Who Stays And Who Goes? Perceptions Changing?

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

I wonder though what will happen when Portis and more importantly Cooley return. How will Lewis or whoever work Cooley back in and still develop guys like Davis?

I think the organization will do everything in it's power to get rid of Portis, if not he'll play a more limited role next year. Less carries, more 3rd down packages. But no more marquee status or workload for Portis. Also, I think there's more upside to keeping Cooley at this point. I have to believe that Sherm Lewis wants as many weapons as possible next year. We'll experiment with the double TE set next season and go from there.

[12thMan]

Just to reiterate my point about Portis, if we can keep him in the 12-15 carry range, I think we could rejuvenate his career.

[sportscurmudgeon]

Originally Posted by SFREDSKIN

I'll say it again, we have to keep Campbell and rebuild the OL to make him successful. Say goodbye to Randy Thomas, Samuels (when he retires) Betts, Daniels, Griffin, Randle-El, Smoot, Suisham, Trade Landry for a 1st round pick.

NO way on this planet you get a 1st round pick for Landry. Would you settle for a third and a conditional fifth in the next year? If not, you aren't going to move Landry - - and if he gives up 2 TDs in a game as egregiously as he did yesterday against the Saints one more time this season, you won't get an offer as high as that.


Also disagree with ditching Betts. I'd cut Portis in a heartbeat. I would have Betts come to camp to compete for a job.

[sportscurmudgeon]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

A new coach is definitely going to mean significant changes, especially at QB. I'm almost starting to wish we could just keep Zorn and make Sherman Lewis the full-time OC/play-caller, build up the OL, keep JC, and go from there.

From your lips to Danny Boy's ears, Matty...

[mike340]

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

A new coach is definitely going to mean significant changes, especially at QB. I'm almost starting to wish we could just keep Zorn and make Sherman Lewis the full-time OC/play-caller, build up the OL, keep JC, and go from there.

I agree. Four weeks ago I wanted to ditch JC so badly. One of the things I kept on harping about was he couldn't throw a touch pass. Yesterday he threw several! In addition it seems he's getting rid of the ball faster. I don't think it's a coincidence that Zorn has more time to work with the QB and we're seeing dramatic improvement in JC's play.

Things are starting to gel. Look at the way they've played in the last four weeks against teams that are a combined 36-12! I think they deserved to win 3 of the 4. Now we have to see what they do in the last 4 games. If they play good football I wouldn't like to shake it up too much. I'm also not so bothered the Sherm x 2 situation. If it works, it works. If it keeps the players from lobbying with the coaches this may be a good thing.

In addition, I'm sure that Zorn doesn't mind (so much) having a reduced role in play-calling if the team is winning.

In summary, Zorn's responsibilities seem to be working with and motivating the team, as well as working with JC. This seems to be functioning very well.

In addition, the playcalling seems to be very good now, so that's also a big improvement.

Lastly, now that the receivers from last year are starting to work out, it appears that the draft wasn't so bad after all, except in terms of our offensive line. So we're not so far off from being a good team. But, if we look to next year, we should be able to get some OL help.

As to what else could be improved, I have to think that the DBs can (and must) practice catching the football. I think back to where they dropped 2 patty-cake interceptions. In addition, they must do something about the field goals. Whether it's teaching Suisham what to do when it's an important kick (he seemed to be rushing yesterday when setting up for the winning field goal) or getting someone else I don't care. And Fletch needs to explain the facts of football life to Landry. I mean, yesterday in regulation it was
Washington 30
Landry 14
Referees 7
New Orleans 9

It's absolutely amazing that this group of "dregs" from the beginning of the season outplayed a 12-0 team that was NOT off its game.

[SmootSmack]

Some continuity would be nice and I'm sure ownership would prefer to succeed with the current group. But if they do decide to stick with Zorn I'd almost rather they give him an extension rather than go through another year next year of lame duck status. Still, I don't see overall what value Zorn brings to the team right now. I think he goes. Lewis could stay but fall back into the actual consulting role.

[sportscurmudgeon]

Originally Posted by 12thMan

I think the organization will do everything in it's power to get rid of Portis, if not he'll play a more limited role next year. Less carries, more 3rd down packages. But no more marquee status or workload for Portis. Also, I think there's more upside to keeping Cooley at this point. I have to believe that Sherm Lewis wants as many weapons as possible next year. We'll experiment with the double TE set next season and go from there.

I believe the organization owes Portis something in the range of another $10million in guaranteed/deferred money. If so, I don't think they will do "everything in its power" to dump him...

[12thMan]

I was going to start a separate thread, but it seems to fit neatly within this discussion. Mods, if you feel otherwise give it it's on title and maybe do a poll.


Yesterday the New Orleans Saints were 23 yards and a couple of away feet from losing their first game of the season. For Saints fans, it was a huge sigh of relief knowing they had just escaped their biggest scare of going undefeated. For Redskins fans, well, it was par for the course in what has turned out to be a roller coaster season filled with twists and turns, ups and downs, what ifs and almosts.

The loss to the Saints pretty much settled two matters: The Redskins won’t have a winning record this year and they won’t be going to the playoffs. Further, this team has proven they can thrive offensively without one Clinton Portis churning out three yards per carry. What is still up in the air, however, is the fate of head coach Jim Zorn and, perhaps, by extension Jason Campbell’s future with the franchise. During the first half of the season you could ask just about anyone, myself included, with nominal knowledge of the NFL and they would have told you that Jim Zorn deserved to be fired – and right on the spot. Sentiment on whether or not to fire Zorn is starting to swing in the other direction, in no small part because of Jason Campbell’s new found steadiness and the play calling of Sherm Lewis. Over the past four weeks, I’ve planted my feet firmly in the Jim Zorn stays camp. This thread is not so much me making my case again, although I am, as I am hoping that this like many other fan rants, will make its way back to Dan Snyder.

In other words, this is my banner on the side of the metro bus!

To be fair, Jim Zorn has his short comings. No one’s denying that. Zorn has been erratic in the red zone, poor clock management, and indecisiveness in the waning minutes when the game is close are among the chief reasons many have concluded he was in over his head. But then again, we’ve watched the venerable Bill Belichick blow fourth down calls in consecutive weeks. And if memory serves me correctly, Sean Payton had zero timeouts with the Redskins leading in the fourth quarter about to put the game away. Had the shoe been on the other foot, the fire Jim Zorn chants would have been in full force again today. The difference in perception and giving one coach a pass while calling for the other’s head seems to be that little thing called winning.

As Mike Wise rightly pointed out in his WaPo column, the Redskins have some tough choices to make during the offseason. What to do with the aforementioned Clinton Portis is one of them. And not just whether or not Portis stays or goes, but what should his role be should he stay. It’s clear that you don’t need a marquee running back to win in this league anymore. But the more I watch this group of players compete until the final snap of each game, the more I question the logic of bringing in a new head coach and going for a complete overhaul. For one, regardless of whom they bring in, the make-up of the coaching staff will change dramatically. With that comes a new coaching philosophy and offensive system and time to adjust. You would also have to think that Sherm Lewis, who is arguably central to the offense’s turnaround, would likely be gone as well. From where I sit Jim Zorn, Sherm Lewis, and Jason Campbell destinies seemed to be tied together for at least another year with this organization, if not longer.

So Mr. Snyder while you’ve learned that fans can and will continue to be fickle, this may the time for you to be steady and take your lumps. Ignore the noise and masses and maybe your own natural inclination to win and do something. Bring back Jim Zorn for another year.

[SmootSmack]

Well I think this is a fine example of why Snyder shouldn't listen to the fans. One week we all want Campbell and Zorn gone right away the next we want them re-signed for life. But that's what fans do. That's what Snyder I'm sure did when all he was was a fan. Snyder needs to do what's best for the team long-term, not make the popular decision of the moment. Is keeping Zorn one more year good for the long-term? Is holding on to Campbell another year good for the long-term? Those aren't decisions that should be left to the emotions of the fans, in my opinion.

[mlmdub130]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Well I think this is a fine example of why Snyder shouldn't listen to the fans. One week we all want Campbell and Zorn gone right away the next we want them re-signed for life. But that's what fans do. That's what Snyder I'm sure did when all he was was a fan. Snyder needs to do what's best for the team long-term, not make the popular decision of the moment. Is keeping Zorn one more year good for the long-term? Is holding on to Campbell another year good for the long-term? Those aren't decisions that should be left to the emotions of the fans, in my opinion.

only problem is he has never done that, he has always gone for the quick fix, hopefully he can learn from his mistakes

[Beemnseven]

Originally Posted by joethiesmanfan

Let's entertain that:

Maybe Fred Davis is better than Cooley? pro bowler

Maybe Jones is better than Samuels? pro bowler

Maybe Davis is better than Thomas and Rhinehart? pro bowler

etc. etc.

If that is the case, then Vinny is the best GM in the league.

Maybe the term "Pro Bowler" is the most useless, overrated term that in no way accurately represents what a player's value really is? Definitely.

[Trample the Elderly]

Originally Posted by davy

Vinny Cerrato seems to get a lot of stick on virtually every thread yet at the same time most seem to agree we have a lot of good young players to look to the future with.

I had a quick look through the roster for guys that Cerrato has brought in during his 2 years in charge and have made a significant contribution already or promise to in the near future.

Kevin Barnes
Fred Davis
Quinton Ganther
DeAngelo Hall
Albert Haynesworth
Chris Horton
Jeremy Jarmon
Levi Jones
Malcolm Kelly
Marko Mitchell
Brian Orakpo
Chad Rinehart
Hunter Smith
Devin Thomas
Justin Tryon
Mike Williams

That's not a bad group in my opinion.

Does he get unfair stick?

Don't forget Jim Zorn.

[SFREDSKIN]

Originally Posted by sportscurmudgeon

NO way on this planet you get a 1st round pick for Landry. Would you settle for a third and a conditional fifth in the next year? If not, you aren't going to move Landry - - and if he gives up 2 TDs in a game as egregiously as he did yesterday against the Saints one more time this season, you won't get an offer as high as that.


Also disagree with ditching Betts. I'd cut Portis in a heartbeat. I would have Betts come to camp to compete for a job.

Betts is 30 or going to be and is coming back from a serious knee injury, what makes you think he will be productive next year? If we can't get another RB in the draft then I would consider bringing him back. As for Landry there is no doubt the guy can play, it's his attitude that pisses me off. I can guarantee it that if he has a few good games that we can get a 1st rounder for him, if not, then don't trade him.

[Chico23231]

I really dont see how you hold on to Zorn or Vinny at this point..the collaspe end of last season and 3-9 this season? Vinny has had his 10 years...1. We need to hire a GM 2. Snyder needs to keep from making football decisions...When it comes down to long term, I think this the best thing for the team at this point. Just because we have played better the last 3 games hasnt change my perception of what this team is: 3-9 and long out of the playoff race.

[12thMan]

Originally Posted by Chico23231

I really dont see how you hold on to Zorn or Vinny at this point..the collaspe end of last season and 3-9 this season? Vinny has had his 10 years...1. We need to hire a GM 2. Snyder needs to keep from making football decisions...When it comes down to long term, I think this the best thing for the team at this point. Just because we have played better the last 3 games hasnt change my perception of what this team is: 3-9 and long out of the playoff race.

I think you can make a very good case for keeping Zorn. And if you bring in some new coach, are you supposing that coach will take this team and go 10-6 or 11-5 or the playoffs even?

As far as the collapse, you ask five different people and you'll get five different answers.