thread of reason

Sheriff Gonna Getcha · 10-03-2004, 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SUNRA

Matty tried to set the tone for this thread which was let us reason together. But some of our fellow members aren't haven't it.

Does letting us reason together mean I accept your view?

JWsleep · 10-03-2004, 11:57 PM

It's time to panic mid way through NEXT SEASON if things are still not working. I'm serious. This is what an 8-8/7-9, readjusting to the coaches, players, NFL-type season looks like. And, as was pointed out, the losses were by 6, 3, and 4 points. It sucks. I hate it. But that's how it is right now.

As for Brunnel, he plays until Ramsey is ready. And Gibbs decides when that is. The offense isn't clicking, but Brunnel didn't put the ball on the ground; Portis and Coles did. Remember, Ramsey threw three absolutely lame INTs in the 1-1/2 QUARTERS he was out there last time. I say give Brunnell gets until the bye week to turn it around.

The o-line is a work in progress. Did they give up any sacks this week (I don't remember, maybe there was 1?). Against Dallas, there were 5. So that's better. Look, it's not just empty talk that it takes time to get an o-line working together. ANd it takes time for an RB and a line to get going. Since the o-line is the heart of a Gibbs team, until they work it out, it's not going to be pretty. We should still have won these games. But let's not break up the team!

The time management stuff is all about learning the formations and calling the plays efficiently. Again, just the sort of stuff that takes time to learn to do right. Yeah, it kills me to see it. But it'll come. Complex offense+new personel+Gibb's getting used to play calling again= bad time outs. oy.

Sheriff Gonna Getcha · 10-03-2004, 11:58 PM

I'm really not trying to be argumentative. I too would like to air out my opinion. I don't knock you for having your opinion and neither should you knock me for mine.

Calling my idea crap or implying that some people just won't listen to reason isn't appropriate. I love this site and I like everyone on it. But don't shut down debate. Am I wrong for saying that much?

skinsguy · 10-04-2004, 12:11 AM

I like Ramsey and I think he's going to be a good QB if he sticks with Gibbs and his coaching staff, but you hit on something in your first post that I believe the coaches need to work out and not the QB. The timing of lining up the O-line. Gibbs' offense is largely based on audibles at the line and different shifts of formation. I still have the SB with Rypien and Co on tape and I could tell ya that in that SB year, the Skins shifted SO much...nowadays the team doesn't have THAT much time to shift unless it goes to no huddle ALL the time. With that said, what Gibbs might have to do is go to a more modified version of his formations --- it's a feeling out phase for Gibbs getting used to the reduced play clock. Brunell hasn't been spectacular I know..but hey..his WRs are going to have to catch the ball and hold on to it..and they are going to have to get open down field! Brunell had to throw the ball away several times because of coverage.

Hogskin · 10-04-2004, 12:34 AM

My experience has been think all ideas are welcome on this site. But for God's sake, some guys can't even have enough character to respect the request of the guy that started THIS ONE thread. This was supposed to be a more rational/positive thread. jdlea and the others: There are PLENTY of other threads for you to bitch and moan in. Or you could start your own.

Anyhow, todays game was very disappointing. Looks like it will take a little farther into the season than I thought for Gibbs and company to get this team (and themselves) shaped up. But I am still totally confident it will happen this season. We won't win the Super Bowl this year, and may not even make the playoffs this year. (But I still have faith we will!) It would be nice if we did, but Redskin fans need to get over this idea of annual housecleaning, and learn some patience. This is a proven staff, and they WILL bring us to the promised land!!

Dirtbag · 10-04-2004, 12:49 AM

I'm in favor of analyzing our disastrous 1-3 start "reasonably," but let's remember that after the game, Joe Gibbs called this situation "a horrible time to be going through." And he's exactly right. We have had a horrible start and the players had better shape up quick. As longtime Redskins fans know, Gibbs cannot STAND fumbles and penalties. That's what makes our play so puzzling--this doesn't look like a Gibbs team at all. Perhaps that will come only with time.

redwagonskins · 10-04-2004, 02:04 AM

Here's my postive input. This time last year the Pats were 2-2 getting drubbed by the Bills and Spurrierskins. They have since won 18 in a row, more wins than the Bills and the Skins have combined for a couple of years. Now, I'm not saying we're going to the SB but when we stop making simple mistakes that I believe are the result of a team adjusting to a new coach and a coach who hasn't been in Football for a decade, we will be a competetive team and a future playoff power. I think our D stands up with the Pats and I think our offense has more talent. We just need time to get it together.

bedlamVR · 10-04-2004, 02:34 AM

I have to say people are moaning saying we were better last year but that was year two in the Spurrier eara and yet with esentially the same line Ramsey was being pummeled on a weekly basis and we were setting records for the number of penelties in a game.

The question is what we have to do to change now . None of the games we have lost have been out of reach and it does seem that players are not totally buying into the Gibbs scheme or they are not quite on the same page.

Comments about our run blocking are justified as Jansen was the run blocker on the line and Samuels the better pass blocker but listening to Portis is the running game seems bland and predicable right now, something needs to be done to mix up the schemes and maybe subbing him more to get a change of pace from Betts or Rock when he is struggling.

The thing is I still have faith, we have seen worse, it is heart wrenchingly disapointing to see us loose a games like this but it was heart wrenchingly disapointing to see us loose to the cowboys in thier 1-15 season but it happens.

AnonEmouse · 10-04-2004, 03:20 AM

My heart says Arrggghhh!, my head says we're learning. Anyone in coaching knows that sometimes you can have the most talented team in the league, but until they work out the chemistry, it will take time and hard work to get it right.

I don't think anyone is playing badly, I just think many are playing within themselves (Portis, Brunnel, Coles, OL, Taylor). Sooner or later one or more will have a break out game, or even just one play, that will set the tone. Then we'll se improvement.

All I think Taylor needs is one devastating hit over the middle or a savvy INT (for a TD please). Coles needs a TD. Portis needs a 150 to 250 yard game (w/o/fumbles) and Brunnel needs to be able to rely on the running game.

Our total points diff. this year is -7. Anyone tell me what it was in Schotty and Spurriers first 4 games? I got a feeling it compares favourably. We haven't lost a game by more than a TD so far, and that says we are in it. And you have to be in it to win it. (Cliches off)

Shane · 10-04-2004, 03:46 AM

What makes this a horrible time for the Redskins and fans is that the expectations for the team were unrealistic. If you reset your expectations, things are different.

We have some real difficulties now. I actually think its kind of fun to see how we are going to adapt to the circumstances with the personnel we have. To me a successful season isn't in the win loss column but how you deal with adversity.

I will say this - winning Super Bowl 17 was a lot more fun because of the 0-5 the season before. Everyone could see how the team worked so hard to overcome the challenges and it meant a lot more than if we had just won won won without any problems.

We have the best coaching staff on Earth, and that isn't changed by the occasional mistake. We have a solid core of players who are a super foundation for us. I am so grateful that Joe Gibbs is back. We are on our way.

The wise man said, "Patience is all the strength a man needs."

offiss · 10-04-2004, 05:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

Only cool heads allowed to post here.

No posts about Ramsey needs to start, Portis is a bust, the playcalling stinks, the ref in the booth needs to be fired, cut this guy, cut that guy, etc.

Call me crazy but I don't think we're far from turning this thing around. I think guys are pressing a bit right now. They're not 100% comfortable in the offensive system and they're thinking too much about assignments/responsibilities and not just playing football.

The first quarter of the season is over and I know 1-3 isn't pretty, but, we still have 3/4 of the season to go. If we can improve just one game per quarter we can finish still finish 10-6. There's still alot of ball to be played, and alot of room for improvement.

Cutting or benching guys and flip flopping starting QB's isn't the answer and Gibbs isn't going to panic and pull crap like this, so let's just forget about that nonsense and worry about the team mastering the system and improving the best they can week to week.

It's no secret I am high on Ramsey, I also know that unless Brunell get's hurt, Ramsey won't see the field, the problem I have is, Ramsey has the least amount of expierence, and the least amount of work in this new system, 1 that a seasoned veteran like Brunell is having difficulties mastering, and he's judged more critically than Brunell, I also know bringing in Ramsey now doesn't mean instant victory for us, he will have to go through the same growing pain's as Brunell, but he showed us against the Giant's that he can get the ball up and down the field in a hurry, yes he may make a mistake here or there, he's young, but he also gives us a better opportunity to score point's, Brunell was brought here for his expierence, but he's really just like a rookie out there because of the fact he has to learn a whole new system, I think the learning curve would be the same for Ramsey, and Ramsey's upside is much greater than Brunell's, Brunell was alway's a good playmaker, I never looked at him as a great passer, and with his leg's giving way to age, his playmaking abilities are on the way down, will he get better than he is now? Yes, but is he worth the effort at his age? Not considering he's 1 and 3 so far, I thought that was why we brought him here, to step in and win immediatly? With that said, I don't see any reason why this team won't, or can't, turn this thing around quickly, we have to much talent.

LRT · 10-04-2004, 08:34 AM

I know I don't post here often, but here are a couple of points I want to make as a long-time Skins fan...

1. As others have said, this is a rough time and there are a lot of problems, but patience and perseverance are the answer, not quick fixes.

2. We have a lot of problems, but they are fixable and we have already fixed a number of problems this season, such as botched center-quarterback exchanges. I have every confidence that we can work through these, too.

3. One of the big problems I think we're facing is that we all underestimated how bad the Skins have been as a team and caught up in the hype of how well certain players have performed in the past and in other places. A collection of good individual players doesn't make a good team. During the first Gibbs era, we rarely had the best players, but we usually had the best team. Building a real team, not to mention a winning team, takes time and effort, and that's what we're suffering through now. Despite the difficult slogging ahead, I'd still bet on at least 8-8 and a deep playoff run next season.

4. As for Portis, I think he is still learning a system that requires a back to think and wait for holes rather than just zoom off. That takes time. And, look at his age! The guy is a kid. Given the new system, I'd consider him practically a rookie. Now, that doesn't mean that he may not need to "ride the pine" a bit if he can't get the fumbling under control (and the fumbling seems to me to be related to his mishandling of the running scheme). However, I'm still glad we have and still expect good things from him.

5. As for Brunell, I do agree that he doesn't seem to be the same quarterback he used to be in Jacksonville. I think he's reached the point in his career where he may need to make some adjustments in his play to meet his ability. I also think he's still trying to master a new system along with the rest of the offense. Benching him would, I think, risk sending the wrong message to the team and wouldn't be Gibbs' style. However, it might be a good idea to start working Ramsey into some games to get him ready in case a change has to be made later.

6. If our defense is as good as it is with Arrington out, injuries on the DL and Taylor still playing like a rookie (mixing the bad with the good), how good will they be when we're healthy and Taylor has a bit more experience?

juggernaunt · 10-04-2004, 08:39 AM

even if were a season away from making some stide. were in the mentality at washington of 1 step foreward 2 steps back. we over payed for free agents again. i never wanted portis, i think we would have been better w/ draft picks. tell you know trde samuels in the offseason cause he'll eat up what room under the cap we will have...... until VINNY CERRATO goes dont expect anything from the redskins.... i'm begining 2 think its not the couches its VINNY. remember our only playoff team in the last 10 years was w/o CERRATO ..... maybe its not synder or the coaches its VINNY and his notalent picking GM skills.

backrow · 10-04-2004, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skinsguy

Look at the number of points we lost by in the last three games:

Giants: 6 points
Cowboys: 3 points
Browns: 4 points

We lost very winnable games, it wasn't that we were over powered by any means. I believe Gibbs is just as frustrated because he knows this as well. It is going to take some time.

I agree with this part of the above! We cut down & eliminate TO's! Turnovers and Timeouts! We win!

We run the ball more along with the above! We win! Simple formula to fix! We are not a bad 1-3 team!

Nobody believed me when I predicted 8-8! I'm not panicked! Just practical! I've seen too many games over the past 38 years!

MTK · 10-04-2004, 09:12 AM

I guess some people have missed the point of this thread.

oh well, sigh

Let's get back to putting together our weekly cut list!

10-03-2004, 11:57 PM	#17
JWsleep Propane and propane accessories Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Houston, TX Age: 55 Posts: 4,714	It's time to panic mid way through NEXT SEASON if things are still not working. I'm serious. This is what an 8-8/7-9, readjusting to the coaches, players, NFL-type season looks like. And, as was pointed out, the losses were by 6, 3, and 4 points. It sucks. I hate it. But that's how it is right now. As for Brunnel, he plays until Ramsey is ready. And Gibbs decides when that is. The offense isn't clicking, but Brunnel didn't put the ball on the ground; Portis and Coles did. Remember, Ramsey threw three absolutely lame INTs in the 1-1/2 QUARTERS he was out there last time. I say give Brunnell gets until the bye week to turn it around. The o-line is a work in progress. Did they give up any sacks this week (I don't remember, maybe there was 1?). Against Dallas, there were 5. So that's better. Look, it's not just empty talk that it takes time to get an o-line working together. ANd it takes time for an RB and a line to get going. Since the o-line is the heart of a Gibbs team, until they work it out, it's not going to be pretty. We should still have won these games. But let's not break up the team! The time management stuff is all about learning the formations and calling the plays efficiently. Again, just the sort of stuff that takes time to learn to do right. Yeah, it kills me to see it. But it'll come. Complex offense+new personel+Gibb's getting used to play calling again= bad time outs. oy. __________________ Hail from Houston!

10-04-2004, 12:34 AM	#20
Hogskin Impact Rookie Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Hartselle, Alabama Age: 83 Posts: 659	My experience has been think all ideas are welcome on this site. But for God's sake, some guys can't even have enough character to respect the request of the guy that started THIS ONE thread. This was supposed to be a more rational/positive thread. jdlea and the others: There are PLENTY of other threads for you to bitch and moan in. Or you could start your own. Anyhow, todays game was very disappointing. Looks like it will take a little farther into the season than I thought for Gibbs and company to get this team (and themselves) shaped up. But I am still totally confident it will happen this season. We won't win the Super Bowl this year, and may not even make the playoffs this year. (But I still have faith we will!) It would be nice if we did, but Redskin fans need to get over this idea of annual housecleaning, and learn some patience. This is a proven staff, and they WILL bring us to the promised land!! __________________ John Shaffer National Fantasy Sports Leagues, Inc. Home of "The BEST Game In Town" since 1990

10-04-2004, 08:39 AM	#28
juggernaunt Camp Scrub Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 47	i do think your nuts even if were a season away from making some stide. were in the mentality at washington of 1 step foreward 2 steps back. we over payed for free agents again. i never wanted portis, i think we would have been better w/ draft picks. tell you know trde samuels in the offseason cause he'll eat up what room under the cap we will have...... until VINNY CERRATO goes dont expect anything from the redskins.... i'm begining 2 think its not the couches its VINNY. remember our only playoff team in the last 10 years was w/o CERRATO ..... maybe its not synder or the coaches its VINNY and his notalent picking GM skills.

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10-03-2004, 11:58 PM	#18
Sheriff Gonna Getcha Franchise Player Join Date: Feb 2004 Age: 45 Posts: 8,317	I'm really not trying to be argumentative. I too would like to air out my opinion. I don't knock you for having your opinion and neither should you knock me for mine. Calling my idea crap or implying that some people just won't listen to reason isn't appropriate. I love this site and I like everyone on it. But don't shut down debate. Am I wrong for saying that much?

10-04-2004, 12:11 AM	#19
skinsguy Pro Bowl Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Greensboro, North Carolina Posts: 6,766	I like Ramsey and I think he's going to be a good QB if he sticks with Gibbs and his coaching staff, but you hit on something in your first post that I believe the coaches need to work out and not the QB. The timing of lining up the O-line. Gibbs' offense is largely based on audibles at the line and different shifts of formation. I still have the SB with Rypien and Co on tape and I could tell ya that in that SB year, the Skins shifted SO much...nowadays the team doesn't have THAT much time to shift unless it goes to no huddle ALL the time. With that said, what Gibbs might have to do is go to a more modified version of his formations --- it's a feeling out phase for Gibbs getting used to the reduced play clock. Brunell hasn't been spectacular I know..but hey..his WRs are going to have to catch the ball and hold on to it..and they are going to have to get open down field! Brunell had to throw the ball away several times because of coverage.

10-04-2004, 12:49 AM	#21
Dirtbag Special Teams Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 142	I'm in favor of analyzing our disastrous 1-3 start "reasonably," but let's remember that after the game, Joe Gibbs called this situation "a horrible time to be going through." And he's exactly right. We have had a horrible start and the players had better shape up quick. As longtime Redskins fans know, Gibbs cannot STAND fumbles and penalties. That's what makes our play so puzzling--this doesn't look like a Gibbs team at all. Perhaps that will come only with time.

10-04-2004, 02:04 AM	#22
redwagonskins Impact Rookie Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: San Diego Posts: 685	Here's my postive input. This time last year the Pats were 2-2 getting drubbed by the Bills and Spurrierskins. They have since won 18 in a row, more wins than the Bills and the Skins have combined for a couple of years. Now, I'm not saying we're going to the SB but when we stop making simple mistakes that I believe are the result of a team adjusting to a new coach and a coach who hasn't been in Football for a decade, we will be a competetive team and a future playoff power. I think our D stands up with the Pats and I think our offense has more talent. We just need time to get it together.

10-04-2004, 02:34 AM	#23
bedlamVR Special Teams Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 389	I have to say people are moaning saying we were better last year but that was year two in the Spurrier eara and yet with esentially the same line Ramsey was being pummeled on a weekly basis and we were setting records for the number of penelties in a game. The question is what we have to do to change now . None of the games we have lost have been out of reach and it does seem that players are not totally buying into the Gibbs scheme or they are not quite on the same page. Comments about our run blocking are justified as Jansen was the run blocker on the line and Samuels the better pass blocker but listening to Portis is the running game seems bland and predicable right now, something needs to be done to mix up the schemes and maybe subbing him more to get a change of pace from Betts or Rock when he is struggling. The thing is I still have faith, we have seen worse, it is heart wrenchingly disapointing to see us loose a games like this but it was heart wrenchingly disapointing to see us loose to the cowboys in thier 1-15 season but it happens.

10-04-2004, 03:20 AM	#24
AnonEmouse The Starter Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: UK Age: 58 Posts: 2,413	My heart says Arrggghhh!, my head says we're learning. Anyone in coaching knows that sometimes you can have the most talented team in the league, but until they work out the chemistry, it will take time and hard work to get it right. I don't think anyone is playing badly, I just think many are playing within themselves (Portis, Brunnel, Coles, OL, Taylor). Sooner or later one or more will have a break out game, or even just one play, that will set the tone. Then we'll se improvement. All I think Taylor needs is one devastating hit over the middle or a savvy INT (for a TD please). Coles needs a TD. Portis needs a 150 to 250 yard game (w/o/fumbles) and Brunnel needs to be able to rely on the running game. Our total points diff. this year is -7. Anyone tell me what it was in Schotty and Spurriers first 4 games? I got a feeling it compares favourably. We haven't lost a game by more than a TD so far, and that says we are in it. And you have to be in it to win it. (Cliches off)

10-04-2004, 03:46 AM	#25
Shane Special Teams Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 277	What makes this a horrible time for the Redskins and fans is that the expectations for the team were unrealistic. If you reset your expectations, things are different. We have some real difficulties now. I actually think its kind of fun to see how we are going to adapt to the circumstances with the personnel we have. To me a successful season isn't in the win loss column but how you deal with adversity. I will say this - winning Super Bowl 17 was a lot more fun because of the 0-5 the season before. Everyone could see how the team worked so hard to overcome the challenges and it meant a lot more than if we had just won won won without any problems. We have the best coaching staff on Earth, and that isn't changed by the occasional mistake. We have a solid core of players who are a super foundation for us. I am so grateful that Joe Gibbs is back. We are on our way. The wise man said, "Patience is all the strength a man needs."

10-04-2004, 08:34 AM	#27
LRT Special Teams Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Springfield, VA Age: 58 Posts: 174	I know I don't post here often, but here are a couple of points I want to make as a long-time Skins fan... 1. As others have said, this is a rough time and there are a lot of problems, but patience and perseverance are the answer, not quick fixes. 2. We have a lot of problems, but they are fixable and we have already fixed a number of problems this season, such as botched center-quarterback exchanges. I have every confidence that we can work through these, too. 3. One of the big problems I think we're facing is that we all underestimated how bad the Skins have been as a team and caught up in the hype of how well certain players have performed in the past and in other places. A collection of good individual players doesn't make a good team. During the first Gibbs era, we rarely had the best players, but we usually had the best team. Building a real team, not to mention a winning team, takes time and effort, and that's what we're suffering through now. Despite the difficult slogging ahead, I'd still bet on at least 8-8 and a deep playoff run next season. 4. As for Portis, I think he is still learning a system that requires a back to think and wait for holes rather than just zoom off. That takes time. And, look at his age! The guy is a kid. Given the new system, I'd consider him practically a rookie. Now, that doesn't mean that he may not need to "ride the pine" a bit if he can't get the fumbling under control (and the fumbling seems to me to be related to his mishandling of the running scheme). However, I'm still glad we have and still expect good things from him. 5. As for Brunell, I do agree that he doesn't seem to be the same quarterback he used to be in Jacksonville. I think he's reached the point in his career where he may need to make some adjustments in his play to meet his ability. I also think he's still trying to master a new system along with the rest of the offense. Benching him would, I think, risk sending the wrong message to the team and wouldn't be Gibbs' style. However, it might be a good idea to start working Ramsey into some games to get him ready in case a change has to be made later. 6. If our defense is as good as it is with Arrington out, injuries on the DL and Taylor still playing like a rookie (mixing the bad with the good), how good will they be when we're healthy and Taylor has a bit more experience?

10-04-2004, 09:12 AM	#30
MTK \m/ Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: NY Age: 52 Posts: 99,464	I guess some people have missed the point of this thread. oh well, sigh Let's get back to putting together our weekly cut list!

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