The Real Problem of the Redskins ...

[firstdown]

This is from the article. "Bill Cowher refused to work for Snyder for the same reason."
So when did Snyder interview Bill Cowher or was this just made up? Even if it is true Cowher has refused to coach any team until 2010 so the statement is still stupid.

[The Goat]

There's a forest through the trees view that is being ignored IMHO. It is debatable whether Snyder is the last say on GM duties i.e. whether he is truly responsible for the decade+ of mediocrity despite spending crazy money. As fans we can go rounds on this point from here to kingdom come and probably never agree to disagree...

What is nearly incontrovertable at this point in time is that very good coaches do not want to work for Snyder or the Redskins and to me this is what matters most. Spags will be a great coach somewhere, he didn't like what he saw in Snyder and for that Snyder acted like an insecure little child. My best intuition is that beyond Zorn we will not see a guy of character as HC for a very long time to come (even if Danny changed his stupid ways). Snyder deserves it. We don't.

[The Goat]

... also one could rehash the whole GD travesty surrounding Gregg Williams... I've beat that horse dead a few times already and won't repeat my same old blatherings but it is still significant IMO (if for no other reason that Williams is extremely well respected around the league and it's obvious to all but a few he was smeared by Snyder and/or his people). I mean really, does anyone think the great coaches should have any respect for Snyder or want to give him a chance?

[SmootSmack]

Originally Posted by The Goat

There's a forest through the trees view that is being ignored IMHO. It is debatable whether Snyder is the last say on GM duties i.e. whether he is truly responsible for the decade+ of mediocrity despite spending crazy money. As fans we can go rounds on this point from here to kingdom come and probably never agree to disagree...

What is nearly incontrovertable at this point in time is that very good coaches do not want to work for Snyder or the Redskins and to me this is what matters most. Spags will be a great coach somewhere, he didn't like what he saw in Snyder and for that Snyder acted like an insecure little child. My best intuition is that beyond Zorn we will not see a guy of character as HC for a very long time to come (even if Danny changed his stupid ways). Snyder deserves it. We don't.

Spags has already been passed up a couple of times for head coaching jobs this offseason, and he probably will be passed up a few more times.

He may be a good head coach one day, but let's not go crowning him before he's earned anything. As a head coach, he has done nothing, I'll repeat NOTHING, that Zorn hasn't already.

[The Goat]

Originally Posted by SmootSmack

Spags has already been passed up a couple of times for head coaching jobs this offseason, and he probably will be passed up a few more times.

He may be a good head coach one day, but let's not go crowning him before he's earned anything. As a head coach, he has done nothing, I'll repeat NOTHING, that Zorn hasn't already.

good point

[Paintrain]

Originally Posted by The Goat

... also one could rehash the whole GD travesty surrounding Gregg Williams... I've beat that horse dead a few times already and won't repeat my same old blatherings but it is still significant IMO (if for no other reason that Williams is extremely well respected around the league and it's obvious to all but a few he was smeared by Snyder and/or his people). I mean really, does anyone think the great coaches should have any respect for Snyder or want to give him a chance?

What travesty is that? Did the Snyder smear cause him to get fired in Jacksonville also? The legend of GW is greatly exaggerated. He did a nice job statistically a few seasons, but we were never a game changing defense. Never had a lot of sacks, turnovers or defensive TD, things that actually matter on the field rather than in the paper.

[SmootSmack]

I think the original post made some valid points and there are definite mistakes with the Snyder era, but it's hard to truly take it seriously when the summary is Snyder bought the team to be General Manager.

[Hog1]

stop with your truth and logic already!!!

[NM Redskin]

I'm glad these kinds of threads are back, takes some of the heat of Zorn and Campbell, lol.

[Dirtbag59]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

The legend of 'smashmouth football' is a past it's time. The team that has dominiated the NFC East for a decade has been the Eagles, a team that passes no less than 60% of the time. We've got to get away from our past and the 'pound the rock' mentality. The Hogs, Riggo, Joey T, Coach Gibbs are all the past, the present and future is winning through the air. By the way, New England plays in a cold weather area, how did their passing game fare the past few years? They've never been a running team and I think for the most part they did OK the past decade.

While Spurrier was a joke of a head coach, I'd bet as an offensive coordinator he'd be damn successful. Points are scored in the passing game in today's NFL. We've tried to get with the times but we've failed miserably at establishing franchise cornerstones at two positions, QB and #1 WR. Yes the lines are very important, but two teams with terrible OL this season were the Steelers and Cardinals. How did that work out for them? They have however elite QB and a legitimate #1 WR. You can get away with less than elite OL if you are elite at other positions. We're not elite anywhere, merely 'good' at a few spots.

I respectfully disagree. Yes your right the Eagles have dominated our division with a passing game over the past decade. On top of that the Cardinals and the Steelers are in the conference championships despite shaky o-line play. However all three of those teams have the most important asset in football. More important then a good head coach and quality coordinators, hell way more important then the O-line and the D-line combined. And thats elite QB play, if you have an elite QB you can do practically anything on offense. Wide Recievers don't mean anything without a QB, I mean just look at the Cardinals with Josh McCown or Matt Leinart and then again with Kurt Warner. The Lions tried to build with Recievers look how far that got them.

If you're trying to overacheive nothing will get you there faster then a Quarterback with 25+ TD and a 90+ QB Rating . In fact if you don't believe me then check out this article about how unimportant a true #1 reciever actually is. My favorite part being this:

SI.com - Writers - Reuben Frank: Big-time WRs don't win Super Bowls - Thursday January 17, 2008 6:07PM

"Of the last 14 Super Bowl teams, only four had a receiver with 1,200 or more yards -- and three of those teams lost: The 2001 Rams with Torry Holt, 2002 Raiders and Jerry Rice and the 2004 Eagles with Owens. The only exception was last year's Colts, the first team to win a Super Bowl with a big-time wide out since the Rams in 1999."

Now I'm not as into smash mouth football as you might think in fact I make as much fun of smash mouth football as I do air it out football, though it seems to be more of a slant against air it out here on the Warpath as it relates to me. However in building a team I feel that Smash Mouth football will win you more games. Still like any logical person I would like a balanced attack, though with a slight tilt towards the run considering how effective we were during the first half of the season.

Originally Posted by firstdown

Yea we saw that high flying O this year and Snyder stayed with Zorn so your argument does not hold up. Also last year we had several linemen we wanted that were gone by our pick.

That was after the fact. Zorn was originally brought in here to reshape the passing game. In fact in terms of offense it was the only thing he really changed that and maybe a few new formations. So that doesn't really hurt the argument I'm presenting that Snyder is an air-it-out junkie who dreams of a day where the paper reads something to the effect of "Snyder was right as Redskins get it done through the air". Plus if he gets rid of Zorn who is he going to hire? My guess is that keeping Zorn was a combination of a promise he made to Vinny, the fact that no one sexy enough was avaiable to justify firing an 8-8 first year coach, and lastly the possibility that admitting the month + long coaching search was a huge mistake.

As for looking at the lineman before the draft last year. Well to tell you the truth thats my last ray of hope for this front office and I'm holding onto that like my life depends on it. So yes your right they did look at Branden Albert, Chris Willimas, Duane Brown, as well as Sam Baker so I do see that as a plus. Yet the bottom line is they came away with three pass catchers at with three picks in the second round. On top of that they were willing to part with their first round pick to acquire Chad Johnson as well as Anquan Boldin. So I cede the floor to you, but I stand by my point that Snyder's attempt to acquire a passing game have cost this organization dearly. Either way this is fun I haven't had a debate this engaging in a while.

[sportscurmudgeon]

Originally Posted by dmek25

i will never bitch about Snyder. i think we are all in agreement he wants to win. and i would much rather have an owner that spends money, although maybe not the right way, then one who sits back and pretty much does nothing. perfect example is Jason Taylor. Phil Daniels gets injured late, and the skins definitely need a defensive end. so Snyder goes out and fills a need. was it the right move? probably not. but he did what he thought was right.

This is sort of like acting on the principle of Ready - - Fire - - Aim.


Doing something even if it is wrong is not always a good thing. Spending money on the wrong players is not a good idea. Go read the column that started this thread and look at all the great signings that resulted from Danny Boy "spending money" (Bruce Smith, Jeff George, Deion Sanders to name just a few.)


I would much rather have Danny Boy spend less money and spend it more wisely.


OH, and by the way, it was Danny Boy who personally bragged to a Wash Post reporter doing a Sunday Magazine feature story on him that HE was the one who "found" Patrick Ramsey and made sure the team took him with the Skins' first pick. Sure, Dannhy Boy owns the team and that's his right. But tell me how that all worked out.


Oh, I forgot. Ramsey was ruined by Steve Spurrier or else he would be a Pro Bowler by now.


Well, if anyone still thinks Ramsey can play, we ought to get him in free agency this year because in the last 3 years he has only thrown 52 passes so his arm should be fresh and ready... Oops, that would mean that Colt the Wonder Kid might not make the squad next year. Bad idea. Sorry.

[The Goat]

Originally Posted by Paintrain

What travesty is that? Did the Snyder smear cause him to get fired in Jacksonville also? The legend of GW is greatly exaggerated. He did a nice job statistically a few seasons, but we were never a game changing defense. Never had a lot of sacks, turnovers or defensive TD, things that actually matter on the field rather than in the paper.

From an old thread I started:

I'll admit upfront I was one of the few Skins fans who really, really believed Gregg Williams should have been promoted to HC within about 24 hrs of Gibbs retirement. As the JLC article (link below) points out, and I think we all knew it whether we liked or disliked Williams, the man who took this defense from an abomination to a top 10 d for three of his four years held immense respect from players, coaches and staff. I think it spoke volumes when players (from both sides of the ball if memory serves) expressed disappointment that he was not retained as the team's leader.

I'll also admit I thought Saunders deserved, based on the preponderance of evidence his long career makes available, the opportunity to be sole commander of the offensive scheme/playcalling for at least one full year. We will remember JC got the opportunity to observe at the end of last season how Saunders offense could engender some real success, and to boot w/ a less talented QB in Collins at the helm.

Snyder clearly chose to take the team in a very different direction, and I'm not just spewing sour grapes here... just give this another thought. As I've gotten more and more sick to my stomach at what has happened to the team I've searched out old articles, reread a lot of material. The JLC article I linked really struck me in January; however the following excitement of Zorn's hire put it to the back of my mind.

Gregg Williams - Expect Him To Withdraw Saturday - Redskins Insider

When I read it again (yesterday and about 10 times since) it strikes me even more. With Gibbs, the coach w/ the highest character any of us can think of, still packing his things at Redskins Park Snyder had already regressed into the immature, characterless goon he was 4 years earlier. While my heart goes out to nearly all of the players and most of the coaches (and us fans) over what has happened, I believe Snyder deserves the worst franchise in football. The smear campaign was a testament to his utter lack of decency, and while I don't really believe in Karma either... we reap what we sow.

Just don't mistake me. I have all the hope in the world Zorn has great success as our HC... my point (the forest through the trees as I see it) is beyond Zorn I doubt very much a quality, high-character guy will go to work for Snyder. Curious to know what you think...

Here's the actual link: Gregg Williams - Expect Him To Withdraw Saturday - Redskins Insider

[The Goat]

jeez that color is lame... didn't look that way in the little box. sorry everybody.

[Bishop Hammer]

Thank you Spence; I have been saying that for years. For the life of me I can not see why so many people stick by Snyder? Sure he gets the blame for some things that are not his fault but the vast majority of the Skins past screw ups have been mainly him.

After he fired Marty to hire "Spurious" I knew either he had no idea how to run an NFL franchise or just didn't give a hoot.

Sadly he has not changed I our beloved Redskins might very well continue to be the Chicago Cubs of football.

[Bishop Hammer]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

I think it's silly to bring up 1999-2003. It's pointless. Gibbs has to take some responsibilty for some of the bad moves the team has made while he was here. And it doesn't seem Snyder is nearly as involved as Davis and Jones. But if Snyder REALLY wanted to win bad enough, he'd go out and get some people who really knew how to put a team together. Floyd Reece has been sitting out there for a while now. Why isn't he here in some capacity? Reece has as much experience as anyone out there. I know a lot of you out there will frown on it but Casserly knows the league and has helped put together SB winning teams. Why isn't he here? IMO Snyder doesn't want to win bad enough.

"Gibbs has to take some of the responsibility"! JG only led the Skins to the playoffs twice in 4 years here. How many of Snyder's other coaches can say that? How many can say they even lasted 4 years here for that matter?

The fact that Gibbs came up one game shy of making the NFC Championship under Snyder is a testiment to Joe's coaching genius.

But you are right that there are GMs availiable who could do a better job than "Dan the Man". Reece would be a big upgrade to whoever is running the show. Or someone from the Patriots FO. Really anyone who would tell Snyder "Butt out, sign the checks and let me do what I was hired
for." Sadly that will never happen because Snyder would never hire someone who would do that.

Another reason why Cerrato is the only GM who Danny boy want to work with. Cerrato has shown some idea of what he is doing but has not shown the testicular fortitude to tell our beloved dictator to handle the financial side and he'll do the football part.