O-Line and ST questions

[Daseal]

First of all, why can't we leave an offensive line together for a while. We needed an obvious upgrade at Center, let's let these guys gel some. Continuity is key. Regardless of what many people think, I'm just happy to have a coaching staff that will at least give the organization some stability. I hope when Gibbs is ready to step down, he's able to hand the reins to Greg Williams, let's hire from within!

As far as Taylor, I think he'll wise up eventually. This is the type of charge that will probably either scare him straight, or send him into a downward spiral. This is going to be a critical year for him.

[PSUskinsfan11]

Ross Verba is a locker room cancer. The Browns got rid of him because of his attitude. There is no way in hell he is going to see the contract that he is trying to get. The only team semi interested in him is the Texans and I think I could start at tackle for them right now. Verba would not get the money he is looking for from us and he would not even challenge Samuels or Jansen for a starting spot so he would never sign with us anyway. Also, I am not 100% sold on Dockery but he has shown improvement and he is still very young. Why was he even brought up in conversation with Verba anyway? Verba=tackle Dockery=guard. In reguards to o-line depth Wilson and Molinaro are both young guys that the staff seem to like so why bring in a big contract when we could use the money at another spot. Gragg is a good DT but he is not a major upgrade over Noble or Salave'a so why waste time bringing someone else in to learn the system.

[mooby]

i don't even know why we are having a discussion about the o-line. our o-line is solid if healthy, the only one with any questions is derrick dockery, but we need to give him some time. and if he performs poorly we have the ageless wonder in ray brown. our o-line can be one of the best in the league if we give it some time.

[aprius]

Originally Posted by PSUskinsfan11

Why was he even brought up in conversation with Verba anyway? Verba=tackle Dockery=guard. In reguards to o-line depth Wilson and Molinaro are both young guys that the staff seem to like so why bring in a big contract when we could use the money at another spot. Gragg is a good DT but he is not a major upgrade over Noble or Salave'a so why waste time bringing someone else in to learn the system.

Please note that it says O-line questions at the title....Last I heard, OG was still on the O-line.
Scott Gragg besides having double letters at the end of his first and last names is also noted for being an OT not a DT.....hence the title of this thread.

:cool-smil

[aprius]

Originally Posted by sportscurmudgeon

Just a couple of comments here:

1. The Redskins are not permitted to re-do Taylor's contract now. The CBA forbids it. A rookie contract cannot be renegotiated until after one year passes from the date the original one was signed. So, if the Skins redid Taylor's deal now, they'd be fined by the league and the renegotiated contract would be voided.

2. I understand that someone who works for an employer that is going to pay that person millions of dollars might have to sacrifice some of his rights and freedoms to accommodate the wishes of his beneficient employer. But it seems like an awful lot to ask of someone that they waive their right to own a gun or a knife (does that include dinner knives so you can cut your T-Bone steak?) or to suffer a penalty when being charged with a crime. A baseball bat can be a lethal weapon; would it be reasonable to say that NFL contracts forbid a player to own a baseball bat?

3. "Innocent until proven guilty" has worked for about 220 years so I'd be reluctant to throw away all of that legal standing just because some athletes get in trouble.

4. Someone said that athletes would be forced to use better judgment. Sorr, but I have to disagree here. I don't think anyone can force anyone else to use good judgment - - particularly when there is not a whole lot of basis to say that the person in question has the ability to exercise good judgment. In Sean Taylor's case, I'm hard pressed to come up with a situation where the outcome showed that he used good judgment. Maybe it's because he felt no pressure to do so. OR maybe "good judgment" is beyond his capacity. He is after all a world class MEATHEAD.

5. Dockery was better last year than he was his rookie year. Dockery last year was still below average as a starting guard in the NFL. Can he improve? Sure, he's only a kid. Will he improve? That's the big question for the OL this year because if he does not improve, there will be a hole in the dike.

1. They can void the contract and re-do it that way. No penalty.

2. Dont be overly dramatic. I am not talking silverware unless it is bought with the intent to kill or harm. People can buy butcher knives to kill with and often do. Some of our worst killers used them.

3. Innocent until proven guilty doesnt work in business or politics. Why should it work in the NFL? The NFL is a massive business. Their employees(players) need more accountability. I was once fired for suspicion of doing something that 3 years later was proven to be done by my manager. I got an apology after the company went bankrupt because of him. The NFL can do the same thing. I am not saying he can not own a gun after he gets out of the NFL. After all, for most, NFL means Not For Long. Would you rather see one of the best safeties ever to roam the field or would you like him rotting in prison for murder one day?.....which it may come to if he keeps upping the ante. The DUI he got of on technicalities. He wont do that forever... even with Rosenhaus.

4. You said it yourself..."Maybe it's because he felt no pressure to do so." You proved my point for me. Thank you. You may wish to reiterate that and say you agree with me.

5. I disagree. I think Dockery played alot better in his rookie year and I think many coaches that watched him would agree. Ray Brown is not an answer....his body has to give out one day and it will be sooner than later.

[PSUSkinsFan21]

Originally Posted by aprius

Why havent we gone after Scott Gragg or Ross Verba?
Gragg is a very good backup and Verba is an excellent starter at Tackle.

For one, I've never even heard of Scott Gragg. Two, we already have decent depth on the o-line. Three, what good does a starting Tackle do? I'd rather not pay for a starting tackle that sits on the bench (because he's not going to see the field as long as Samuels and Jansen are healthy.

Why dont we renegotiate ST's contract to pay for any additions?
Heck, you could void it on a morality clause or insubordination or a thousand other reasons..

1. I don't think the skins want to completely throw any hope away of keeping ST for the long haul, and this would effectively cause nothing but hurt feelings and bad blood between ST and the skins.
2. ST wouldn't renegotiate for a lower contract.
3. We can't renegotiate the contract yet anyway (see SC's post).
4. We've already paid ST the bulk of his contract (7.2 million signing bonus.....so renegotiating now doesn't make sense).

I dont have a good feeling about the trial.
I think he will get probation.
I think he will not be playing this year in any uniform..

All reports seem to indicate that this case won't effect the '05 season. And if you have a bad feeling about the trial, then you shouldn't count on probation. IF the trial goes poorly, and IF he's convicted of what he's been charged with he's looking at 3 years minimum.

I hope they write into all contracts that players are not allowed to use or own guns or lethal weapons.
Guns and knives keep getting players into trouble.
They should also write into every contract that it is void if the player is CHARGED with a felony (not convicted), DUI or possession of drugs and all signing bonuses must be returned..

While I fully support certain restrictions and/or penalties on a player's off-field activities, I doubt many players would be willing to give up two constitutional rights in their private contracts with NFL teams (i.e. due process of law and right to bear arms). Not to mention the difficulties in instituting and policing such provisions.

[MTK]

aprius, If Dockery was so "awful" last year why did they not look to replace him this year??

In comparison, we painfully needed an upgrade at center and look what happened, we signed a center right out of the gate when free agency began.

Why did we not do the same for left guard?

Answer that question and you'll have your answer as to what the coaching staff thinks of Dockery.

[wolfeskins]

guns don't kill people.

people kill people.

[SmootSmack]

You're pretty convinced that our O-Line is a major weakness , aren't you Aprius?

[TheMalcolmConnection]

Jeez, since when did we start needing offensive line help?

[Sheriff Gonna Getcha]

In defense of Aprius, Dockery isn't a quality starting left guard. All too often, I see Dockery get beat on the pass rush, seemingly miss blocking assignments, and get called for false starts.

However, Dockery is developing and I don't think the coaching staff wanted to get rid of him just yet. Dockery certainly improved his play over 2003, but that doesn't say much of anything. Dockery could turn out to be a good starter, but he's not there yet. I think that's why Dockery wasn't replaced.

So, I understand why people might want an upgrade at left guard - with the addition of Rabach, he's certainly the worst offensive lineman on a good line But, I understand why the coaching staff didn't replace him.

[PSUskinsfan11]

Originally Posted by aprius

Please note that it says O-line questions at the title....Last I heard, OG was still on the O-line.
Scott Gragg besides having double letters at the end of his first and last names is also noted for being an OT not a DT.....hence the title of this thread.

If you were talking about o-line depth and brought up signing Verba or Gragg, who are both tackles, where does Dockery come into play? Also I confused Scott Gragg for Kelly Gregg the DT from the Ravens, sorry for the confusion.

[jrocx69]

first off, gragg is a well known player to whoever hasnt heard of him, BUT, he would be another Dave Fiore, and not play most of the season with a hefty contract. AND WHY SIGN VERBA?? WHY? HE'S A OT, NOT A OG. and as people have already stated, we have samuels and jansen as our tackles. ray brown is more than capable of playing LG for us 1 more season if dockery cant handle the load. and dockery would be a good back up. remember, browns original position is OG, the last 10 or so years. Samuels,Dockery,Rabach,Thomas,Jansen...the talent is there and about 30% of our cap...so what makes you think we need to hand out millions for another O-lineman? we dont.

[aprius]

Originally Posted by PSUSkinsFan21

For one, I've never even heard of Scott Gragg. Two, we already have decent depth on the o-line. Three, what good does a starting Tackle do? I'd rather not pay for a starting tackle that sits on the bench (because he's not going to see the field as long as Samuels and Jansen are healthy.

Verba would be a great addition because Samuels has not played up to potential for 2 or 3 years now and may never again. Gragg would give us a proven backup at tackle.
After that if we had one good starting guard to take Dockery's place and a proven back up center and guard and we would have our o-line complete.

1. I don't think the skins want to completely throw any hope away of keeping ST for the long haul, and this would effectively cause nothing but hurt feelings and bad blood between ST and the skins.
ST has never worried about the feelings of the coaches or teammates or FO. Dont worry about bad blood. It is already there.
2. ST wouldn't renegotiate for a lower contract. He will after the trial.
3. We can't renegotiate the contract yet anyway (see SC's post). Not without voiding it....which we could do right now.
4. We've already paid ST the bulk of his contract (7.2 million signing bonus.....so renegotiating now doesn't make sense). He will repay a large portion of that.



All reports seem to indicate that this case won't effect the '05 season. And if you have a bad feeling about the trial, then you shouldn't count on probation. IF the trial goes poorly, and IF he's convicted of what he's been charged with he's looking at 3 years minimum.

3 years of probation, community service, jail, suspended, combination of all of those.....
I just feel like ST is going to have a very hard life.
He sure is setting himself up for it.



While I fully support certain restrictions and/or penalties on a player's off-field activities, I doubt many players would be willing to give up two constitutional rights in their private contracts with NFL teams (i.e. due process of law and right to bear arms). Not to mention the difficulties in instituting and policing such provisions.

Dude, dont bring in The Constitution. It has nothing to do with business. You can get fired over a rumor. I know. I was. Was it illegal? No. Was it wrong? Yes. Can a business make you wear certain clothing even though you have freedm of choice? Can a business not hire a person of a certain religion or restrict ages? Yes, freely. The NBA has an age limit now. Oh my god! Stop the presses!....The Catholic Church only hires male Catholics to be priests. Where is the hue and cry for fairness by Pagan women? They have the 10 commandments in the Supreme Court Building!
Separation of church and state please! Dont bring up The Constitution again! Stupid argument.

[aprius]

Originally Posted by jrocx69

first off, gragg is a well known player to whoever hasnt heard of him, BUT, he would be another Dave Fiore, and not play most of the season with a hefty contract. AND WHY SIGN VERBA?? WHY? HE'S A OT, NOT A OG. and as people have already stated, we have samuels and jansen as our tackles. ray brown is more than capable of playing LG for us 1 more season if dockery cant handle the load. and dockery would be a good back up. remember, browns original position is OG, the last 10 or so years. Samuels,Dockery,Rabach,Thomas,Jansen...the talent is there and about 30% of our cap...so what makes you think we need to hand out millions for another O-lineman? we dont.

Whoa! Smoking something arent we?
Look at the thread title....
Dockery(G) and Verba(T) are O-line players and I have questions about both....
therefore....
can you put 2 and 2 together....
O-Line questions!!!!!
Hard to figure out....Jeez!
I know what position Dockery and Verba play but I figured anyone with a tiny bit of sense could interpret the meaning of my questions.
I am amazed how many people dont think about the title.
Brown is old and his body may give out this year or next....no one can say....but he is not going to be around long. (not at 42 or 43) He probably wont be able to take the day in day out pounding if Dockery goes down early in the season.
Dockery is a very good backup but was not a good starter last year.
Huge difference in starting and backing up.