Fresh Start Political Thread

[nonniey]

Most Americans in general don't grasp this. You'd think someone who is President could (unfortunately the last two don't/didn't) Good explanation on what we were doing in Afghanistan and why leaving was an idiotic mistake.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/ar...ar_146300.html

[SunnySide]

Originally Posted by nonniey

Most Americans in general don't grasp this. You'd think someone who is President could (unfortunately the last two don't/didn't) Good explanation on what we were doing in Afghanistan and why leaving was an idiotic mistake.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/ar...ar_146300.html

There was no finite game of war for us to win, declare victory, and return from. Our mission in that mountainous, tribal, quasi-nation-state that fostered terrorists was never to achieve a victory and head home. It was to maintain the minimum military presence necessary to ensure order and stop violent terrorists. It was not an “endless war” but an infinite game.

^^^ conclusion from the article you cited.

I can see the benefit of that but after the ANA folded and bribed away, learning that the 300k army we were paying for was actually 100k, the level of funds mismanagement, cost of all these contractors and "friendlies" .. plus the annual cost of just paying aid to afghanistan govt

Was it worth continuing the charade?

I say no.

[nonniey]

Originally Posted by SunnySide

There was no finite game of war for us to win, declare victory, and return from. Our mission in that mountainous, tribal, quasi-nation-state that fostered terrorists was never to achieve a victory and head home. It was to maintain the minimum military presence necessary to ensure order and stop violent terrorists. It was not an “endless war” but an infinite game.

^^^ conclusion from the article you cited.

I can see the benefit of that but after the ANA folded and bribed away, learning that the 300k army we were paying for was actually 100k, the level of funds mismanagement, cost of all these contractors and "friendlies" .. plus the annual cost of just paying aid to afghanistan govt

Was it worth continuing the charade?

I say no.

It certainly appears like we are paying an enormously higher price (Prestige, trust, lives and yes probably treasure too(which you were highlighting)) in leaving than we would have if we stayed. In other words it certainly looks like it was worth staying. Due to this surrender, we've already payed more in lives than we had in the last 18 months and frankly I'm sure other Americans have already been killed there that we don't know about yet and more will killed due to our surrender of Afghanistan to the Taliban.

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by nonniey

It certainly appears like we are paying an enormously higher price in leaving than we would have if we stayed. In other words it certainly looks like it was worth staying. We've already payed more in lives than we had in the last 18 months and frankly I'm sure other Americans have already been killed there that we don't know about yet and more will killed due to our surrender of Afghanistan to the Taliban.

I am really torn, overall I supported exiting Afghanistan, but at the same point we still have troops in Europe 75 years after WWII. The main difference I guess is that Europe had functioning governments that chose to stay connected not puppet governments. If people in any country choose not to defend themselves and create a stable form of government, then we can't count that cost of exiting as anything but the acceptance that we are not an empire, world police organization, or dictatorship; and we should have left long ago.

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[nonniey]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

I am really torn, overall I supported exiting Afghanistan, but at the same point we still have troops in Europe 75 years after WWII. The main difference I guess is that Europe had functioning governments that chose to stay connected not puppet governments. If people in any country choose not to defend themselves and create a stable form of government, then we can't count that cost of exiting as anything but the acceptance that we are not an empire, world police organization, or dictatorship; and we should have left long ago.

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We are all wrong at times, admitting one was wrong in a position one took is something most won't do. You look like you are mulling over admitting supporting an exit was the wrong position to take.

[BaltimoreSkins]

Originally Posted by CRedskinsRule

I am really torn, overall I supported exiting Afghanistan, but at the same point we still have troops in Europe 75 years after WWII. The main difference I guess is that Europe had functioning governments that chose to stay connected not puppet governments. If people in any country choose not to defend themselves and create a stable form of government, then we can't count that cost of exiting as anything but the acceptance that we are not an empire, world police organization, or dictatorship; and we should have left long ago.

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I think it was the right decision but bad planning. All of our allies should have been evacuated before a reduced military presence. I have read a lot recently that the Afghan people not really happy with the government the US established and that in and of itself is part of the collapse. I will confess after 9/11 I was more than okay with the decision to go into Afghanistan. As time went on, we killed Bin Laden and still didn't leave I began to question why we were ever there.

[SunnySide]

Originally Posted by nonniey

It certainly appears like we are paying an enormously higher price (Prestige, trust, lives and yes probably treasure too(which you were highlighting)) in leaving than we would have if we stayed. In other words it certainly looks like it was worth staying. Due to this surrender, we've already payed more in lives than we had in the last 18 months and frankly I'm sure other Americans have already been killed there that we don't know about yet and more will killed due to our surrender of Afghanistan to the Taliban.

ive heard 3 things so far that I agree with.

1. from day 1 back in early 2000 .. perhaps the best approach wouldnt have been to try and stabilize the entire country and competing tribes but take like half of it, fortify that area and let the other half be taliban a al S Korea and N Korea.

2. may 1 withdrawl (while still being rushed and imperfect) was a better date bc that would have been right at beginning of the fighting season and the Taliban wouldnt have been poised to threaten Kabul so quickly .. vs now, august right in the middle of the war season.

3. If we stayed, it wasnt going to as "peaceful" as it had been the past few years. I think the calmness the past few years was conditioned on us leaving.

For whatever its worth, this keyboard warrior is glad we are pulling out.

[nonniey]

Originally Posted by SunnySide

ive heard 3 things so far that I agree with.

1. from day 1 back in early 2000 .. perhaps the best approach wouldnt have been to try and stabilize the entire country and competing tribes but take like half of it, fortify that area and let the other half be taliban a al S Korea and N Korea.

2. may 1 withdrawl (while still being rushed and imperfect) was a better date bc that would have been right at beginning of the fighting season and the Taliban wouldnt have been poised to threaten Kabul so quickly .. vs now, august right in the middle of the war season.

3. If we stayed, it wasnt going to as "peaceful" as it had been the past few years. I think the calmness the past few years was conditioned on us leaving.

For whatever its worth, this keyboard warrior is glad we are pulling out.

RE Point 3. The "peaceful" period goes back to 2014 years before anyone in power was proposing leaving. We had this under control and along came Trump and Biden who thought surrender was the better option. It is now readily apparent it was the worst choice that could have been made.

[Giantone]

Originally Posted by nonniey

RE Point 3. The "peaceful" period goes back to 2014 years before anyone in power was proposing leaving. We had this under control and along came Trump and Biden who thought surrender was the better option. It is now readily apparent it was the worst choice that could have been made.

Surrender??? WTF? We trained 350,000 Afghan citizens to defend their own Country. We gave them ,support in every way imaginable ,our Country was /is overwhelmingly for getting out of that shit hole. I have said before I feel for all still there but when do they take responsibility for themselves? This was not a surprise to anyone why were people waiting to leave?

[nonniey]

[QUOTE=Giantone;1288331..... /is overwhelmingly for getting out of that shit hole.......[/QUOTE]

Like I posted above it is hard for people to admit they supported the wrong position even when events clearly show it to be the wrong position. There is no question now (none!) that the wrong decision was made by both Trump and Biden in surrendering Afghanistan to the Taliban (and yes surrender is the right word for it - get used to it too as that term is starting to take hold - see link below). We are paying a high price for their ineptitude and will continue to pay it for years to come.


https://www.militarytimes.com/opinio...-of-surrender/