The Real Problem of the Redskins ...

[RedskinsfanTilldeath]

I agree that Dan Snyder may not be the best owner. But at the same time I still like the fact that he seems to be very determined to win. Snyder may not always go the best way about trying to win but atleast he has the desire. On the flip side I'm an O's fan as well, and Pete Angelos is a stingy bum who won't spend a nickel to get the O's better, no matter how embarassing the team is. Atleast I see an eagerness in Dan Snyder to win.

[Eknox]

Hopefully he will learn that if he's not careful 0-16 could be lurking

[firstdown]

Has anyone ever thought that maybe Joe Bugel is now part of the problem. I heard him on one of the Redskins show's durn training camp that our O line was looking very strong and blowing guys off the ball. He thought that the line was going to be a strength of the Skins. Maybe he thinks that this veterain line is good and points to injuries over the past couple of years as our problem. He has been here sense 2004 and maybe he has not pushed hard enough for us to draft any O Line players and felt what we had would do. Now I do remember that Vinny wanted a lineman this year in the draft but the ones we wanted where gone by the time we had our pick. So who really knows who is at fault for not drafting any O line.

[irish]

Originally Posted by firstdown

Has anyone ever thought that maybe Joe Bugel is now part of the problem. I heard him on one of the Redskins show's durn training camp that our O line was looking very strong and blowing guys off the ball. He thought that the line was going to be a strength of the Skins. Maybe he thinks that this veterain line is good and points to injuries over the past couple of years as our problem. He has been here sense 2004 and maybe he has not pushed hard enough for us to draft any O Line players and felt what we had would do. Now I do remember that Vinny wanted a lineman this year in the draft but the ones we wanted where gone by the time we had our pick. So who really knows who is at fault for not drafting any O line.

I love Bugel but I wish all of Gibbs' coaches had be let go when Zorn came in so that the slate could be wiped clean.

[Hog1]

Originally Posted by irish

I love Bugel but I wish all of Gibbs' coaches had be let go when Zorn came in so that the slate could be wiped clean.

If they are going to let him go, I hope they do it......tactfully. I would hate for Buges to get hurt to much!

[irish]

Originally Posted by Hog1

If they are going to let him go, I hope they do it......tactfully. I would hate for Buges to get hurt to much!

I agree. Buges is great. I hope I have his energy when I get to his age.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by Skinny Tee

It's funny how everyone cites the Skins to use the blueprint of our Super Bowl runs years ago. They calmour to bring back Gibbs, the modern day form of the smurfs in Moss and Randle El, and the counter-tre formations but no one ever talks about investing high round draft picks on OL to build our next competitive foundation like the hogs.

First, I agree we need to rebuild the OL & DL. But I would argue the OL was addressed, through Free Agency and by in-house high round picks. Unfortunately, father time caught up with us about 12 weeks too early.

Samuels - 1st Rounder
Jansen - early 2nd rounder
Rabach - 3rd rounder, FA pick-up
Thomas - 2nd rounder, FA pick-up
Kendall - 1st rounder, FA pick-up

Also to dispell any misconceptions, the Hogs were built by Bethard/Gibbs/Bugel through the later rounds and from Bugel's great coaching, not high draft picks. Lachey and May were the exceptions:

Lachey - 1st
May - 1st
Jacoby - Undrafted
Grimm - 3rd
McKenzie - 11th
Schlereth - 10th
Simmons - 6th
Bostic - Undrafted
Starke - 11th

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

First, I agree we need to rebuild the OL & DL. But I would argue the OL was addressed, through Free Agency and by in-house high round picks. Unfortunately, father time caught up with us about 12 weeks too early.

Samuels - 1st Rounder
Jansen - early 2nd rounder
Rabach - 3rd rounder, FA pick-up
Thomas - 2nd rounder, FA pick-up
Kendall - 1st rounder, FA pick-up

Also to dispell any misconceptions, the Hogs were built by Bethard/Gibbs/Bugel through the later rounds and from Bugel's great coaching, not high draft picks. Lachey and May were the exceptions:

Lachey - 1st
May - 1st
Jacoby - Undrafted
Grimm - 3rd
McKenzie - 11th
Schlereth - 10th
Simmons - 6th
Bostic - Undrafted
Starke - 11th

I've tried addressing this latter point on multiple occassions and it constantly falls on deaf ears (or I guess blind eyes in our world). People think that Jacoby, Starke, etc. walked in as The Hogs. Not true, they became The Hogs.

[Skinny Tee]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

First, I agree we need to rebuild the OL & DL. But I would argue the OL was addressed, through Free Agency and by in-house high round picks. Unfortunately, father time caught up with us about 12 weeks too early.

Samuels - 1st Rounder
Jansen - early 2nd rounder
Rabach - 3rd rounder, FA pick-up
Thomas - 2nd rounder, FA pick-up
Kendall - 1st rounder, FA pick-up

Also to dispell any misconceptions, the Hogs were built by Bethard/Gibbs/Bugel through the later rounds and from Bugel's great coaching, not high draft picks. Lachey and May were the exceptions:

Lachey - 1st
May - 1st
Jacoby - Undrafted
Grimm - 3rd
McKenzie - 11th
Schlereth - 10th
Simmons - 6th
Bostic - Undrafted
Starke - 11th

Nice insight.

The Skins have selected some lineman in the last ten years, that is a given, but like I said before, we can't look at Super Bowl years and recapture it by mimicking those individual transactions. Major changes to the game, like Free Agency and having a higher class of athletes, make those strategies archaic. We obviously can't use low draft picks like they did in the past, that is obsolete in this environment.

What we can do is see that our past teams had strong and deep lines that dominated the competitive games they played. Let's take that and implement that foundational idea to the modern era, as opposed to finding a replicate Monk or Gibbs.

[Slingin Sammy 33]

Originally Posted by Skinny Tee

we can't look at Super Bowl years and recapture it by mimicking those individual transactions. Major changes to the game, like Free Agency and having a higher class of athletes, make those strategies archaic. We obviously can't use low draft picks like they did in the past, that is obsolete in this environment.

What we can do is see that our past teams had strong and deep lines that dominated the competitive games they played. Let's take that and implement that foundational idea to the modern era, as opposed to finding a replicate Monk or Gibbs.

I think we agree that a SB level team needs to be top 10 level on the OL and top 10 in defense (which starts on the DL). We're just looking at it from slightly different angles. I just don't think things are as easy as saying Snyderatto is the root of all evil and must be exorcised (I'm not suggesting that you're saying this).

When Gibbs came in we were a disaster. In his four years we made the playoff twice. Not too bad IMO. When Gibbs left we had the following issues to address:

In addition to a new Offensive and Defensive system....
1) DL needed a LDE and DT
2) Mcintosh knees were a question
3) Washington was starting to show signs of aging
4) A young, top 5 defensive player had just been tragically taken from us.
5) Springs' health
6) Rogers health/abilities were in question

7) Developing QB going into another new offense
8) no quality WR over 5' 9"
9) OL that appeared fairly solid, but was aging. Several veterans had either signed new deals or restructures limiting their movement/release.

No way all those issues would be addressed in one year. What happened:

1) No LDE or DT that was highly rated was available when we picked. Unless I'm mistaken none of the DL that we passed over made an impact this year. Our projected starting DE is out for the year in training camp so Cerrato makes a move in desperation that is boom or bust, unfortunately it busts. I don't think many foresaw how poorly Taylor would play this year. I was hesitant with his move to LDE and felt he would be a liability against the run, but I thought he still had some pass rush left (unfortunately I was wrong on the pass rush part).
2) McIntosh rebounded a bit but will not develop into a superstar, just a solid LB.
3) Washington's age caught up to him and he's defintely in the twilight of his career
4) Landry moves to FS, plays well. Cerrato finds a gem in Horton in the late rounds of the draft.
5) Springs' health/cap number are still an issue, however Cerrato brings in Hall.
6) Rogers has a solid season and answers most doubters.

7) Campbell improves and puts up excellent numbers until the OL breaks down mid-season. His QB rating overall was up over 7 points from last year even with a weaker OL. This is in no small part to Zorn's coaching.
8) Drafted two WRs who should develop into starting NFL WRs, one 6'2", the other 6'4"
9) Rinehardt drafted 3rd round. Heyer developing. OL age catches up to them and we need to rebuild faster than anticipated. Currently we have solid depth but need a starting C, and either a starting G or T.

My point is, the FO isn't as stupid and incompetent as some would like to make it seem. Nor is the coaching staff. Many analysts had us in the 6-10 range this season. If we are able to address 70% of the holes on the OL & DL this off-season we should be very competitive in 2009 & 2010.

[The Goat]

Originally Posted by firstdown

Has anyone ever thought that maybe Joe Bugel is now part of the problem. I heard him on one of the Redskins show's durn training camp that our O line was looking very strong and blowing guys off the ball. He thought that the line was going to be a strength of the Skins. Maybe he thinks that this veterain line is good and points to injuries over the past couple of years as our problem. He has been here sense 2004 and maybe he has not pushed hard enough for us to draft any O Line players and felt what we had would do. Now I do remember that Vinny wanted a lineman this year in the draft but the ones we wanted where gone by the time we had our pick. So who really knows who is at fault for not drafting any O line.

Yes. But i've been hesitant to say anything because 1) Buges has almost legendary status w/ a lot of fans 2) I don't how much his truly tragic personal life issues had to do w/ the o-lines horrendous performance. I will say that last year after Thomas/Jansen went down I thought the line was decent considering our backups, but I thought it critical we add young talent that could make an impact. When the FO didn't get that done (who knows where Rinhardt is in his development) I knew it would be on Buges to make miracles happen w/ an old creaky group. There were no miracles: this is the smallest, slowest and oldest line in the NFC east and it shows every minute of the game.

[HTTR]

It's sad to hear us defending the FO and/or Snyder by saying they're not completely bad. That's the point: we're a MEDIOCRE franchise at best. The proof is in the pudding, folks. And the pudding doesn't taste good. In any other business, the board of directors would fire the CEO and try someone new. And Snyder IS the CEO, period. Whether Snyder is making personnel decisions 100% or only 70% is beside the point. He hasn't established a good system in Washington -- we're almost as dysfunctional as it gets in the NFL, save a few real train wrecks. This article speaks the truth.

[tryfuhl]

Originally Posted by Slingin Sammy 33

First, I agree we need to rebuild the OL & DL. But I would argue the OL was addressed, through Free Agency and by in-house high round picks. Unfortunately, father time caught up with us about 12 weeks too early.

Samuels - 1st Rounder
Jansen - early 2nd rounder
Rabach - 3rd rounder, FA pick-up
Thomas - 2nd rounder, FA pick-up
Kendall - 1st rounder, FA pick-up

Also to dispell any misconceptions, the Hogs were built by Bethard/Gibbs/Bugel through the later rounds and from Bugel's great coaching, not high draft picks. Lachey and May were the exceptions:

Lachey - 1st
May - 1st
Jacoby - Undrafted
Grimm - 3rd
McKenzie - 11th
Schlereth - 10th
Simmons - 6th
Bostic - Undrafted
Starke - 11th

I agree, but that includes picks over 20 years ago.. and many diff offensive and defensive schemes have come around since

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by tryfuhl

I agree, but that includes picks over 20 years ago.. and many diff offensive and defensive schemes have come around since

I'm not following your argument here

[tryfuhl]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

I'm not following your argument here

OL is becoming almost a skill position with the assignments and more complex schemes which they've had to run and defend against. It's not as much of a push with power position as it used to be.. granted that's still a huge thing no doubt

The position has grown up.. that's not to take anything away from the Hogs, they deserve HOF.. all of them.. just nowadays you need guys that are more athletic and can do more things.. you can't play drunk in the NFL anymore and just pound beer after practice and still be top caliber