Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?

[JoeRedskin]

Coming to this one late.. but I agree w/ freddyg12's assessment. I get that off-the-field character issues (for example - Lawrence Taylor) are not considered. TO's character issues, however, affected his team's play on the field and had a negative effect on the long term stability of those teams and their ability to remain competitive.

TO blew up a competitive SF team by forcing a competent starter out of town and was, as I recall, accused fostering/creating a negative "me-first" attitude amongst the young receivers. In Philly, yes - they got to the SB with him BUT, after that, he again tosses his QB under the bus, gets suspended for insubordination, and creates a situation where he cannot remain as part of the team. Rinse, Recycle and repeat in Dallas. Teams find ways to keep guys who, in their prime, are going to be HOF'ers. In TO's case, teams looked for ways to get rid of him.

How many HOF'ers had to be cut to preserve the team? Maybe there are some, I can't think of any. Someone name me a player in the HOF that was as big a team cancer as TO - not someone who was a jackass or who was difficult - someone who forced teams to dump the player and reconstruct themselves as a team.

I am sorry, HOF'ers (certainly first ballot HOF'ers) do not create destructive team situations. TO did just that.

[freddyg12]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

Coming to this one late.. but I agree w/ freddyg12's assessment. I get that off-the-field character issues (for example - Lawrence Taylor) are not considered. TO's character issues, however, affected his team's play on the field and had a negative effect on the long term stability of those teams and their ability to remain competitive.

TO blew up a competitive SF team by forcing a competent starter out of town and was, as I recall, accused fostering/creating a negative "me-first" attitude amongst the young receivers. In Philly, yes - they got to the SB with him BUT, after that, he again tosses his QB under the bus, gets suspended for insubordination, and creates a situation where he cannot remain as part of the team. Rinse, Recycle and repeat in Dallas. Teams find ways to keep guys who, in their prime, are going to be HOF'ers. In TO's case, teams looked for ways to get rid of him.

How many HOF'ers had to be cut to preserve the team? Maybe there are some, I can't think of any. Someone name me a player in the HOF that was as big a team cancer as TO - not someone who was a jackass or who was difficult - someone who forced teams to dump the player and reconstruct themselves as a team.

I am sorry, HOF'ers (certainly first ballot HOF'ers) do not create destructive team situations. TO did just that.

Nice Joe! well said, thanks.

[MTK]

Originally Posted by freddyg12

I don't think so, and that's my point, he should be judged by his impact on his teams, which includes both great plays & shenanigans on & off the field. You can't separate his production from his behavior. While some here have said the hall is not based on "character" I agree, but it can be based on something simple like helping your team win. I would argue he countered all of his positives equally or more so w/negatives in that area.

This will be an interesting one for Hall voters. They've shown that a player's personal problems off the field have not kept them out of the hall, but have they ever dealt w/a player who's conduct on & off field was so detrimental to his team?

I still view the issues separately. In many instances his production trumped his PIA factor, sometimes not, but overall his production is just undeniable.

So do you think he's a HOF player or no?

[JoeRedskin]

After C. Carter, M. Harrison, T. Brown, A. Reed. But not in front of any of them. If they are all in by the time he is eligible, he still needs to sit a couple years.

If I was voter, I would eventually vote for him, holding my nose the entire time. He is the antithesis of team in a team game.

[SmootSmack]

I don't remember TO blowing up a competitive San Fran team

[NLC1054]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

I don't remember TO blowing up a competitive San Fran team

I think the tales of T.O destroying locker rooms is overblown sometimes. Wasn't he a team captain in Dallas? And wasn't here there for a while before they finally let him go?

It seems like he gets in trouble with coaches, maybe with F.O, but I don't know how many players would say T.O was a bad teammate. Well, except for McNabb. He wants the ball, sure. He DEMANDS the ball.

But all elite receivers want the ball. Jerry Rice wanted the ball. Hell, part of the reason he left San Fransisco was because T.O was getting the ball. Some receivers are more vocal than others, and his antics get him a bad wrap, but all those number one guys are going to complain when they don't get the ball thrown their way.

T.O won't make it in on the first go around, but he should be worth of consideration to make it in the first time around.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

I don't remember TO blowing up a competitive San Fran team

In 2001 SF was 12-4
2002 SF was 10-6
2003 SF was 7-9

In each of those years Garcia was QB and Owens the leading receiver. In the 2002, after a play-off loss Owens started in on Garcia. During 2003, as I recall, Owens was constantly making accusations and insinuations about Garcia's ability calling for him to be replaced by that HOF'er in the making Tim Rattay. After the 2003 season both Garcia & Owens left SF - Marriuci fleeing the year before. Again, as I recall, it was a messy divorce all the way around - made messier by Owens usual antics. The 49'ers went 2-14 & 4-12 the following two years. Sure, it wasn't all Owens - but he seemed to be the catalyst.

Typical Terrell Owens in this relationship. Jeff Garcia and T.O. led the San Francisco 49ers into the playoffs, where they beat the New York Giants. The next game they lost against the Tampa Bay Buccaneers.

All fingers were pointed at Garcia by T.O. and he eventually called Garcia some very disrespectful names. This relationship ended shortly after that. Off to the Philadelphia Eagles for Owens.

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[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

In 2001 SF was 12-4
2002 SF was 10-6
2003 SF was 7-9

In each of those years Garcia was QB and Owens the leading receiver. In the 2002, after a play-off loss Owens started in on Garcia. During 2003, as I recall, Owens was constantly making accusations and insinuations about Garcia's ability calling for him to be replaced by that HOF'er in the making Tim Rattay. After the 2003 season both Garcia & Owens left SF - Marriuci fleeing the year before. Again, as I recall, it was a messy divorce all the way around - made messier by Owens usual antics. The 49'ers went 2-14 & 4-12 the following two years. Sure, it wasn't all Owens - but he seemed to be the catalyst.



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I think you're giving TO too much credit here. San Fran was crippled by salary cap woes, aging veterans, poor draft picks, little to no confidence in Mariucci, among other things. And the first time TO really said anything about Garcia was after they were teammates in his Playboy interview.

Plus, Garcia was just as vocal a critic as TO of the offense.

And I don't know that he was constantly calling for Rattay to start, but that he did well when pressed to play

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[JoeRedskin]

Perhaps - I am operating mostly from memory (I remember Garcia's father being quoted as saying something like "He [Owens] should just shut up and catch the ball"). Yes, SF had issues and were on there way down with or without TO and maybe my "I hate Owens" is slipping in to cloud my memory. So to say he blew up a competetive team may be an overstatement of his influence and of the caliber of team. At the same time, he made sure he was persona non grata in SF and, to my mind, was a major reason why Garcia left.

As I said, based on my recollection of the events, Owens seemed to be the catalyst for the implosion and certainly did nothing to hinder it.

[freddyg12]

Originally Posted by Mattyk

I still view the issues separately. In many instances his production trumped his PIA factor, sometimes not, but overall his production is just undeniable.

So do you think he's a HOF player or no?

Obviously I think he shouldn't be & I think his case could provide the hall w/some new guidance for evaluation. But if your question is do I think he'll get in? Definintely not first ballot but he's likely to get in several years later cause time heals all wounds. also, the wr position is one that is debated by hall voters a lot it seems. Will be interesting to watch this one.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

Perhaps - I am operating mostly from memory (I remember Garcia's father being quoted as saying something like "He [Owens] should just shut up and catch the ball"). Yes, SF had issues and were on there way down with or without TO and maybe my "I hate Owens" is slipping in to cloud my memory. So to say he blew up a competetive team may be an overstatement of his influence and of the caliber of team. At the same time, he made sure he was persona non grata in SF and, to my mind, was a major reason why Garcia left.

As I said, based on my recollection of the events, Owens seemed to be the catalyst for the implosion and certainly did nothing to hinder it.

Garcia left because he wouldn't agree to another contract restructuring so the Niners let him go for cap considerations. Plus, it'd be tough to say TO forced Garcia out, or was a major reason he left, since they both left within a couple of days of each other

[freddyg12]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Garcia left because he wouldn't agree to another contract restructuring so the Niners let him go for cap considerations. Plus, it'd be tough to say TO forced Garcia out, or was a major reason he left, since they both left within a couple of days of each other

I think Joe's overall point isn't much debated though, TO began his public airing of grievances w/his QBs w/Garcia, even insinuating he was gay.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by freddyg12

I think Joe's overall point isn't much debated though, TO began his public airing of grievances w/his QBs w/Garcia, even insinuating he was gay.

Yeah after they were both no longer teammates, TO made an unnecessary comment in response to a question specifically asking if Garcia was gay. That's not the same as he destroyed a good 49ers team and was the catalyst for Garcia leaving and the franchise falling apart.