Monk vs. Irvin

Redskins8588 · 01-12-2005, 02:42 AM

When people are elected into the HOF I think that stats and how they effected the game should be taken into consideration.

Now some may wonder how Art Monk changed the game of football. It can be clearly seen that he was a prototype WR of todays bigger and stronger recievers. I mean look at Art Monks Height, 6'3" and Weight, 210 lbs. Now look at the top recievers in the leage today, Terrel Owens - Height - 6'3', Weight - 226lbs. Randy Moss - Height 6'4" Weight - 210.

I guess what I am trying to say is that Art Monk was a reciever before his time. I know that Owens and Moss will probably exceed Monks career but at the time that Art Monk played not every Wide out was built like him. Now just about every reciever in the leauge is almost molded like him. IMO Art Monk not only was a Redskin great, he also helped the progression of the game and the Wide Reciver position

jhold4th · 01-12-2005, 04:28 AM

Monk amd Irvin are universes apart.

Art- A model of consistency. Never hyped, pouty, showy. Only time I ever saw emotion out of him was the 83 reg season game against the raiders where he and Lester Hayes were grabbing each others face mask after the whistle. Seems mild, but Art was pissed.
Led by example.

Irvin-Flashy, showy, mouthy arrogant. Everytime he dropped a pass he looked for the ref and pointed at the defender. Fiery leader, always in someones face on the sideline.

Both would catch that much needed 3rd and 8 pass.

I think if you combine the 2, you come up with Hines Ward

MTK · 01-12-2005, 10:41 AM

I have a feeling Irvin will get in before Monk and here's why. I love Monk as much as anyone, but keep an open mind here.

Take a look at their career stats, take a close look at the 'Seasons among the league's top 10':

Irvin

Monk

Here's my quick summary of some of the key stats:

1000 yard seasons: Monk (5), Irvin (7)
Season high yardage: Monk (1372), Irvin (1603)
Seasons over 1200 yards: Monk (2), Irvin (5)
Seasons with at least 6 TD catches: Monk (5), Irvin (6)

Monk's career numbers are much better, but he also played 4 more seasons than Irvin.

Monk will get in the Hall eventually in my opinion, but he isn't the kind of WR that blows the hall voters away and when you look at his stats there isn't much there to better his case.

If you take a straight average of all his stats to his 16 year career, his average season works out to be 59 catches, 795 yards and 4 TD's.

Irvin in comparison over his 12 years averages out to 63 catches, 992 yards and 5 TD's per season.

Monk was a very solid WR for a long period of time, Irvin was a very good WR for a shorter amount of time.

I know they played in different eras and there's always the intangibles to account for, but just looking at the numbers and the way they break down, I won't be the least bit surprised if Irvin gets in before Monk.

Beemnseven · 01-12-2005, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

I have a feeling Irvin will get in before Monk and here's why. I love Monk as much as anyone, but keep an open mind here.

Take a look at their career stats, take a close look at the 'Seasons among the league's top 10':

Irvin

Monk

Here's my quick summary of some of the key stats:

1000 yard seasons: Monk (5), Irvin (7)
Season high yardage: Monk (1372), Irvin (1603)
Seasons over 1200 yards: Monk (2), Irvin (5)
Seasons with at least 6 TD catches: Monk (5), Irvin (6)

Monk's career numbers are much better, but he also played 4 more seasons than Irvin.

Monk will get in the Hall eventually in my opinion, but he isn't the kind of WR that blows the hall voters away and when you look at his stats there isn't much there to better his case.

If you take a straight average of all his stats to his 16 year career, his average season works out to be 59 catches, 795 yards and 4 TD's.

Irvin in comparison over his 12 years averages out to 63 catches, 992 yards and 5 TD's per season.

Monk was a very solid WR for a long period of time, Irvin was a very good WR for a shorter amount of time.

I know they played in different eras and there's always the intangibles to account for, but just looking at the numbers and the way they break down, I won't be the least bit surprised if Irvin gets in before Monk.

Excellent points, Matty. There's a very simple explanation I've heard among voters and members of the media as to Monk's absence from the Hall: He didn't "stand out". Peter King often says that when the Giants played the Skins, their first concerns were the running game, and Gary Clark. For that reason, and probably because he hates the Skins in general, King has said he will never vote for Art Monk.

Those averages for a season over his career are very telling. Monk was dependable and solid, but he wasn't exactly a game-breaker. That was Gary Clark. One other little tidbit, Monk never caught a touchdown pass in a Super Bowl. The fact that Monk didn't stand out in big games probably doesn't help his case either. My feeling is that he'll get in someday, but he's simply not a "shoe-in" for the HoF.

BDBohnzie · 01-12-2005, 12:20 PM

listening to John Thompson yesterday on 980, he brought up a good point (which i couldn't believe either...)

more and more, people are choosing value over talent. guys like TO, Moss, Irvin are in the headlines because of their antics and their value to the media to create those headlines...Irvin's nickname is the Playmaker.

on the flip side, back in Monk's day, players did what they had to do in order for the team to succeed. Monk has no value to the media because he didn't provide headlines for them to thrive off of.

in this day and age of 24/7 media, unless you're making the headlines, you tend to be forgotten...and unfortunately, those in the past are being compared to those now...

TheMalcolmConnection · 01-12-2005, 12:27 PM

Unfortunately, everyone is right...

Sometimes it takes being a bit flambuoyant to make people remember you, even though people tend to remember the negative.

sportscurmudgeon is completely right when he says that people only focus on the negative. I mean when you think about people over the years, sports and not, most people tend to remember the bad ones versus the good ones.

It is true that people will be like, "Yeah, Irvin was loud and obnoxious." but no one, besides Redskins faithful, will ever remember Art Monk because he was a team guy and a class act.

sportscurmudgeon · 01-12-2005, 03:56 PM

Someone said that MOnk had more catches and yardage than Swann and Stallworth COMBINED. Can that be right?

I know that Monk caught about 950 passes but I would have guessed that both Swann and Stallworth had 600 - 700...

SmootSmack · 01-12-2005, 05:14 PM

That is indeed right

Stallworth-537 receptions, 8.723 yards, 63 TDs
Lynn-336 receptions, 5.462 yards, 51 TDs
Total-873 receptions, 14,185 yards, 114 TDs

Monk-940 receptions, 12,721 yards, 68 TDs

I just find it hard to believe that the Redskins were (with the possible exception of the Niners) the best team in football from 1982-1992 and yet only John Riggins and Joe Gibbs are in the Hall from that era. Granted, Darrell Green will make it and perhaps Gary Clark. But no one else?!

TheMalcolmConnection · 01-12-2005, 05:22 PM

Those are some impressive stats. It's a total shame.

CRT3 · 01-12-2005, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mattyk72

1000 yard seasons: Monk (5), Irvin (7)
Season high yardage: Monk (1372), Irvin (1603)
Seasons over 1200 yards: Monk (2), Irvin (5)
Seasons with at least 6 TD catches: Monk (5), Irvin (6)

Monk's career numbers are much better, but he also played 4 more seasons than Irvin.

If you take a straight average of all his stats to his 16 year career, his average season works out to be 59 catches, 795 yards and 4 TD's.

Irvin in comparison over his 12 years averages out to 63 catches, 992 yards and 5 TD's per season.

Monks Stats based on his 1st 12 years. This is a even comparison and pulls out the last 4 years.

66.75 catches per year
915 yards per season
5 TD Per Season

Considering Monk was the slot reciever and recieved most of his passes over the middle and on quick out patterns that is pretty impressive. He also played in a ton of 3 reciever sets.

If you actually think Irvin will get into the HOF then do us all a favor and go buy a retro Irvin jersey and be a Cowgirls fan. There is one thing we always do as Redskin fans in Boo the Cowboys, No excuses allowed.

BIGREDSKINFAN63 · 01-12-2005, 07:55 PM

marino,and young are shoe ins.monk deserves it before 8 ball irvin does.look how long it took lynn swann to get in.

CRT3 · 01-12-2005, 08:30 PM

Young as a shoe in 1st time on the ballot won't happen.

Went to the USFL LA Express because of money
Failed in Tampa and wound up as Montana back up for a number of years
So from the time he came out of college till he finally started due to Montana being forced out because of injuries it was 8 years ('84-'91)
Started thru the '98 season, so that would make it 7 years of starts and not all complete seasons. In fact 2 of the 7 years he had 11 and 12 starts each year. So to call him a HOF with 1 superbowl is pretty much a travesty.

davy · 01-12-2005, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beemnseven

One other little tidbit, Monk never caught a touchdown pass in a Super Bowl.

Monk did catch a touchdown pass against the Bills in Super Bowl 26, unfortunately the guy in the replay booth was too dumb to see it.

Bozzy · 01-12-2005, 11:43 PM

Art Monk isn't getting because he's too quiet about it. He needs to make some noise. It's a shame. Michael Irvin is a terrible human being, and he'll make it on the first ballot. Why? He's a Dallas Cowboy. America's Team^TM!

SmootSmack · 01-12-2005, 11:54 PM

I went to the Wizards game tonight and afterward, as I was walking back to the Metro, I saw Art Monk on the corner of 9th and G streets soliciting a tranny prostitute and paying her with crack while his boys were beating down a homeless man for some weed....there, now he's a shoo-in for the Hall

01-12-2005, 02:42 AM	#16
Redskins8588 Playmaker Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Ridgway, PA Age: 46 Posts: 2,519	When people are elected into the HOF I think that stats and how they effected the game should be taken into consideration. Now some may wonder how Art Monk changed the game of football. It can be clearly seen that he was a prototype WR of todays bigger and stronger recievers. I mean look at Art Monks Height, 6'3" and Weight, 210 lbs. Now look at the top recievers in the leage today, Terrel Owens - Height - 6'3', Weight - 226lbs. Randy Moss - Height 6'4" Weight - 210. I guess what I am trying to say is that Art Monk was a reciever before his time. I know that Owens and Moss will probably exceed Monks career but at the time that Art Monk played not every Wide out was built like him. Now just about every reciever in the leauge is almost molded like him. IMO Art Monk not only was a Redskin great, he also helped the progression of the game and the Wide Reciver position __________________ "I am the best at what I do, and what I do isn't very nice" - Sean Taylor

01-12-2005, 12:20 PM	#20
BDBohnzie Playmaker Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Frederick, MD Age: 45 Posts: 4,628	listening to John Thompson yesterday on 980, he brought up a good point (which i couldn't believe either...) more and more, people are choosing value over talent. guys like TO, Moss, Irvin are in the headlines because of their antics and their value to the media to create those headlines...Irvin's nickname is the Playmaker. on the flip side, back in Monk's day, players did what they had to do in order for the team to succeed. Monk has no value to the media because he didn't provide headlines for them to thrive off of. in this day and age of 24/7 media, unless you're making the headlines, you tend to be forgotten...and unfortunately, those in the past are being compared to those now... __________________ Bad Things man, I mean bad things... “WE TOOK HIM IN THE SIXTH ROUND SO WE'RE NOT SMART EITHER.” - Shanny on what the Skins saw in Alfred Morris

01-12-2005, 12:27 PM	#21
TheMalcolmConnection I like big (_\|_)s. Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Lexington, Virginia Age: 43 Posts: 19,225	Unfortunately, everyone is right... Sometimes it takes being a bit flambuoyant to make people remember you, even though people tend to remember the negative. sportscurmudgeon is completely right when he says that people only focus on the negative. I mean when you think about people over the years, sports and not, most people tend to remember the bad ones versus the good ones. It is true that people will be like, "Yeah, Irvin was loud and obnoxious." but no one, besides Redskins faithful, will ever remember Art Monk because he was a team guy and a class act. __________________ Regret nothing. At one time it was exactly what you wanted.

01-12-2005, 03:56 PM	#22
sportscurmudgeon Playmaker Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 3,159	Someone said that MOnk had more catches and yardage than Swann and Stallworth COMBINED. Can that be right? I know that Monk caught about 950 passes but I would have guessed that both Swann and Stallworth had 600 - 700... __________________ The Sports Curmudgeon www.sportscurmudgeon.com But don't get me wrong, I love sports...

01-12-2005, 05:14 PM	#23
SmootSmack Uncle Phil Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 45,256	That is indeed right Stallworth-537 receptions, 8.723 yards, 63 TDs Lynn-336 receptions, 5.462 yards, 51 TDs Total-873 receptions, 14,185 yards, 114 TDs Monk-940 receptions, 12,721 yards, 68 TDs I just find it hard to believe that the Redskins were (with the possible exception of the Niners) the best team in football from 1982-1992 and yet only John Riggins and Joe Gibbs are in the Hall from that era. Granted, Darrell Green will make it and perhaps Gary Clark. But no one else?! __________________ You're So Vain...You Probably Think This Sig Is About You

01-12-2005, 04:28 AM	#17
jhold4th Camp Scrub Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Omaha Age: 60 Posts: 57	Monk amd Irvin are universes apart. Art- A model of consistency. Never hyped, pouty, showy. Only time I ever saw emotion out of him was the 83 reg season game against the raiders where he and Lester Hayes were grabbing each others face mask after the whistle. Seems mild, but Art was pissed. Led by example. Irvin-Flashy, showy, mouthy arrogant. Everytime he dropped a pass he looked for the ref and pointed at the defender. Fiery leader, always in someones face on the sideline. Both would catch that much needed 3rd and 8 pass. I think if you combine the 2, you come up with Hines Ward

01-12-2005, 10:41 AM	#18
MTK \m/ Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: NY Age: 52 Posts: 99,462	I have a feeling Irvin will get in before Monk and here's why. I love Monk as much as anyone, but keep an open mind here. Take a look at their career stats, take a close look at the 'Seasons among the league's top 10': Irvin Monk Here's my quick summary of some of the key stats: 1000 yard seasons: Monk (5), Irvin (7) Season high yardage: Monk (1372), Irvin (1603) Seasons over 1200 yards: Monk (2), Irvin (5) Seasons with at least 6 TD catches: Monk (5), Irvin (6) Monk's career numbers are much better, but he also played 4 more seasons than Irvin. Monk will get in the Hall eventually in my opinion, but he isn't the kind of WR that blows the hall voters away and when you look at his stats there isn't much there to better his case. If you take a straight average of all his stats to his 16 year career, his average season works out to be 59 catches, 795 yards and 4 TD's. Irvin in comparison over his 12 years averages out to 63 catches, 992 yards and 5 TD's per season. Monk was a very solid WR for a long period of time, Irvin was a very good WR for a shorter amount of time. I know they played in different eras and there's always the intangibles to account for, but just looking at the numbers and the way they break down, I won't be the least bit surprised if Irvin gets in before Monk.

01-12-2005, 05:22 PM	#24
TheMalcolmConnection I like big (_\|_)s. Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Lexington, Virginia Age: 43 Posts: 19,225	Those are some impressive stats. It's a total shame. __________________ Regret nothing. At one time it was exactly what you wanted.

01-12-2005, 07:55 PM	#26
BIGREDSKINFAN63 Special Teams Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: bassett-va Age: 61 Posts: 289	marino,and young are shoe ins.monk deserves it before 8 ball irvin does.look how long it took lynn swann to get in. __________________ "7 days without the redskins, makes one weak!!!"

01-12-2005, 08:30 PM	#27
CRT3 Impact Rookie Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Rockville Age: 61 Posts: 795	Young as a shoe in 1st time on the ballot won't happen. Went to the USFL LA Express because of money Failed in Tampa and wound up as Montana back up for a number of years So from the time he came out of college till he finally started due to Montana being forced out because of injuries it was 8 years ('84-'91) Started thru the '98 season, so that would make it 7 years of starts and not all complete seasons. In fact 2 of the 7 years he had 11 and 12 starts each year. So to call him a HOF with 1 superbowl is pretty much a travesty.

01-12-2005, 11:43 PM	#29
Bozzy The Starter Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Columbia, MD Age: 44 Posts: 1,034	Art Monk isn't getting because he's too quiet about it. He needs to make some noise. It's a shame. Michael Irvin is a terrible human being, and he'll make it on the first ballot. Why? He's a Dallas Cowboy. America's Team^TM!

01-12-2005, 11:54 PM	#30
SmootSmack Uncle Phil Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 45,256	I went to the Wizards game tonight and afterward, as I was walking back to the Metro, I saw Art Monk on the corner of 9th and G streets soliciting a tranny prostitute and paying her with crack while his boys were beating down a homeless man for some weed....there, now he's a shoo-in for the Hall __________________ You're So Vain...You Probably Think This Sig Is About You

Monk vs. Irvin

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