It's Talent, Not Coaching.

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by SirClintonPortis

Well, I'm not buying what you're selling that everyone on the D simply sucks because of the players being oh so horrible, especially since a good deal of the defense sucking last year was because of LaRon Landry, who is our most improved player this year. Not only that, I've cited at three guys who have had at least some success in the 4-3 and now are falling like rocks thanks to the 3-4. The aspect of the D that has stayed mostly the same is the secondary outside of Landry. And anyone with a brain(i.e Spags) would have put LL in the strong safety role.

You can't have it both ways. There is AMPLE evidence of stud 4-3 players sucking in a 3-4 and vice versa.

Right. So all we have to do is get Orakpo, Haynesworth, Golston, and Carter back up at the front four, with McIntosh, Fletcher, and Blades or Wilson at linebacker -- then we can sit back and watch the magical defensive turn-around.

This team just isn't as good as you think it is.

[SirClintonPortis]

Originally Posted by over the mountain

trent williams - rookie, cost us our 1st round draft pick
banks - free
torain - free
brown - a 3rd or 4th round pick
mcnabb - 2nd and 3/4th rounder
carriker - moved back 15-20 spots in 5th round

the moves were designed to upgrade this team. mcnabb upgraded the qb position for this season plus the next 2 years at a cost of a 2nd and 3 or 4th rounder. j brown could be a steal if he gets back to form/pro bowl and he if he stays he is going to lock down the RT spot for years to come. trent locks down the LT.

getting 2 spots on the O line locked down for years to come, one is hopefully going to be a stud LT, is progress and upgrade.

it sucks we dont have the talent at the DL or linebacker position, makke (sp?) has disappointed and AH is a disgruntled pos.

we need to add atleast 1 more O lineman with our 1 or 2 rounder. it sucks thomas, kelly didnt solidify our receiving corps, to have 3 2nd rounders and pretty much walk away with nothing just flat out sucks. wtf was vinny thinking overloading on that position when samuels, jansen, thomas, kendall all had 1 foot in the grave.

fact is we have upgraded our oline and qb. we just have so many holes and depth problems, they all cant be addressed in one offseason.

I was referring to just McNabb and Brown. I'm quite aware they're upgrades for this season, and maybe for the next 3 seasons. However, after they leave or are rendered ineffective down the road, do we still feel the effect of these "phantom" upgrades. Nope. When a player leaves the team, any residual effect is minimal. Brown and McNabb fade away, leaving only those young guys, who I know will be here in the future.

How the hell did you even think I mean the entire aggregate of offensive additions, I cannot fathom. However, it's quite clear you're like an alcoholic. Addicted to the short-term "escape" from the hard reality. If not earlier, 3 years from now, you'll be wondering why the hell is Nate Allen with the Sheagles and is Pro Bowl S while we're still trying to find the next QB of the future. Allen, or anyone else we could have taken with the 2nd rounder year, could be the "cost" of obtaining McNabb and only having a QB upgrade for 3 season.

I still cannot fathom why the hell you brought the rest of them when I was just referring to McNabb and Brown as not worth the cost. Is Jared Veldheer that repugnant to you? Oakland runs a ZBS and he's already seeing action.

[freddyg12]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

I think I heard yesterday going into yesterday's game we ranked 17th in the NFL with 30 missed tackles, Titans were #1 with 50

When Rocky whiffed on that first drive trying to tackle Jacobs...I had a bad feeling. It was so frustrating to see that performance yesterday almost exactly a year after a game (against the same Giants) that symbolized years of franchise ineptitude, only to see us put up such a sad effort once again. I'd like to think we can't get lower than that, but I thought the same thing in 2009

That sounds about right. Some of the missed tackles have been huge, maybe most of them for that matter, leading to big plays. We got used to being such a fundamentally sound defense for the most part under GW & Blache, that to see such poor tackling now makes it seem much worse.

I agree that it just looked like the effort wasn't there in the beginning, even Fletcher didn't seem himself.

[SirClintonPortis]

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

Right. So all we have to do is get Orakpo, Haynesworth, Golston, and Carter back up at the front four, with McIntosh, Fletcher, and Blades or Wilson at linebacker -- then we can sit back and watch the magical defensive turn-around.

This team just isn't as good as you think it is.

Considering that Orakpo was stuffed into a 4-3 OLB role last year, Landry sucked major balls, and that Blache held them back in 1000 way--one of them being making Landry sucking major balls--, that line and D would actually be performing better than what they did in 2009. Seriously, there has to be someone from a D guru tree that knows how to run a 4-3 better than Blache.

It seems like you're assuming Blache's philosophy is the end-all be-all of 4-3 philosophies.

And Buffalo started magically playing better once they scrapped the 3-4. Instead of coughing up 30+ points every week, they started having games in which they gave up less than 20 points, although they seem to struggle against elite playmakers.

[MTK]

I do think at this point you have to seriously question the talent on the defense. Rak is the only long term keeper in the front 7. Fletcher can still play so for a short term option he's a keeper as well. Other than that the talent and depth is paper thin.

We've run plenty of 4-3 looks this year and still manage to stink up the joint, so I think the scheme argument has to take a backseat to the talent argument.

[over the mountain]

Originally Posted by SirClintonPortis

I was referring to just McNabb and Brown. I'm quite aware they're upgrades for this season, and maybe for the next 3 seasons. However, after they leave or are rendered ineffective down the road, do we still feel the effect of these "phantom" upgrades. Nope. When a player leaves the team, any residual effect is minimal. Brown and McNabb fade away, leaving only those young guys, who I know will be here in the future.

How the hell did you even think I mean the entire aggregate of offensive additions, I cannot fathom. However, it's quite clear you're like an alcoholic. Addicted to the short-term "escape" from the hard reality. If not earlier, 3 years from now, you'll be wondering why the hell is Nate Allen with the Sheagles and is Pro Bowl S while we're still trying to find the next QB of the future. Allen, or anyone else we could have taken with the 2nd rounder year, could be the "cost" of obtaining McNabb and only having a QB upgrade for 3 season.

I still cannot fathom why the hell you brought the rest of them when I was just referring to McNabb and Brown as not worth the cost. Is Jared Veldheer that repugnant to you? Oakland runs a ZBS and he's already seeing action.

my bad, i didnt know i wasnt allowed to mention the long term young additions our FO did this past offseason in response to your statements that we only added old temporary bandaids.

i dont think one 2nd round pick is going to make or break the 2013 skins. the benefit and upgrade of mcnabb over campbell is worth a 2nd rounder to me, especially if you expect to compete in 2011 and 2012. i expect this team to be very competitive no later than 2012.

to answer your other question; a jason campbell behind this years O line plus veldheer would repugnate me this year and for years to come.

[SolidSnake84]

Campbell hasn't changed any in Oakland. I just think right now he has a better supporting cast at the moment than we do. It was just earlier this year that Campbell was stinking up the place and was benched. And he had plenty of jamarcus russell like days too.

He is just like he was here, passable one day, and horrible the next. The difference is is that Oakland has playmakers, and their defense can keep them in games, even with JC at QB...

[Coff]

Originally Posted by Mattyk

I do think at this point you have to seriously question the talent on the defense. Rak is the only long term keeper in the front 7. Fletcher can still play so for a short term option he's a keeper as well. Other than that the talent and depth is paper thin.

We've run plenty of 4-3 looks this year and still manage to stink up the joint, so I think the scheme argument has to take a backseat to the talent argument.

Sure, the talent isn't where we'd want it to be. Again though, the drop-off from last year can't be explained through the talent alone. The point is, that there needs to be a thorough examination of both coaching and players on the defensive level.

[SirClintonPortis]

Originally Posted by over the mountain

my bad, i didnt know i wasnt allowed to mention the long term young additions our FO did this past offseason in response to your statements that we only added old temporary bandaids.

i dont think one 2nd round pick is going to make or break the 2013 skins. the benefit and upgrade of mcnabb over campbell is worth a 2nd rounder to me, especially if you expect to compete in 2011 and 2012. i expect this team to be very competitive no later than 2012.

to answer your other question; a jason campbell behind this years O line plus veldheer would repugnate me this year and for years to come.

The young ones didn't have a cost except for the roster spot, did they? So why the hell did you bring them up when I was only talking about McNabb and Brown, aka the TRADES.

I'm sorry if you can't understand the simple concept that McNabb and Brown will be providing 0 utility to this team in three years while a whole host of players from the second round this year's draft will be to their respective teams long afterwards(5-10 years).

A rebuild means a complete forgoing of the present and imminent future for continued success in the longer term. McNabb will only benefit the team in the near future, but his supporting cast will not be improved sufficiently to get us to the Super Bowl, which is the only reasonable justification of trading away picks for a short-term solution. The FO did not commit to a true rebuild. They tried to win now and reload, and they are now accomplishing neither. McNabb will be 37 by the time you expect the O to "explode", and to expect him to be injury-free by then is dreaming at its finest.

Also, I support the move for trading Campbell. However, do realize that we could have coaxed even more out of Oakland if McNabb did not come here because there would be no "we're going to get rid him anyway" bargaining chip for Al Davis to play.

I want a QB who's either a young one with a really high ceiling or a damn good one in his prime, not a aging player who is likely going to retire in three years.

I'm not sure what made you think I wanted to keep JC. I have repeatedly stated that bombing this season with Rex was the way to go on here. We need to obtain players who are going to last a long time, and for the moment, practically only those types of players. Having a high draft position and a full load of high-round picks is the best way to go about that.
JC is 29 and too old for that. Besides, it's not like he was a lock to re-sign here.

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by SirClintonPortis

The young ones didn't have a cost except for the roster spot, did they? So why the hell did you bring them up when I was only talking about McNabb and Brown, aka the TRADES.

Not sure you really made that clear from the get go

I'm sorry if you can't understand the simple concept that McNabb and Brown will be providing 0 utility to this team in three years while a whole host of players from the second round this year's draft will be to their respective teams long afterwards(5-10 years).

Debatable

A rebuild means a complete forgoing of the present and imminent future for continued success in the longer term. McNabb will only benefit the team in the near future, but his supporting cast will not be improved sufficiently to get us to the Super Bowl, which is the only reasonable justification of trading away picks for a short-term solution. The FO did not commit to a true rebuild. They tried to win now and reload, and they are now accomplishing neither. McNabb will be 37 by the time you expect the O to "explode", and to expect him to be injury-free by then is dreaming at its finest.

Redskins fans would never ever ever accept a complete dismantling and rebuild.

Also, I support the move for trading Campbell. However, do realize that we could have coaxed even more out of Oakland if McNabb did not come here because there would be no "we're going to get rid him anyway" bargaining chip for Al Davis to play.

Yeah well we actually got more for Campbell than people (including Oakland) were even offering before we got McNabb. No one wanted McNabb. Maybe it's because we were trying to move him for 18 months, but McNabb had little to nothing to do with it.

[over the mountain]

scp - i wasnt talking to you in my first post. you're the one who qouted me and said all the upgrades i listed were temporary. i wasnt talking directly to you so i dont understand how you can qoute me then continue to take this lil petty nick pick shots at me, inferring im stupid and analogizing me to an alcoholic.

you started qouting me, not the other way around. if you were talking just about mcnabb and brown, great. my original post was about the offseason additions as a whole without reference to you or any post you made in this thread. get off dez nutz son.

[Ruhskins]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Redskins fans would never ever ever accept a complete dismantling and rebuild.

This is unfortunate, but correct.

[sdskinsfan2001]

Its not the coaching, the team has no talent and they are old. Orakpo, T. Williams and Landry are the only premier players. The rest of the O-Line is terrible and there is no depth. Same with the D-Line. Till you get good in the trenches it doesnt matter who your coach is. He is a hall of fame coach and his son led the best offense in the league last year, they did not all of a sudden turn into bad coaches. O-Lineman early in the draft, a change of pace tail back in the later rounds and find a tall receiver somewhere so we can have some size. Too many people act like we were Super Bowl favorites this year.

[Longtimefan]

This team needs a youth movement. The oldest roster in the league has demonstrated it can't win at least eight games. Talent first, coaches second.

[Defensewins]

Gentlemen,
Bottom line...talent or coaching..chicken or the egg...or both.
I can not help but feel that if we had brought in a real stud defensive coordinator like a GWilliams or a Rex Ryan in last summer instead of Hasslets we would not be LAST in the NFL in defense ranking. You agree?
As you can tell from the day they announced his hiring, I have never been a Hasslett fan.
We are a premiere franchise in the NFL, we can do better than Hasslett.
Just saying.