player in football on the other side of the field is a really suspect term anyway.

It's the same problem the Eagles had with Nnamdi Asomugha this year. They got it fixed by the last four games though. The Redskins have a strong tendency to project failures onto departed players, a tendency that pre-dates Mike Shanahan. It's nice on some level to see Redskins draft picks make pro bowls, no matter how little affiliation I have with them when they do it.

If we do it with Landry, the mistakes are the same. Look, I realize Landry is doing himself no favors with this charade of trying to avoid surgery. I get that the Redskins probably should be growing frustrated with him. If you continue to let good secondary players walk because they do dumb things that make you want to pull your hair out, and then act like "hey, we're letting Landry walk now, it's addition by subtraction!" Well, sure. Have fun. Did I mention that I will criticize the Redskins for mishandling the situation? Thought you should know.

If you want to send a message, slap him with the franchise tag and don't open up long term contract negotiations until he gets his act together. He's a player you need in the defense, let's not overlook that.

The 2009 roster did contain a lot of useless players without any trade value. It also happened to include many of the players who are the high quality performers on the current team. And I think there could have been at least a few more quality starters on the 2011 team if things had been managed better.

One thing the Redskins have done well is getting picks for players they don't want anymore. What they've struggled with is replacing the players they don't want anymore with players who 1) they do want, and 2) are actually capable.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Redskins blamed Carter and Rogers? Interesting

Well at least we've moved on to players worth talking about.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Redskins blamed Carter and Rogers? Interesting

Are you asserting they did not?

Because their efforts to bring either of them back onto the 2011 team, well, failed.