Disgusting

[Daseal]

There are never any personal insults hurled. Unless you mean at Bush, which they do in fact matter. Character of a President matters. I listen to your ideas, I don't agree with them, and if you provide me with hard facts, not things that are debatable, then I will.

I would be happy for you to bring the fallacies and inconsistancies to my attention when we're mid debate then. I wouldn't jump down your throat calling foul. Fact of the matter is I'm not patriotic. I think that being overly patriotic causes the downfall of every great nation, which is so true.

PS - Could a mod please more this to the Parking lot? This isn't really football news. At least not anymore.

[cpayne5]

Originally Posted by Daseal

I think that being overly patriotic causes the downfall of every great nation, which is so true.

Ha, 'so true' & 'i think' used in the same sentence about the same thing.

The slide towards liberalism is what causes the downfall of every great nation, unfortunately we are headed in that direction.

[cpayne5]

"Pat Tillman, I feel bad for the family, but he isn't any more of a hero than Joe Schmoe who died."

You have to give the man credit for turning down $3.5million so he could go and try and stop the people who are trying to kill YOU. As for being more of a hero than the other Joe Schmoe casualties, I think they're all on the same level. What was originally being discussed here is the college student who was belittling Tillman's courage and bravery, not Tillman's worth as a hero.

[Phinehas]

Daseal:

We have fanatic Christians running the White House?

I hope they aren't overly patriotic as well!



You do realize that you used the same word to describe both those who bombed the WTC and those who are running our country, don't you?

Yes, you do get to criticize anything you like. No, you don't get to do so free of backlash. There are consequences for every position you take, and part of those consequences include granting others the same right to criticize you.

Your "killing a bunch of children on a hunch" does no favors to your credibility as a political commentator. That sort of rhetoric is more likely to evoke images of you foaming at the mouth. Sorry, but it is just difficult to take such gross misrepresentations seriously. I think someone else had it right that you might want to lay off of the political discussions until you've developed the capacity to talk coherently about the issues.

Of course, that's just my opinion. I now await whatever backlash is consequent to it.

--Phin

[AnonEmouse]

As an Englishman, may I attempt to put some perspective into this?

I have family in America, NY in fact, so please understand me when I say this: 9/11 showed what a true hero is. Someone who attempts to safeguard others without concern for their own well being. I saw the documentary showing firemen going into the WTC before it collapsed. That is heroic.

What Tillman did was noble and worthy of respect, in signing up and wlaking away from the NFL. It showed a man willing to stand up for his principles. But in and of itself that act was not heroic. Had it not been for current political motivations, he may not even have been there. Joining up wsa not heroic, but it was noble. Again, I have respect for the man.

Was his death heroic? From its description, no it wasn't. He died in a firefight. He wasn't the only one. He wasn't saving anyone, at least not directly. He wasn't protecting anyone outside his squad (protecting his squad is his job, not in itself a heroic act).

So was he a hero? Well therein lies the rub. His acts individually were not heroic. Together, I'd still refer to them as noble, and certainly brave. But he was no more a hero than any other soldier that died in warfare. Maybe you think every soldier is a hero? I don't deny your right to think that. However, I think in this case, because of his NFL background, he got more publicity than 99% of the other casualties of Iraq and Afghanistan. The press made him a hero, not his actions. If he had never been a football player, we wouldn't have heard of him, let alone be having this "discussion".

I have respect for every soldier in every army, as they (for the most part) volunteer to put their lives at risk for their country. It doesn't make them heroes, and IMHO Pat Tillman isn't one either, just a very brave man. No more or less brave than any other soldier, policemen or fireman.

The original article I disagree with in principal, though not without thought for the misguided intent behind it. Even if he is wrong (and he is) he had the guts to write what he thought - published and was damned. As C said, the guy belittled the mans bravery and that was wrong, not his right to say it.

Final thought - If we make everyone a hero, then we may lose sight of the true heroes.

Oh and Dasel is right - move this thread out of here!

[RedskinRat]

Very eloquent, JoeRedskin, I fully agree.

[cpayne5]

I wonder if the newspaper in which the article was printed was a school sanctioned one. The school that I attend (http://cs.gmu.edu) has one sanctioned newspaper and another rogue paper, so aptly named "Expulsion", which expresses the radical ultra-liberal viewpoint. The Expulsion prints garbage like this all the time, but nobody really cares because they know the kind of crap it puts out all the time.

[Daseal]

Ok, let me state something first and foremost that people seem to be missing. I support our soldiers fully, however I don't think they should be put into the face of danger unless necessary. Which I don't feel dictators like Saddam, who I feel, don't pose an imminent threat. I am much more fearful of Kim Jong Il than I was of Saddam. Kim Jong Il we KNOW has a stockpile of nuclear weapons, hates the United States, but yet we don't touch him (oddly enough, Kim Jong Il has the largest Pornography collection of any single person, most are American films). I also said I don't agree with the reasoning behind the guy who wrote the articles basis. I think he's way off with the Rambo analogies, etc.

I just don't see Pat Tillman as a "hero." He was doing his job. He did a fine job, but we have to try to get over his fascination of him as a hero. He's a great roll model, and he's definitly someone that we can look up to. He followed his instinct and did what he thought was right, and I salute him for that.

Offiss, you're completely correct. Our country has an abundance. Now, just think what we could do if we spent that 40 mil a month on food, medicine, and water instead of bombs. I'm all for defending our freedom, but we're not doing that in Iraq. Afghanistan is a totally different scenario, and we should be patroling just because of all the evidence alone we could gather. Offiss, I think it's pretty obvious that the Iraqi people aren't overly thrilled about our forced democracy. Most of them are following one of a certain sect of priests. Why won't the US let the Iraqi people have the type of government they like. I liked the analogy Jon Stewart from the Daily Show used. He said (I'm paraphrasing, can't remember the exact quote) "The way we're trying to give Iraqi's freedom is similar to if after the revolution the French hung around, wrote our constitution for us, made us follow it, then left. We wouldn't have near the amount of nationalism that we do now." This makes a lot of sense to me. I mean, the "governing council" we've put in around Iraq are people that were Iraqi exiles in Brittain. The Iraqi's don't even feel of those people as their countrymen. They're American puppets. Also, I did refer to the fanatics in both Al-Quada and the White house together. I said they are both fanatics, although in different ways. The Koran says: "Has thou seen one who relies in religion that is one who is rough truly often." Considering instead of asking his father, a real war veteran, Bush prays. That's like getting in a car, hitting the accelerator, and praying it gets to your destination, it requires guidance, and no matter how much praying you do it is destined to fail without your willpower.

As a country we've been fucking the Muslim countries for a long time. Maybe we should help them instead of constantly hurt them and we wouldn't have problems.

Either way. This is no longer the Pat Tillman discussion. So once it is moved to the parking lot, I will respond again. Until then I'm not saying anything else (which who knows, Mods might never move it now.) For those of you saying I'm not fit to discuss politics, I'm tossing out facts about Bin Laden's family, our previous involvement with him, and other such things that you won't touch, but say I don't have a leg to stand on. You're entitled to your opinion, but counter those facts, please.

My opinions offer differ from other people, but I also try to see things from multiple angles. Let's get back to Redskins chat in this forum.

[offiss]

Originally Posted by Daseal

Ok, let me state something first and foremost that people seem to be missing. I support our soldiers fully, however I don't think they should be put into the face of danger unless necessary. Which I don't feel dictators like Saddam, who I feel, don't pose an imminent threat. I am much more fearful of Kim Jong Il than I was of Saddam. Kim Jong Il we KNOW has a stockpile of nuclear weapons, hates the United States, but yet we don't touch him (oddly enough, Kim Jong Il has the largest Pornography collection of any single person, most are American films). I also said I don't agree with the reasoning behind the guy who wrote the articles basis. I think he's way off with the Rambo analogies, etc.

I just don't see Pat Tillman as a "hero." He was doing his job. He did a fine job, but we have to try to get over his fascination of him as a hero. He's a great roll model, and he's definitly someone that we can look up to. He followed his instinct and did what he thought was right, and I salute him for that.

Offiss, you're completely correct. Our country has an abundance. Now, just think what we could do if we spent that 40 mil a month on food, medicine, and water instead of bombs. I'm all for defending our freedom, but we're not doing that in Iraq. Afghanistan is a totally different scenario, and we should be patroling just because of all the evidence alone we could gather. Offiss, I think it's pretty obvious that the Iraqi people aren't overly thrilled about our forced democracy. Most of them are following one of a certain sect of priests. Why won't the US let the Iraqi people have the type of government they like. I liked the analogy Jon Stewart from the Daily Show used. He said (I'm paraphrasing, can't remember the exact quote) "The way we're trying to give Iraqi's freedom is similar to if after the revolution the French hung around, wrote our constitution for us, made us follow it, then left. We wouldn't have near the amount of nationalism that we do now." This makes a lot of sense to me. I mean, the "governing council" we've put in around Iraq are people that were Iraqi exiles in Brittain. The Iraqi's don't even feel of those people as their countrymen. They're American puppets. Also, I did refer to the fanatics in both Al-Quada and the White house together. I said they are both fanatics, although in different ways. The Koran says: "Has thou seen one who relies in religion that is one who is rough truly often." Considering instead of asking his father, a real war veteran, Bush prays. That's like getting in a car, hitting the accelerator, and praying it gets to your destination, it requires guidance, and no matter how much praying you do it is destined to fail without your willpower.

As a country we've been fucking the Muslim countries for a long time. Maybe we should help them instead of constantly hurt them and we wouldn't have problems.

Either way. This is no longer the Pat Tillman discussion. So once it is moved to the parking lot, I will respond again. Until then I'm not saying anything else (which who knows, Mods might never move it now.) For those of you saying I'm not fit to discuss politics, I'm tossing out facts about Bin Laden's family, our previous involvement with him, and other such things that you won't touch, but say I don't have a leg to stand on. You're entitled to your opinion, but counter those facts, please.

My opinions offer differ from other people, but I also try to see things from multiple angles. Let's get back to Redskins chat in this forum.

And there it is, your nothing but a muslim sympathiser, as if they have provided any good to this world, they are as barbarick and hostile as any nation in history, if thier not trying to kill jew's or american's thier killing each other, that's all they do blame everyone else for thier condition, and kill anyone who disagree's with thier position, you talk about minding your own buisness, while these people are off anyplace they can forcing people to become muslim's or die, yea I will tell you what would happen with 40 mil. in food, medicine, and water, we then have a much better conditioned enemy with a better ability to recover from combat and fight some more, you obviously do not understand the mind set and the hatred the accompanies that religion, it's to bad no one thought of that idea during world war 2, we could have thrown some groceries at hitler and he would have rolled over and played nice, what where we thinking?

I will tell you why we can't let them have the kind of goverment they want, because it doesn't work! and we can not allow another regime to come to power who will put the US at danger again, further more why should we constantly provide all these billion's you say for good's for these people so they can live in a govt. of thier choosing, how about we show them how to take care of themselves? and it start's with god and democracy, give a man a fish and he eat's for a day, teach him how to fish and he eat's for a life time, there is a reason that the muslim nation is the poorest nation in the world, it's a godless nation, and until they have a change of heart it will alway's be.

[BrudLee]

Thread officially moved away from football. Feel free to continue.

[Daseal]

Appreciate it, Brud.

[Daseal]

How is that a stereotype? I didn't say all rednecks, I referred to the people who blindly aggressed other human beings as rednecks.

[cpayne5]

Originally Posted by Daseal

How is that a stereotype? I didn't say all rednecks, I referred to the people who blindly aggressed other human beings as rednecks.

Lol. Think about that last sentence.

[skinsfanthru&thru]

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...nightline_dc_6

anyone else agree with the Sinclair Broadcasting Group? unfortunately I do see how this program could be used for political purposes and that thought alone makes my stomach turn. to be honest if this is the reason for the list of names being read, i'm kinda suprised it wouldn't be aired on MTV with all of its pro-democratic bs meant to influence dim witted kids before they can build an opinion of their own based on info about both sides. and that's kinda scary thinking about how some kids get the majority of their version of the news from a channel that airs shows like jackass or i want a famous face.

and i ask in all sincerity, does anyone know of any news shows or channels which don't favor either the liberal or conservative side of the news, but rather a combination of the two? I'm personally tired of hearing the news thats one dimensional in its coverage. the closest i know about is the daily show, but i'd rather not hear the news everyday in a comedic form.

[SmootSmack]

He apologized

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=1792673