Next years QB

[NYCskinfan82]

^^ nicely stated.

[Defensewins]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

In fairness, in the last two seasons, Griffin has also (1) missed an entire offseason due to his ACL injury; and (2) missed significant time due to an injury that would been a season ender for most folks. In addition, the nature of the injuries required an alteration to the way he fundamentally played the position (i.e. couldn't rely on his explosiveness and escapability any more).

Trust me, I fully get the guys faults when it comes to reading defenses, working progressions, holding the ball to long, receptiveness to coaching, etc. At the same time, neither he nor Kirk have separated themselves from the other in terms of their play - each is flawed. From his athletic ability, arm-strength and potential for improvement as he (hopefully) learns to be more of a drop back style QB, I would suggest Griffin still has the higher upside than Kirk who is playing the same offense (essentially) that he played in college and is making the same mental mistakes he made then.

At this point, neither is someone you look at and say "Oh yeah. He's The Guy." I believe Griffin gets the nod, not b/c of his draft cost/status, but b/c he simply is (still) the more physically gifted player at the position.

While Griffin is a work horse when it comes to working out and getting fit physically. I can not say the same thing when it comes to the mental part of playing QB in the NFL. Proof is in the fact he is in his 4th year (?) and he is mentally...not ready. With all that time he missed due to injuries, that you talk about, he did not come back any more prepared mentally.
I was disappointed to hear Gruden had to dummy down the playbook/game plan for Griffin. I hope he comes back better than ever. I would be ok giving him another chance in 2015 but his attitude has to change. His inflated ego could not fit through the locker room door.
The biggest thing for me is there has to be a real competition at EVERY position. No free rides please. That shit I hope is gone now that we have a new GM. I do not want to see Gruden being told who he should start at QB.
Our Head coach and GM should decide who starts, not someone else.

[JoeRedskin]

^^ I think it's been made very clear that Griffin is the starter in name only at this point (as CRed' stated in his post) and that, for all intents and purposes, it is an open competition.

[Chico23231]

Originally Posted by Defensewins

While Griffin is a work horse when it comes to working out and getting fit physically. I can not say the same thing when it comes to the mental part of playing QB in the NFL. Proof is in the fact he is in his 4th year (?) and he is mentally...not ready. With all that time he missed due to injuries, that you talk about, he did not come back any more prepared mentally.
I was disappointed to hear Gruden had to dummy down the playbook/game plan for Griffin. I hope he comes back better than ever. I would be ok giving him another chance in 2015 but his attitude has to change. His inflated ego could not fit through the locker room door.
The biggest thing for me is there has to be a real competition at EVERY position. No free rides please. That shit I hope is gone now that we have a new GM. I do not want to see Gruden being told who he should start at QB.
Our Head coach and GM should decide who starts, not someone else.

Last year made it clear that yet again that Snyder clearly is still meddling with football decisions. He should have zero input into any personel decisions on the football field. none, Snyder deserves zero respect when it comes to football acument.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by redskinsfan1980

I think that Kirk Cousins could be good if he had a running game, bigger targets, and a defense. Last season he through a lot of picks, but he threw some tds too. I think he'll be benefit under a second season in the offense. We should have a open qb competition. As far as I'm concern RG3 hasn't shown me anything that would suggest that he's a franchise qb. He does have tremendous talent. So I'm not going to count him out. But I'm not optimistic about him or his future. If RG3 is named the starter it should be because he beat out all the other qbs on the roster. Our decision to start him shouldn't have anything to do with how much we gave up for him. I have a feelings that RG3 will be the starter because we want all of those picks we gave up to pay off. And not because he's the best qb on the roster.

Pretty much sums it up. The glitter of RG3 wore off for me in 2013 when his weaknesses were there for everyone to see. Not to mention all his off season antics.

[skinsfan69]

Originally Posted by Defensewins

I do not think it is accurate to just look at the stats that you put up and think is a realistic and legitimate comparison. You are only as good as who you play against, in this case they are Qb's, so what defenses did they play against?
Cousins played against two of the top defenses Seattle and Cardinals. two average defenses Giants and Eagles and one bad one Jax. Won 1 and lost 4. But he threw 10 TD's and 9 int's.
RGIII Played against 4 bad non-playoff teams: Tampa, Houston, Minnesota and Jax and one good team in SF. Did not win a single winnable game and most embarrassingly threw 2 td's and was sacked a ton.
Another huge factor the stats do not show is Gruden did not run the same plays for all three QB's. I remember even Griffen complaining very loudly on the sideline to Coach Gruden after he was replaced for Cousin, saying 'why didn't you call those plays for me when I was in?'
Clearly RGIII was being protected from himself and his inability to absorb and play the entire playbook. Gruden called a more simplified version of the playbook for Griffen because he could not handle it. Cousins was asked to do a lot more, proof is the fact that RGIII completing 21 more passes but Cousins threw for more yards and a lot TD's.

I would say 90 percent of Redskins fan fail to realize this. Griffin basically has a pre season offense installed for him. He's not good enough to run the offesne KC has to run. Yeah KC turned it over but he also made a ton of plays too. Griffin even complained about KC having a different offense for the Cleveland game in 2012.

[over the mountain]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

I would say 90 percent of Redskins fan fail to realize this. Griffin basically has a pre season offense installed for him. He's not good enough to run the offesne KC has to run. Yeah KC turned it over but he also made a ton of plays too. Griffin even complained about KC having a different offense for the Cleveland game in 2012.

I would say 90 percent of skins fans DO realize this.

[Defensewins]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

I would say 90 percent of Redskins fan fail to realize this. Griffin basically has a pre season offense installed for him. He's not good enough to run the offesne KC has to run. Yeah KC turned it over but he also made a ton of plays too. Griffin even complained about KC having a different offense for the Cleveland game in 2012.

What really disappoints me the most about this particular subject is that Griffin does not get it. His bitching and whining to Gruden ain't gonna change this. He has to earn it on the field.
So he needs to follow the old school way of 'shut your HUGE mouth, put your head down and concentrate on the work in front of you. Listen to your coaches. Don't talk back to your coaches, they know more than you. Do not open your mouth again until you are promoted to the big boy playbook that the other QB's on your team are running.

[JoeRedskin]

Originally Posted by skinsfan69

Yeah KC turned it over but he also made a ton of plays too.

... just like he did in college. As Lotus (and others) are fond of mentioning, Cousins is, in many ways, Rex Grossman 2.0 - scary streaky. You almost can count on him to make a two gut wrenching turnovers a game.

Here's the thing for me - both KC and RGIII need to change from who they were in college and who they have been in the pros.

For RGIII, he has to transition from an entirely different way of playing the game and adapt his considerable talent to a style of play he has not only never mastered but has never really learned. IF he can dedicate himself to learning to be different from the QB he has always been, accept his NFL coaches coaching and finally put behind him all the "He's fine, his mechanics are good" enabling he gets from Tedford and Bryles, then maybe, maybe he gets his deep ball mojo back and his low turnover/sack ratio that he had back in college (look at his TD/INT ratio in college - it was insane. Yes, I know, it was a spread offense and, for the spread offense, QB's usually have very good TD/INT ratios). It is all on him - as others have said - to dedicate himself to the film room, listen to the coaches, and accept that he has to walk through an NFL offense before he run it. ---- If he can do all that, his ceiling - even in year four (the guy just turned 25 in February!) - is simply much, much higher than Kirk's.

For KC, he has to figure out how to stop throwing picks. He needs to change something in how he views the field, works his progressions, or makes his decisions. My problem is that, unlike RGIII's flaws, I just don't know that there is anything that coaching can do to change KC's basic inability to consistently avoid picks. Sure, Gruden dumbed down the offense for KC but KC's constant turnovers completely stymied Gruden:

[About what was causing KC's interceptions]“I don’t know. If I knew, I wouldn’t call those plays,” Gruden said. “They’ve come in bunches. The fourth quarters haven’t been very good to us and I think those are the most important times for us to make plays and get the win.

“I don’t know if he’s forcing them too much or just maybe hesitating on a couple of them. Sometimes you force them, sometimes you just miss the throws … Some of it’s an accuracy issue, some of it’s a footwork issue, some of them are just not believing in what he’s seeing, and some of them are forced.”

Jay Gruden Can't Explain Kirk Cousins' Interceptions

So, on one hand you have a QB currently incapable of running a pro offense and who has clearly identifiable flaws that may be fixable with solid coaching and a player dedicated to change - a trait the player has not readily demonstrated.

On the other, you have a QB who has a higher floor but is also deeply flawed. Further, it's not even clear that there is a path to fixing his flaws because he has been making the same mistakes throughout his collegiate and professional career and there is no clear, identifiable teaching/coaching point to correct them.

Quite frankly, as much as I truly hope Griffin can get it together and The Guy - I just don't know if he ever will be able to do so. As for KC, I just don't see him ever losing his knack for throwing untimely interceptions - it's just part of who he is.

[30gut]

Originally Posted by Defensewins

I do not think it is accurate to just look at the stats that you put up and think is a realistic and legitimate comparison.

Well the stats I posted are specifically in response to this article: How to make Robert Griffin III a pocket passer - Washington Redskins Blog - ESPN

Where Kiem brought up the topic of 'time in the pocket' and the stats I posted are a realistic comparison in that specific area of production based on time in the pocket.

Another huge factor the stats do not show is Gruden did not run the same plays for all three QB's.

I agree that there are a multitude of factors that come into play (for any stats) including the time in the pocket stats. And yeah I agree that the playcalling for the different QBs impacted their performance (and that's a whole 'nother ball of wax).

However this......

I remember even Griffen complaining very loudly on the sideline to Coach Gruden after he was replaced for Cousin, saying 'why didn't you call those plays for me when I was in?'

When did this happen? Could you post a source or link or report or something?
I'm not saying it didn't but I follow the skins closely and we all know that Griffin is under a huge national microscope where everything that is said or tweeted is on NFL Network how, if true, would something like this go unnoticed or unreported?

Clearly RGIII was being protected from himself and his inability to absorb and play the entire playbook. Gruden called a more simplified version of the playbook for Griffen because he could not handle it. Cousins was asked to do a lot more....

I can occasion pass a few of my opinions or thoughts off as accepted fact but aren't you taking a quite a few large leaps here?

Jay Gruden himself commented that Griffin knows the playbook but that he [Jay] was still searching for a gameplan that fit him [Griffin]. I don't think its fair or accurate to say or even guess at 'thee' reason why Jay called plays a certain way and its easily arguably as to whether his playacting/gameplan was right/wrong.
You can assign blame where you want.

Cousins and Colt are obviously more comfortable in playing in Jay's style of West Coast passing game (rhythm drop back progression timing based offense). Colt played in a pure WCO with the Browns and Kirk played in a 'pro-style' rhythm timing offense at Michigan State. So it should be no surprise that they were more comfortable more quickly in Jay's offense. However; what's missing is the accompany delta in production from Kirk. Based on comfort in the offense both should have a more evident separation in production but its only really evident with Colt in the over 2.5s time in pocket category.

[over the mountain]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

As for KC, I just don't see him ever losing his knack for throwing untimely interceptions - it's just part of who he is.

for what is worth, 6 of KC's 9 ints last year came when we were down by 9 points or more.

Why isn’t Kirk Cousins getting a shot to start? - The Washington Post

[diehardskin2982]

KC can win you the game in the 4th quarter. He can be bated into throwing picks. RG is shell shocked after the 2 injuries to he lower body. In his first season I saw him look off defenders, go through progressions and find the open man. After he was hurt, he changed. became unaware in the pocket and stopped looking downfield.

My hope is that we trade for Phillip Rivers or Mike Glennon.

[SolidSnake84]

Originally Posted by Defensewins

While Griffin is a work horse when it comes to working out and getting fit physically. I can not say the same thing when it comes to the mental part of playing QB in the NFL. Proof is in the fact he is in his 4th year (?) and he is mentally...not ready. With all that time he missed due to injuries, that you talk about, he did not come back any more prepared mentally.
I was disappointed to hear Gruden had to dummy down the playbook/game plan for Griffin. I hope he comes back better than ever. I would be ok giving him another chance in 2015 but his attitude has to change. His inflated ego could not fit through the locker room door.
The biggest thing for me is there has to be a real competition at EVERY position. No free rides please. That shit I hope is gone now that we have a new GM. I do not want to see Gruden being told who he should start at QB.
Our Head coach and GM should decide who starts, not someone else.

I agree with your whole post but you are dead wrong if you believe that the GM Hiring changes everything. It starts at the top. As long as DS is owner, he is going to tell his guys who they are playing. And if they don't like that, or they feel like maybe they should have a voice, then they took a job working for the wrong organization.

Griffin starts this year and for as long as DS is willing to pay him. And that's fact.

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by SolidSnake84

I agree with your whole post but you are dead wrong if you believe that the GM Hiring changes everything. It starts at the top. As long as DS is owner, he is going to tell his guys who they are playing. And if they don't like that, or they feel like maybe they should have a voice, then they took a job working for the wrong organization.

Griffin starts this year and for as long as DS is willing to pay him. And that's fact.

What proof do you have to make that a fact?

[CRedskinsRule]

Originally Posted by JoeRedskin

... just like he did in college. As Lotus (and others) are fond of mentioning, Cousins is, in many ways, Rex Grossman 2.0 - scary streaky. You almost can count on him to make a two gut wrenching turnovers a game.

Here's the thing for me - both KC and RGIII need to change from who they were in college and who they have been in the pros.

For RGIII, he has to transition from an entirely different way of playing the game and adapt his considerable talent to a style of play he has not only never mastered but has never really learned. IF he can dedicate himself to learning to be different from the QB he has always been, accept his NFL coaches coaching and finally put behind him all the "He's fine, his mechanics are good" enabling he gets from Tedford and Bryles, then maybe, maybe he gets his deep ball mojo back and his low turnover/sack ratio that he had back in college (look at his TD/INT ratio in college - it was insane. Yes, I know, it was a spread offense and, for the spread offense, QB's usually have very good TD/INT ratios). It is all on him - as others have said - to dedicate himself to the film room, listen to the coaches, and accept that he has to walk through an NFL offense before he run it. ---- If he can do all that, his ceiling - even in year four (the guy just turned 25 in February!) - is simply much, much higher than Kirk's.

For KC, he has to figure out how to stop throwing picks. He needs to change something in how he views the field, works his progressions, or makes his decisions. My problem is that, unlike RGIII's flaws, I just don't know that there is anything that coaching can do to change KC's basic inability to consistently avoid picks. Sure, Gruden dumbed down the offense for KC but KC's constant turnovers completely stymied Gruden:



Jay Gruden Can't Explain Kirk Cousins' Interceptions

So, on one hand you have a QB currently incapable of running a pro offense and who has clearly identifiable flaws that may be fixable with solid coaching and a player dedicated to change - a trait the player has not readily demonstrated.

On the other, you have a QB who has a higher floor but is also deeply flawed. Further, it's not even clear that there is a path to fixing his flaws because he has been making the same mistakes throughout his collegiate and professional career and there is no clear, identifiable teaching/coaching point to correct them.

Quite frankly, as much as I truly hope Griffin can get it together and The Guy - I just don't know if he ever will be able to do so. As for KC, I just don't see him ever losing his knack for throwing untimely interceptions - it's just part of who he is.

Sadly a good breakdown of where we are. I am a tiny bit hopeful that actually having a full time QB Coach will move one of these two, KC/RG, up in the ranks, but right now it looks like we have only managed to do what the Redskins do so well - get stuck in 2 qb mode.