ESPN Say's Newton To Enter Draft

[30gut]

Originally Posted by BuckSkin

Dang it 30, I get it.....you think Locker is the choice at 10....This is the Cam Newton thread...granted you alone didn't take it off course, but you have managed to force it down a singular path. I appreciate your infatuation with stats and draft knowledge, but damn man......relax.

Well, Dang It BuckSkin it frustrates me when people like you make false assumptions about what I think.

First of I gotta call BS on your false finger pointing and whining.
My posts in this thread included complete game passing charts and assessments not of Locker but of Gabbert and Newton.
Other then my initial response to Dirtbag which contain more info about Gabbert then Locker you'll only find 1 other post about Locker which again was a response to Earthquake.
Since you appointed yourself the resident fascist I don't think 2 post warrants this level of whining.

Since you appear to follow my posts you should see that my post are usually responses to specific statements that other members post that I think are false or inaccurate.

And btw-If you haven't realized it yet this is actually an interent discussion forum so people are gonna have discussions.

I appreciate your concern but why don't you worry less about policing my posts and bring some football discussion to the table yourself.
Because that's why I post to discuss football not to bicker.

Hail

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by wilsowilso

It seems like you haven't watched Locker play very much if at all.

How about this take. Over the eight or nine years that Pete Carroll was at USC which was by far and away the biggest NFL factory of the last decade Carroll says that Locker is the best QB USC ever faced in his entire tenure at college footballs biggest powerhouse.

When a coach with that much experience with NFL caliber players says something like that you have to ask yourself who is a better person to evaluate a PAC 10 QB? There is no one more qualified and I mean no one on planet Earth.

Locker is a really talented football player and he has elite tools.

Sure he could be a bust, but that happens plenty with can't miss QB's.

Seattle Seahawks acquire San Diego Chargers' Charlie Whitehurst - ESPN

[EARTHQUAKE2689]

30 We will have to agree to disagree and Locker to me is the 5th best QB in this draft to me. But I do respect your view on him and skinfaninok as well. He just seems like a complete bust, not Ryan Leaf bad though. Also, there is a reason his draft stock has plummeted so much.

[Terpfan76]

Originally Posted by Lotus

Isn't that like saying that "He has everything that a team needs in a #1 receiver except for speed, agility, and hands"?

No, it's nothing of the sort. His accuracy issues may stem from footwork or a something in his throwing motion. Perhaps it's something coaches can fix, perhaps not. We don't know. What the scouts seem to know however is that he has damn near every other quality you would want in a franchise qb. Your example would be less absurd if you said "He has everything that a team needs in a #1 receiver except for elite speed".

Draft Robert Quinn or trade down.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Terpfan76

No, it's nothing of the sort. His accuracy issues may stem from footwork or a something in his throwing motion. Perhaps it's something coaches can fix, perhaps not. We don't know. What the scouts seem to know however is that he has damn near every other quality you would want in a franchise qb. Your example would be less absurd if you said "He has everything that a team needs in a #1 receiver except for elite speed".

Draft Robert Quinn or trade down.

There are plenty of recent examples though of receivers lacking elite speed, and going on to have productive if not pro-bowl level careers. Conversely, quarterbacks that lack fundamentals tend not to have the same success. Accuracy can be "fixed" if the problem is simple mechanics causing inconsistency, but in Locker's case, his problem is not that he has enjoyed flawed success where he over/under shoots a little too frequently, but rather, lacks basic pocket competency. The fact that he can't complete passes at an acceptable level will not be fixed because it's a trait of his passer profile.

I'm not saying that it's theoretically impossible to succeed in spite of that, but he would be the first in the modern NFL to do so.

[Terpfan76]

So what would be your idea of accurate then? How do you define it? What numbers are you looking for?

Personally, I feel a lot of his accuracy issues may well stem from the quality of protection he had. The guy may well have had issues in the pocket due to the fact that he rarely ever had time to make his reads and got hit enough to become gun shy or hurried. He's the type of qb you take with the idea of giving him at least a year to sit and learn. Let him play in low stress situations where any mistakes he may make will have no impact on the outcome of the game so he can get a feel for the speed of the NFL. If you are drafting Locker to start in 2011, you're making a mistake. If you are drafting him to play in 2012 or 2013, then you just may be on to something. Honestly, none of the qbs in this class should be looked upon as 2011 starters, they just aren't that good.
I am however curious about Pat Devlin and intrigued by the Dalton kid. I'm interested in seeing how they all compare at the combine.

[30gut]

Originally Posted by EARTHQUAKE2689

30 We will have to agree to disagree and Locker to me is the 5th best QB in this draft to me. But I do respect your view on him and skinfaninok as well. He just seems like a complete bust, not Ryan Leaf bad though. Also, there is a reason his draft stock has plummeted so much.

Well of course we have to agree to disagree no one is out here trying to change each others minds.
For me if I see a post that I believe makes states or assumptions that I disagree I'm gonna respond.
No harm meant.
Has Locker's actual draft stock dropped or its perception has dropped?
B/c I'm of the belief that players actually scout and team evaluation don't change very much.
The draftnik community? Well that's a different story.

BTW-Blaine Gabbert seems like a total bust.

j/k
But you see how a statement like that can be made about any prospect? Its just kinda of an empty way to take a jab at prospect you don't like.

[30gut]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Conversely, quarterbacks that lack fundamentals tend not to have the same success. Accuracy can be "fixed" if the problem is simple mechanics causing inconsistency, but in Locker's case, his problem is not that he has enjoyed flawed success where he over/under shoots a little too frequently, but rather, lacks basic pocket competency. The fact that he can't complete passes at an acceptable level will not be fixed because it's a trait of his passer profile.

I'm not saying that it's theoretically impossible to succeed in spite of that, but he would be the first in the modern NFL to do so.

LoL, here we go again.
So you have Locker's issues clearly figured to a certainity?
'Lacks basic pocket competency'
And now its a 'fact' that he 'can't' complete a number of passes that you deem 'acceptable'

If you exclude Locker's freshmen and his sophmore (injured week 3 missed rest of season team went 0-12) under Willingham his comp% is 56.8%.
Which would put him just a hair ahead of:
Matt Stafford: 56.6%
it puts him a hair behind
Josh Freeman: 57.9%
and not that far off from
Matt Ryan: 59.3%
Jay Cutler: 60%

In fact Locker has a lot in common w/ those QBs guess who:

Guess who scouting report this is:

Negatives: Inconsistent accuracy from the pocket and throwing on the run. Needs to anticipate downfield throws better, sometimes getting the ball to his receiver a second early or late. Makes poor decisions trying to make plays that aren't there, leading to turnovers. Doesn't feel back-side pressure. Lacks touch on shorter throws. Ball comes out of his hands poorly at times, negating his arm strength. Sometimes pats the ball before the throws. Loose with the ball in the pocket and as a runner. Doesn't move the pile as you'd expect in short-yardage situations, but his height allows him to be effective

Negatives: Can get fundamentally lazy... ... Though he has an efficient overall release, should be able to speed it up for underneath screens passes to take better advantage of the surprise to the defense. ... Sloppy footwork. ... Will get lazy and throw off his back foot, which could lead to turnovers in the NFL... ... Willing to throw into tight spots, though more often than not he places the ball where it needs to be... ... Not great accuracy on crossing routes. ... Too often leads his receivers too far or forces them to reach back, slowing their momentum and limiting their ability to generate yardage after the catch.

NEGATIVES:.......lacks top pass placement and has receivers extending vertically to pull the ball out of the air. Must improve his accuracy down the field. Lacks top footwork releasing the ball off a three step drop. Lacks pocket stature.

[30gut]

Originally Posted by Terpfan76

Personally, I feel a lot of his accuracy issues may well stem from the quality of protection he had. The guy may well have had issues in the pocket due to the fact that he rarely ever had time to make his reads and got hit enough to become gun shy or hurried.

I concur.
I think if Locker was as well protected as some of the other top QB prospects the perception of him would be different.

I am however curious about Pat Devlin and intrigued by the Dalton kid. I'm interested in seeing how they all compare at the combine.

I'm not high on the Devlin kid I think people make the Flacco connection for obvious reasons but people forget that Flacco has a hand cannon that he showed off at the combine.

I like the Dalton in a second tier group of QBs after Newton, Gabbert, Locker and Mallett.

But, I like Stanzi and Ponder more...
My reasoning on Ponder/Stanzi:

While Ponder's isn't a great athlete he's a better one then people realize (better then Stanzi imo) and I suspect has a better arm then people think.
*For some reason especially around draft time people start talking about elite arm strength as if its the average in the NFL but its not.
There are plenty of good QBs w/ average arm strength; hence the term average but I digress.
I think Ponder has adequate NFL arm strength at least as much as Colt McCoy.
He has good size.
He's a senior in an pro-style offense those 2 traits are bug pluses for him.
As a senior he should be more of leader, playing in a pro-style offense he has experience doing some pre-snap reads and following progressions from under center while executing 3-5-7 step drops.
Ponder's footwork is clean and light, he has a solid consistent throwing motion.
He's been well protected and has experince getting to his 2nd and 3rd progressions.
But.
He has those injury concerns w/ his shoulder.
Despite being a 4 year player in a pro-style offense doesn't have bigtime production or efficieny numbers.(compared to Locker w/ only 2 years in a pro-style offense w/ limited talent the efficeincy numbers aren't significanlty different imo)

Stanzi shares the same traits I mentioned as positives for Ponder.
But, imo Stanzi has classic over the top throwing motion w/ the bigger arm then Ponder and proto-typical size w/o injury concerns.
Early in this draft thread I had to remind my boy Steve that 'pick 6 rick' was up there w/ everyone's darling Andrew Luck from an efficiency stand point.
And although Stanzi is also well protected he wasn't given the Fort Knox type protection afforded to Andrew Luck.
Although the great american isn't a great athlete he moves around pretty good and can throw on the run.
The main thing keeping him from the top tier QB in my eyes is lack of elite arm strength and limited playmaking ability.
But seems like a post 2nd round-mid-round QB that can come in and execute your offense w/ efficiency maybe even as rookie (ala Kyle Orton).

Neither here nor there but his over the top throwing motion and size and number remind of Brady (note I'm not saying he's the next Brady).

[BuckSkin]

In reviewing this thread 30 I'm willing to concede it was not you who led this thread astray. However there is a difference between the mere mention of a QB and the inculcation of one. I've neither the time nor desire to argue through the next 5 pages on pocket accuracy, footwork or intangibles of Locker. It'll just end in your frustration of not being able to convert me to the Locker camp. BTW, I prefer discouraged Nationalist over whiny fascist.

[diehard]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Seattle Seahawks acquire San Diego Chargers' Charlie Whitehurst - ESPN

Will it be possible to trade McNabb after the draft if teams are making moves before?

[EARTHQUAKE2689]

Originally Posted by 30gut

Well of course we have to agree to disagree no one is out here trying to change each others minds.
For me if I see a post that I believe makes states or assumptions that I disagree I'm gonna respond.
No harm meant.
Has Locker's actual draft stock dropped or its perception has dropped?
B/c I'm of the belief that players actually scout and team evaluation don't change very much.
The draftnik community? Well that's a different story.

BTW-Blaine Gabbert seems like a total bust.

j/k
But you see how a statement like that can be made about any prospect? Its just kinda of an empty way to take a jab at prospect you don't like.

Just something about Locker says bust to me. Of course Gabbert could be as well but in my view he would be the "safer" (if you can call it that) pick.

[Chico23231]

Originally Posted by GTripp0012

Seattle Seahawks acquire San Diego Chargers' Charlie Whitehurst - ESPN

lolololol. good point.

No excuses for such bad accuracy from Locker. Alot of those bad throws in the NFL are gonna be picked off. I think what you have to remember is, with college QBs, you have to squeeze throws in between defenders or on tight coverage occasionally in a game. In the NFL, you do that on every drive as a QB. I dont see how people expect Locker to suddenly just become 60-65% passer when he makes this NFL jump. I dont see it happening.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by 30gut

LoL, here we go again.
So you have Locker's issues clearly figured to a certainity?
'Lacks basic pocket competency'
And now its a 'fact' that he 'can't' complete a number of passes that you deem 'acceptable'

If you exclude Locker's freshmen and his sophmore (injured week 3 missed rest of season team went 0-12) under Willingham his comp% is 56.8%.
Which would put him just a hair ahead of:
Matt Stafford: 56.6%
it puts him a hair behind
Josh Freeman: 57.9%
and not that far off from
Matt Ryan: 59.3%
Jay Cutler: 60%

In fact Locker has a lot in common w/ those QBs guess who:

Guess who scouting report this is:

Just to venture a guess, let me go: Flacco, Cutler, and Rodgers at the bottom.

56.8% is a poor completion percentage at the college level, but once you remove the excuse of using a players formative years in college to deflate completion percentage, it is absolutely atrocious.

I could see, perhaps, the Stafford comparison in terms of accuracy, but Stafford hasn't exactly lit it up in the pros, justifying the use of a high pick on someone similar like Locker.

[GTripp0012]

Originally Posted by Chico23231

lolololol. good point.

No excuses for such bad accuracy from Locker. Alot of those bad throws in the NFL are gonna be picked off. I think what you have to remember is, with college QBs, you have to squeeze throws in between defenders or on tight coverage occasionally in a game. In the NFL, you do that on every drive as a QB. I dont see how people expect Locker to suddenly just become 60-65% passer when he makes this NFL jump. I dont see it happening.

I think it's a exercise in delusion. I wish someone would go and make the argument in favor of low completion percentage players who made it big in the pros, rather than trying to act like Locker is not the player everyone thinks he is.

Derek Anderson (drafted in 2005) completed only 50.7% of his college passes. Is he good? No. Was he good? Never. But he at least went to a pro bowl. And Locker for sure will be better than Derek Anderson.